Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom? A Question from a Heretical Bapt

[JawgeFromJawja]

Quote:

Bob said:

Is 66 tells us that the SABBATH is for "ALL MANKIND" and even states that for all of eternity ALL MANKIND will "come before God to Worship" from "Sabbath to Sabbath".

Quote:

George said :

Even so, there is no mandate for gentiles to keep the Sabbath in Isaiah 66. The phrase "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means daily worship of God. In ordering daily worship of God, what other day the week would you have expected Jewish Scripture to use?Which is not to detract from the importance of Sabbath for Jews.

The text of Isaiah 66 does not say "daily shall all mankind come before Me to Worship".

The text says that "From Sabbath to Sabbath" shall "ALL MANKIND" come before Me to worhip.

That shoots the idea of "just the Jews shall worship from Sabbath to Sabbath" as well as the idea that this worship was a daily event.

Exegesis is everything. Isaiah is writing to readers who know very well that the phrase "from Sabbath to Sabbath" is not the OT way of saying "every day".

Thus it would have been impossible for the Sunday-keeping Adventists to turn a blind eye to this Bible argument in favor of honoring God's memorial of His creative work in Genesis 1 and 2.

The objective unbiased readers are going to sit up and take note of these simple obvious Bible facts.

Quote:

George said -

[color:#000099]Yes, I hope they will take note of these simple obvious Bible facts, which I feel that Adventists far over read.

Well you will have to make a case for what you suggest. Merely suggesting it does not provide the Bible support you need.

In any case the Sunday-keeping Adventists found no way to turn a blind eye to these bible texts on the subject of God's creation memorial and thus they chose to join the Seventh-day Baptists in honoring God's own Holy Day.

BTW - my ancestors are from Norway and in their language Saturady is "Lord's Day". So I wish you a blessed Lordag today.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, you write "The text of Isaiah 66 does not say "daily shall all mankind come before Me to Worship".

Well, yes, it does. Unless you want to take a terrible burden on yourself.

Abingdon Bible Commentary, published by the Methodist publishing arm, but a common reference used in all seminaries including Adventist, does take the position that

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

means exactly what it says. "From --- to" is a common and well established English expression meaning "at the start of ________ to the start of ________, blank meaning a spacial or temporal location, includes the time or the space between "from" and "to". If you want to publish your own dictionary of common usage, okay. And you may even eventually be able to start a trend. But for now, Common usage of that phrase means everything between "from" and "to". Look at these interpretations:

Isa 66:23 God's Word From one month to the next and from one week to the next all people will come to worship me," declares the LORD.

Isa 66:23 New English Bible And month by month by the new moon, and week by week on the Sabbath, all mankind shall come to bow down before me, says the Lord.

Here the meaning is from the end of one week (Sabbath is the end of the week) to the end of the next, etc.

God's Blessings,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Pkrause, there is no Scriptural mandate that all people keep the Sabbath. Please show me the verse if you think so. Nobody has yet done so.

The Jews before Christ had a tradition of The Noachian Law. Those laws included no blasphemy, no worship of idols, no killing, no stealing, honesty, and sexual purity. The Noachian Law does not include keeping the Sabbath. Jewish tradition has it that Gentiles who keep the Noachian Law in good faith are righteous in the sight of God. God's purpose for Israel was to act as a nation of priests for God. When Israel taught the Noachian Law, they were doing just that.

Highest regards

Originally Posted By: pkrause

Good Sabbath Jawge. Others have already given those verses, that mention "all mankind" so I'm not gonna give them again. The no worshiping idols, stealing, etc., are all in the 10 Commandments.

No the Jewish nation was to be an example as what we should do. As was Jesus, an example of what we should do.

So than why does it say in Rev 14 that his people at the end just before he comes, would be keeping his commandments? Are those just the Jews? He's talking about!! Than I would guess the rest of you will not be ready if he comes in our life time! Because you wont be keeping all of his commandments!

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I have many rebuttals to this post, pkrause. Please do not take the rebuttal personally, for I respect you above many participants on the forum.

In essence, you are saying that only those following the Adventist doctrines have a chance for salvation when Jesus returns.

PK is quoting Rev 14 and Rev 12 on the subject of the saints keeping God's Commandments at the end of time.

Your response is to argue with the text saying that if the bible is true then only Adventists would be saved at the very end of time - at the 2nd coming.

Is PK supposed to then edit the Bible to make it fit some alternat scenario?

Your argument is with the text.

PK is not saying that only SDAs are saved as it stands now.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, God's commandments for Christians are found throughout the New Testament. None of those New Testament catalogs of Spirit led commandments includes Sabbath keeping.

One example of those catalogs is from Galatians:

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Does this verse, 5: 14 require explanation?

Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

This is in Elizabethan English, but the meaning is quite clear. We are no longer as Christians bound by the law. We are under the guidance of The Holy Spirit to act in LOVE in all circumstances. A catalog of proscribed behavior follows:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Then behavior in accordance with The Holy Spirit's Guidance follows:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Which is not to say that libidinous, licentious, evil thoughts do not occur to the Christian. Under The Holy Spirit's guidance, we do not act on those thoughts, and they occur less and less frequently under His Guidance.

God's blessings

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of being "under the law"?

It means "under the curse of the law" and is speaking to the lost who prior to coming to Christ are condemned.

But for the saints "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

For the saints "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15.

For the saints "They keep the Commandments of God" Rev 14.

For the saints "do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

For the saints we have the New Covenant and the "Law of God written on the heart" as we see in Heb 8.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

in Christ,

Bob

Okay, Bob, you are under the curse and burdens of the Law. Quite understandable, because you are an Adventist. Personally, I believe what Paul says for we non-Adventist Christians, that we are not under the curse and burdens of the Law. I hope you, the Catholic Church, and others who trust at least in some degree that salvation depends on works do understand that no truly born again Christian uses the Grace of Faith as an excuse to live as loosely as desired - such behavior would be contrary to Paul's teachings in Galatians 5 and elsewhere.

God's blessings,

[Gerr]

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

This is in Elizabethan English, but the meaning is quite clear. We are no longer as Christians bound by the law. We are under the guidance of The Holy Spirit to act in LOVE in all circumstances. A catalog of proscribed behavior follows:

Ans: Gerry

Christians who are not under or bound by the law are the ones who are keeping the law! Jesus said: "If you love me, you WILL keep my commandments." Jn 14:15 ESV. And, "...love is the fulfilling of the law," Rom 13:10 ESV. The Holy Spirit who prompts believers, Jew or Gentile, is the one who writes the covenant law in their hearts & minds, Heb 8:10.

Quoted by Jawge:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ans: by Gerry: Notice that all these works of the flesh that bar ANYONE that do them from inheriting the kingdom of God are ALL violations/transgressions of the principles of the 10c.

Jawge:

Then behavior in accordance with The Holy Spirit's Guidance follows:

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Which is not to say that libidinous, licentious, evil thoughts do not occur to the Christian. Under The Holy Spirit's guidance, we do not act on those thoughts, and they occur less and less frequently under His Guidance.

Gerry: Which is another way of saying, those led by the Spirit of God who writes the law in their hearts & minds, are keeping the law of God!

[Gerr]

Okay, Bob, you are under the curse and burdens of the Law. Quite understandable, because you are an Adventist. Personally, I believe what Paul says for we non-Adventist Christians, that we are not under the curse and burdens of the Law.

I find this statement rather curious because the Bible plainly states: "Behold, ALL SOULS are mine.....the soul who sins shall die," Ezk 18:4 ESV. "For the wages of sin is death..." Ro 6:23 ESV, and, "...ALL have sinned," Ro 3:23 ESV, "...Jews AND Gentiles alike are ALL under sin," Ro 3:9 NIV. So whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, if you transgress the law you are condemned to die!

Jawge:

I hope you, the Catholic Church, and others who trust at least in some degree that salvation depends on works do understand that no truly born again Christian uses the Grace of Faith as an excuse to live as loosely as desired - such behavior would be contrary to Paul's teachings in Galatians 5 and elsewhere.

Gerry: Hmmmm. Adventists keep 10c/10c and you say they are to some degree depending on their works for salvation. Are you saying that non-SDAs can keep the 10c - 1, but yet are not depending on any works but grace alone? If you can get by on grace through faith on 9/10, why not on 8/10, or 5/10, or even 0/10? Very strange reasoning to me, Jawge! Faith WORKS through love (Gal 5:5), and if you love, you fulfill the law (Ro 13:10). And if you love, you will keep the ALL the commandments, Jn 14:15. The fact is, Paul plainly states: "For by works of the law NO human being will be justified in His sight..." Ro 3:20 ESV. Whether Jew or Gentile, ALL are justified by Grace alone, Ro 3:28-30. But Paul also says: ESV | ‎Ro 2:13 "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." Saved people are NOT saved because they obey. They obey BECAUSE they have been saved!

ESV | ‎Re 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple.

Notice that John saw only ONE ark of the covenant in God's temple in heaven, not one for Jews and another for Gentiles, because there is ONLY ONE covenant and ONE law for Jew or Gentile. Gentiles, the "wild olive shoots" (Ro 11:17) are grafted into the same tree that has ONE and the SAME sap that nourishes ALL the branches.

[BobRyan]

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of being "under the law"?

[BobRyan]

Pkrause, ...

I have many rebuttals to this post, pkrause. Please do not take the rebuttal personally, for I respect you above many participants on the forum.

In essence, you are saying that only those following the Adventist doctrines have a chance for salvation when Jesus returns.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Gerry Cabalo posted:

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Okay, Bob, you are under the curse and burdens of the Law. Quite understandable, because you are an Adventist. Personally, I believe what Paul says for we non-Adventist Christians, that we are not under the curse and burdens of the Law.

Gerry replied:

I find this statement rather curious because the Bible plainly states: "Behold, ALL SOULS are mine.....the soul who sins shall die," Ezk 18:4 ESV. "For the wages of sin is death..." Ro 6:23 ESV, and, "...ALL have sinned," Ro 3:23 ESV, "...Jews AND Gentiles alike are ALL under sin," Ro 3:9 NIV. So whether you are a Jew or a Gentile, if you transgress the law you are condemned to die!

George retorted:

Curious? What about your post?

The soul that sins shall die? Yes, as you pointed out, and we are reminded of that by Paul:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death,

But you did not complete the verse, the most beautiful part of the verse:

but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yes, Gerry, that is an awfully prominent “but”. Salvation is a gift. Salvation is free.

Gerry posted that Jawge posted:

I hope you, the Catholic Church, and others who trust at least in some degree that salvation depends on works do understand that no truly born again Christian uses the Grace of Faith as an excuse to live as loosely as desired - such behavior would be contrary to Paul's teachings in Galatians 5 and elsewhere.

Gerry:

Hmmmm. Adventists keep 10c/10c and you say they are to some degree depending on their works for salvation.

George:

It would seem that way, would it not, if you trust that keeping the Old Covenant Law is necessary for salvation? At the end of this post, I have several questions. I request as many as are willing to answer them, for I still have an uncomfortable feeling that many Adventists trust in works rather than Grace through faith.

Gerry:

Are you saying that non-SDAs can keep the 10c - 1, but yet are not depending on any works but grace alone? If you can get by on grace through faith on 9/10, why not on 8/10, or 5/10, or even 0/10? Very strange reasoning to me, Jawge!

George:

Not so strange, Gerry. First of all, look once more at Galatians:

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

All the law? Is not Galatians 5: 14 clear, even though here written in Elizabethan English? Which brings up the point I was trying to make earlier. You apparently did not grasp the point I was making, which is understandable: on this forum alone we are overwhelmingly bombarded by the concepts and beliefs of others.

Let me state it again – those who believe that an element of works is required for salvation often seem to believe that those who believe in salvation by the Grace of God through faith use that belief as a license to sin. Such is not the case, as we are told over and over in the New Testament:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Rom 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Rom 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Rom 10:5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

Rom 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

Rom 10:7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Rom 13:13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

George:

I am under the New Covenant, the Covenant taught by Jesus Christ. (See Matthew 19: 15: 21. ) I do not mix and confuse that Covenant with the Old Covenant, which was patently given to the Jews. See my next post.

In Christ,

George Collier King

Faith WORKS through love (Gal 5:5), and if you love, you fulfill the law (Ro 13:10). And if you love, you will keep the ALL the commandments, Jn 14:15. The fact is, Paul plainly states: "For by works of the law NO human being will be justified in His sight..." Ro 3:20 ESV. Whether Jew or Gentile, ALL are justified by Grace alone, Ro 3:28-30. But Paul also says: ESV | ‎Ro 2:13 "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified." Saved people are NOT saved because they obey. They obey BECAUSE they have been saved!

ESV | ‎Re 11:19 Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple.

Notice that John saw only ONE ark of the covenant in God's temple in heaven, not one for Jews and another for Gentiles, because there is ONLY ONE covenant and ONE law for Jew or Gentile. Gentiles, the "wild olive shoots" (Ro 11:17) are grafted into the same tree that has ONE and the SAME sap that nourishes ALL the branches.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

You say "oh no it was not... it was only made for Jews and not FOR mankind".

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I said that only Jews are MANDATED to keep the Sabbath. Anyone else who wants to keep the Sabbath can.

The "ten suggestions -- if you feel like it?" even in the OT??

How did you get there?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

What I said is that Sabbath Keeping was mandated for Jews, not Gentiles.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath..shall ALL MANKIND come before Me To Worship" Is 66.

You grossly misread and misunderstand the meaning of Isiah 66: 23. You must start at the beginning of the verse:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

[JawgeFromJawja]

By the way, I am not, and have not been, in the "Baptist camp" for many years. I thought that was apparent. George Collier King is his own free moral agent. (NUTS! That's the definition of a Baptist. So confusing. Baptists believe in the priesthood of the individual.

Indeed.

And you are the one who introduced yourself as a Baptist here - who am I to doubt you?

... I honestly believe you are not listening to The Spirit.

Agape

Well I am blessed by the fact that people on both sides of this Sabbath/Sunday debate are listed here as seeing the points clearly - that you claim to turn a blind eye to when they do not fit your preference.

The objective unbiased readers as sure to "notice".

It is way things are.

in Christ,

Bob

[Overaged]

[Neil D]

Dear Jeorge

I started reading your posts regarding the Sabbath...I see where you started equating the Sabbath with the Law...[all well and good, btw] and showing bible texts supporting your stance. This subject is long and boring to me...There are many words and proverbs alludes to the confusion that takes place when there are many words on a subject.

When there are texts on the Law and it's application to law [yeah, notice the difference in "big Law" vs "little law" and how it somehow makes on righteous or perfect..it's just too much to nail down...Too many words.....

Jesus says in John, " I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you." At the time of the utterance of these words, Jesus was talking to his disciples, his friends. He told them that the servant [us] is not greater than the master [Him] AND that we should to as He did. While He did wash the feet of His disciples, the principle that can be taken from this is that our Example is also the role model for all of us. To use a vernacular, He's THE Man, man....[smile]

Paul mentions that there are examples left for us to immolate. In Corinthians, he mentions this passage-

" Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

On Covering the Head in Worship

I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you."

Everything that Paul expouses is taken from Christ's example. IOWs, all of Pauls writings [and they can be confusing, as Peter has said that they 'were hard to understand'] can be made plain by what Christ plainly did.

Peter also made mention of Jesus being our example.

" To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

“He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”"

Peter, also showed that Christ was our model in all things..How do suffer while doing good, how to do the right thing, Jesus was our "Doityourself guide" on right living..Being the righteous model...

So, John mentions Jesus as our example, Jesus Himself says that we are to follow Him, Peter says that Jesus is our example, and Paul, many times says -

Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

So, when it comes to the Sabbath, Jesus has a custom...He had a tradition....He went to church on the Sabbath...

Luke 4:16

He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom.

Jesus had a custom, a tradition, if you will call it that. It is that He honored the Sabbath Day by going to church...He did it on Sabbath, the seventh day...not the first day. He went to Church, not on a nature walk, not to the local pub, not to a university....but to a place where other people were gathered to worship God, aka church....

Ok, having said all that,[i know, I can be VERY LONG WINDED!!! sorry] ...I want to ask you...do you see a problem with Jesus as our example going to church on Sabbath from these texts?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Dear Jeorge

Jeorge? I am truly and inoffensively amused. A combo of Jawge and George? Or perhaps you are Hispanic, with this being an allusion to to the Spanish Jorge? (Pronounced Hore' hey).

Earlier protests to the contrary, I desire to reply to some posts within those posts. It is so much easier. My parenthetical posts will be in the color blue.

I started reading your posts regarding the Sabbath...I see where you started equating the Sabbath with the Law...[all well and good, btw] and showing bible texts supporting your stance. This subject is long and boring to me...There are many words and proverbs alludes to the confusion that takes place when there are many words on a subject.

You got that. Jesus said that his burden was light. I take that to mean all the things He wanted us to bear, including the doctrinal fluff.

When there are texts on the Law and it's application to law [yeah, notice the difference in "big Law" vs "little law" and how it somehow makes on righteous or perfect..it's just too much to nail down...Too many words.....

Jesus says in John, " I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you." At the time of the utterance of these words, Jesus was talking to his disciples, his friends. He told them that the servant [us] is not greater than the master [Him] AND that we should to as He did. While He did wash the feet of His disciples, the principle that can be taken from this is that our Example is also the role model for all of us. To use a vernacular, He's THE Man, man....[smile]

Paul mentions that there are examples left for us to immolate. In Corinthians, he mentions this passage-

" Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.

On Covering the Head in Worship

I praise you for remembering me in everything and for holding to the traditions just as I passed them on to you."

Yes, but. Jesus was a Jew, and we would expect him in that live to behave as a Jew. In Galatians, Paul's own teaching, Paul says

Gal 5:4 you whoever are justified by Law, you were severed from Christ; you fell from grace.

Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness out of faith.

I am justified only by by belief in the saving Grace of God provided through the sacrificial death of Jesus. Are you justified by anything else? Are you justified by the works of keeping the Law? Or are you truly born again, meaning that you you walk in The Spirit (a Biblical phrase loaded with meaning) of Love?

Gal 5:13 For, brothers, you were called to freedom. Only do not use the freedom for an opening to the flesh. But through love serve one another.

Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Lev. 19:18

Gal 5:15 But if you bite and devour one another, be careful that you are not consumed by one another.

Gal 5:16 But I say, Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh.

Are you falling into that trap of ceremonial versus moral Law? Other than having a physical division in the Ark of the Ten Commandments and the ceremonial Law, Torah makes no difference between the two divisions of Law. For God's people, Israel, the Jews, no other difference is made, and to imply that there is a difference is not on solid Scriptural ground.

Everything that Paul expouses is taken from Christ's example. IOWs, all of Pauls writings [and they can be confusing, as Peter has said that they 'were hard to understand'] can be made plain by what Christ plainly did.

Peter also made mention of Jesus being our example.

" To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

“He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”"

Peter, also showed that Christ was our model in all things..How do suffer while doing good, how to do the right thing, Jesus was our "Doityourself guide" on right living..Being the righteous model...

Including His keeping of Seders and other examples? Come on. This is is sophistry. No Christian, including Adventists, totally copy Jesus' example.

Our model in all things? Get real. Jesus was a First Century Jew.

Do you celebrate Passover? (With Seders)Jesus did.

Probably not.

Are you circumcised?

Being an American, you quite probably are. But many Adventists are not.

There are numerous other examples of Jesus' behavior, his example, that most Christians and most Adventists no longer follow. Your argument is quite specious, unless you want to be truly "under the Law" as prescribed in Torah.

So, John mentions Jesus as our example, Jesus Himself says that we are to follow Him, Peter says that Jesus is our example, and Paul, many times says -

Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

So, when it comes to the Sabbath, Jesus has a custom...He had a tradition....He went to church on the Sabbath...

Luke 4:16

He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom.

Jesus had a custom, a tradition, if you will call it that. It is that He honored the Sabbath Day by going to church...He did it on Sabbath, the seventh day...not the first day. He went to Church, not on a nature walk, not to the local pub, not to a university....but to a place where other people were gathered to worship God, aka church....

Ok, having said all that,[i know, I can be VERY LONG WINDED!!! sorry] ...I want to ask you...do you see a problem with Jesus as our example going to church on Sabbath from these texts?

No, I do not see that as a problem. Jesus was a Jew, and as such mandated to keep the Sabbath. What better way to keep the Sabbath than to attend church (synagogue)?

As a Gentile, George Collier King is not mandated to keep the Sabbath, by any promise, threat, or penalty.

Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Lev. 19:18

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.

Keeping the Sabbath is part of the Law. If a Christian is not under the Law, there is no mandate to keep the Law. Even so, there is a mandate to love one's fellow man.

You can post a rebuttal to this post. But your post will be one major hula hoop of an argument. Try not to make that argument too ridiculous.

In Christ, saved and justified by faith, and walking in The Spirit.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I never sin - Nope! Not me!!

I thought you said you were a heretic; now you say you are a Christian?

I don't know that someone is a Christian, just because they believe something - you have to become something, before you can name the name of Christ. [/quote']

Overaged, one is a Christian who publicly asserts and believes that Jesus Christ is one's savior through faith. Then the real Christian walks in The Spirit, manifesting love towards all mankind. Which is kinda hard to do with some mankinds! Which is one reason this ole Jawja boy DOES sin sometimes. Even so,

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

As for being a heretic, I am, to the Southern Baptists. As for the various flavors of true Christians, I don't believe God even recognizes the terms "heresy" and "heretic", which refer to beliefs, or lack of belief, in bland and inconsequential doctrines.

'N' I don' care what you say, you ole reprobate, you do sin:

1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Unfortunately, I have several Adventist in laws who are literally anxious about going to bed at night for fear of having committed some sin overlooked by them. This is the truth, and it is no joke. One of my missions is to reassure them in that anxiety, and to teach them that part of the Good News is the assurance of salvation:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

[Overaged]

Overaged, one is a Christian who publicly asserts and believes that Jesus Christ is one's savior through faith. Then the real Christian walks in The Spirit, manifesting love towards all mankind. Which is kinda hard to do with some mankinds! Which is one reason this ole Jawja boy DOES sin sometimes. Even so,

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

[Overaged]

BTW; I was just messin with you when I said I didn't sin...just trying to be comical; I think my wife says I sometimes do that.

[phkrause]

I know one Baptist who is so legalistic he cant even be in the same room with me

Can you blame him! Sorry I couldn't help it.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

.I want to ask you...do you see a problem with Jesus as our example going to church on Sabbath from these texts?

[color:#000099]No, I do not see that as a problem. Jesus was a Jew, and as such mandated to keep the Sabbath. What better way to keep the Sabbath than to attend church (synagogue)?

[phkrause]

hamilton-beach, it is interesting that 9 of the ten are for all but the one, the forth commandment is only for the Jews.

[Neil D]

As best that I can tell, it's the Sabbath question that current gentiles have the objection to...It is this commmandment that is attributed to Jew...It is interesting that the Sabbath was around before there was a Jew...and Jesus's comment that the Sabbath was made for mankind [from more modern translations] rather than man made for the Sabbath...

I phrased my answer less in the context of law, but rather it is in the Spirit, not by law, that we are aquited. It is not a debate over Law/works vs faith/righteousness. It is in the context of faith, ie the "date with the spouse/girlfriend" principle, that makes the most sense in keeping our walk in the Spirit.

[phkrause]

As best that I can tell, it's the Sabbath question that current gentiles have the objection to...It is this commmandment that is attributed to Jew...It is interesting that the Sabbath was around before there was a Jew...and Jesus's comment that the Sabbath was made for mankind [from more modern translations] rather than man made for the Sabbath...

I'm in agreement hb.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I know one Baptist who is so legalistic he cant even be in the same room with me

Can you blame him! Sorry I couldn't help it.

Ha ha, that's one smart Baptist, eh?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Overaged, one is a Christian who publicly asserts and believes that Jesus Christ is one's savior through faith. Then the real Christian walks in The Spirit, manifesting love towards all mankind. Which is kinda hard to do with some mankinds! Which is one reason this ole Jawja boy DOES sin sometimes. Even so,

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Your definition of a Christian is a little off-kilter; and certainly, 1 John 1:9 does not have to denote "public" confession.

Quote:

Unfortunately, I have several Adventist in laws who are literally anxious about going to bed at night for fear of having committed some sin overlooked by them. This is the truth, and it is no joke. One of my missions is to reassure them in that anxiety, and to teach them that part of the Good News is the assurance of salvation:

Well; it's not hard to point out a Baptist or two who are like this too. I know one Baptist who is so legalistic he cant even be in the same room with me

Overaged, what then is your definition of a Christian? Try to keep it simple, for the Lord said "my burden is light".

And yes, there are Baptists, Methodists, Catholics (particularly), even Episcopalians, and those of all Christian and non-Christian faiths who are terribly embroiled in trying to justify themselves by works. If they would only live in Love, AGAPE, the anxiety would be unnecessary.

I don't know many of them now. Most people in my present circle are Adventists.

1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Accepting the sacrificial gift of Jesus is all that is required.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

There are similar lists of The New Covenant commandments throughout the New Testament. Over and over, the message accompanying those lists is that if we walk with The Spirit in love, then we fulfill the Law. Even in the Elizabethan English of The King James Version, the message is so clear.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

The Royal Law? It is so simple. Any explanation of that statement is not only unnecessary, but also subverts the spirit of Jas 2: 8.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Overaged posted:

BTW; I was just messin with you when I said I didn't sin...just trying to be comical; I think my wife says I sometimes do that.

_________________________

"God created the world out of nothing; and as long as we are nothing, He can make something out of us." - Martin Luther

"Hearts that have been the battleground of the conflict with Satan, and that have been rescued by the power of love, are more precious to the redeemer than are those who have never fallen." COL 118

George:

Don't mess with my mind, overaged. I am an old man. You oughtta respect your elders.

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I know one Baptist who is so legalistic he cant even be in the same room with me

Can you blame him! Sorry I couldn't help it.

Gotcha message, pkrause. Now, was that nice?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

What a buncha issues. So many that it will be easier to respond to each issue in blue on the spot written.

Actually, the passages I referenced mandate only the Jews and those dwelling with them keep the Sabbath. But there is no restriction on Sabbath keeping by non-Jews.

Again, those passages are Exodus 19:25; Exodus 20:1, 2;

[color:#000099]

Had a Hittite or a Chinese or anyone else responded to God's call instead of Abraham, all those places where you see "Israel" would have said "Hittite" or "Chinese". It is quite natural that if our President addresses our nation, he would be referring to Americans. But if a Russian or a Filipino became American citizens, would a different American law apply to them? To paraphrase Paul, "Is Obama the president of native born Americans only? Is he not also the president of the naturalized foreign born also?" Jawge, that just doesn't make sense! E pluribus unum! Remember? ONE Lord. ONE God. ONE faith. ONE baptism. ONE covenant. ONE door. ONE mediator between God & man. ONE way of salvation.

Your analogy does not hold. Complicated, but not relevant. Have you heard about The New Covenant? The Scripture relevant to The New Covenant is found in The New Testament. Over and over in the new Testament, the message is that love, AGAPE, fulfills the Law. Jesus Himself in enumerating the required commandments, did not mention the Sabbath:

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Mat 19:22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

[color:#000099]The young ruler could not practice the ultimate requirement, unlimited love.

You will probably come back with the argument that keeping the Sabbath was so obvious that it need not be listed. But love being the requirement, all of those mentioned by Jesus were also obvious. Why not leave out murder, adultery, stealing, etc.?

Keeping the Sabbath would not have been an obvious commandment to Gentiles, yet when Paul list the required laws, the Sabbath is not among them.

The advent of Jesus life on this world put us all, Jews and Gentiles under a New Covenant. New to the Jews, and explicitly a Covenant for all mankind. Keeping that Covenant is so simple,

a requirement that we love.

And yet, and yet, and yet,apparently not so simple. There are many "mankinds" whom I find difficult to love. But it does get easier with increasing maturity.

ESV | ‎Is 56:6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant— ‎7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”

Again, we are under a New Covenant.

Since practically ALL of God's promises in the OT were addressed directly to Jews or Israelites that Gentile believers could not claim those promises?

Read The Torah. God made it quite clear that Sabbath keeping was a Jewish requirement. Tradition of The Talmud makes it quite clear that Old Testament Jews accepted Gentiles as righteous if they kept seven of the Ten Commandments, not including keeping the Sabbath (The Noachian Law). Such was their understanding of The Torah. For an understanding of

Noachian Law, see Judaism 101 on the web. There are several other very good Jewish sites discussing that topic.

Best regards,