Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom? A Question from a Heretical Bapt

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

You say "oh no it was not... it was only made for Jews and not FOR mankind".

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I said that only Jews are MANDATED to keep the Sabbath. Anyone else who wants to keep the Sabbath can.

The "ten suggestions -- if you feel like it?" even in the OT??

How did you get there?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

What I said is that Sabbath Keeping was mandated for Jews, not Gentiles.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath..shall ALL MANKIND come before Me To Worship" Is 66.

You grossly misread and misunderstand the meaning of Isiah 66: 23. You must start at the beginning of the verse:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

You say "oh no it was not... it was only made for Jews and not FOR mankind".

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I said that only Jews are MANDATED to keep the Sabbath. Anyone else who wants to keep the Sabbath can.

The "ten suggestions -- if you feel like it?" even in the OT??

How did you get there?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

What I said is that Sabbath Keeping was mandated for Jews, not Gentiles.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath..shall ALL MANKIND come before Me To Worship" Is 66.

You grossly misread and misunderstand the meaning of Isiah 66: 23. You must start at the beginning of the verse:

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: John317

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of being "under the law"?

Does Gal. 5: 18 mean that when people are led by the Holy Spirit, they don't need to obey God's law-- that they are free to sin?

How does it relate-- if at all-- to Romans 6: 1,2, 15?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I am back. As I said earlier, while under anesthesia I had a beautiful and positive dream about you guys and dolls of Club Adventist.

Under the Law? That would be an obligation to keep The "Law" of the Torah, which is the sum total of the Laws and directives found in the first five books of the Jewish and Christian Bible. That Law involves many complex explanations and exceptions, and penalties for breaking that Law are draconian (horrendously excessive). You can try to make a case for there being two sets of laws, the spiritual and the ritual, but if you try to make such a case, you will expel a buncha hot air meaning nothing, and having an exceptionally foul odor.

God said "If you Love Me - Keep My Commandments" John 14:15.

Of course he already gave His promises to those who "Love Me and Keep my Commandments" Ex 20:1-5 as part of the Ten Commandments.

No Wonder Paul could say "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

Thus in Romans 6 we find that even though "where there is no LAW there is no sin" yet we today are bound by the Bible command to "Sin not" - because if we choose to sin we are choosing to let sin rule over us - be our master - lead us to eternal death in the lake of fire.

Quote:

Romans 6

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,

13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you

became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,

18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.

Thus D.L. Moody is entirely correct to point to the same view of God's Law as Paul had "Do we then make VOID the law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31.

For as Paul points out in Heb 8 the very HEART of the NEW COVENANT is God's promise to "Write His LAW on our HEART" for as Paul said in Rom 2:13 "IT is not the HEARERS of God's Law that are JUST before God but it is the DOERS of the Law that WILL BE justiFIED ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will JUDGE the secrets of ALL mankind..." Rom 2:13-16.

However Paul also tells us that this is not acceptable to the lost person for the lost person does NOT "submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN he" Rom 8:8.

Quote:

Rom 8

5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.

6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,

7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,

8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Paul clearly identifies the view of God's Law that the lost person has in Rom 8:5-8. How curious that it is THAT view we often seen expressed by some of our fellow Christians!!

Truly instructive perspective from Paul on the Law of God for the unbiased objective readers.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, your interpretation, and that of others, is patently incorrect. You throw in a buncha verbiage that does not at all mean the same thing as quoted Scripture passages.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Galatians 5: 14 is so simple, and made even simpler by

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Those two verses are so simple as to not need interpretation.

Not under the Law? Paul is referring to the Law of his available Scripture, the Old Testament.

I admire Adventists for their commitment to keeping Saturday as the Sabbath. Such is between them and God - it is not a New Covenant requirement.

What saddens me is your ongoing patently false message that only Adventists and other 7th Day Sabbath keepers are saved, are justified by the blood of Jesus. May God help you in your misunderstanding.

God bless you,

[BobRyan]

Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself" is OT - Mosaic Law and did not "abolish the rest of the Bible" either at the time God gave it on Sinai - or any other time God refers to it.

Lev 19:18 as Christ said (and as the Jews agreed in Matt 22) is the foundation bedrock for God's Word - his Law. The argument is that it is a firm foundation - the argument is never that the foundation destroys the house built on it!

Rom 3:31 Paul argues that the New Covenant does NOT Abolish the Law of God "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid!! In fact we establish the Law of God"

1Cor 7:19 Paul says that for Christians "What matters is KEEPING the Law of God"

In Heb 8 we find that at the heart of the NEW COVENANT is the "LAW of God written on the heart" and that Law is in the context of Jer 31:33 "Law".

No wonder D.L. Moody affirms the continued authority of the TEN Commandments (ALL Ten).

No wonder both Any and Charles Stanley affirm the continued authority of the Ten Commandments "all ten".

No wonder Paul says in Heb 4 "THERE REMAINS a Sabbath rest for the people of God"

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

We may have a few ex or rogue baptists out there that need to spend more quality time listening to the Bible-valid points made by Charles and Andy Stanley when it comes to the 4th commandment.

Andy Stanley on the 4th commandment

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475224

Charles Stanley speaks out on the 4th commandment

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475203

Not to mention - D.L. Moody's great points on the subject of the 4th commandment.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Moody said

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

…

Someone has said that without the Sabbath, the Church of Christ could not, as a visible organization, exist on earth. Another has said that "we need to be in the drill of observance as well as in the liberty of faith." Human nature is so treacherous that we are apt to omit things altogether unless there is some special reason for doing them. A man is not likely to worship at all unless he has regularly appointed times and means for worship. Family and private devotions are almost certain to be omitted altogether unless one gets into the habit and has a special time set apart daily.

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

cts to lead to the ruin of the church and the nation.

In the quote above – Moody explores the suggestion that mankind will naturally “Worship every day:” even without a regular set 7th day of worship as commanded by Christ the Creator. He seems to have a point well made.

[Neil D]

Ooooh JawgeFromJawja ....

I was wondering where your reply might be......I know that you are dealing with legalists from my church and may have your hands full...But I was curious as to how you might also lump me in with the legalists, ...**IF **was being lumped in that catagory?

[John317]

Actually, the passages I referenced mandate only the Jews and those dwelling with them keep the Sabbath. But there is no restriction on Sabbath keeping by non-Jews.

Again, those passages are Exodus 19:25; Exodus 20:1, 2;

Would you tell a non-Christian-- someone who knows nothing about God or Christ-- to keep Sunday?

There would be no purpose in "commanding" or telling someone who doesn't know God to keep the Sabbath.

That's because Sabbath-keeping only has meaning if the person is first in a covenant relationship with the Creator.

See Isaiah 56: 1-7, where God gives the same invitation to keep the Sabbath to non-Jews as to Jews.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Ooooh JawgeFromJawja ....

I was wondering where your reply might be......I know that you are dealing with legalists from my church and may have your hands full...But I was curious as to how you might also lump me in with the legalists, ...**IF **was being lumped in that catagory?

I do not like labels. One person's legalist may be another's LEGALIST. There are many shades, not only of grey, but of any color. The true legalist will not admit to any spectrum of grays or other shades, whether they exist or not. Pity. Such has led to many an unjust death by torture, burning, hanging, or other fatal acts.

My standard for assessing how well Jesus impacted anyone is to try to measure the love shown in a particular action. But even this approach seems to involve a modicum of judgment. I suppose it is okay as long as we do not communicate that judgment to others.

God's blessings,

[John317]

I know that you are dealing with legalists from my church ....the legalists,....

As moderator:

It's OK to call people's positions or arguments "legalistic," but the rules of the Forum prohibit all name-calling of persons.

If you are able to call people "legalists," then other people can call you names. So there can't be any name calling allowed on the Forum.

[John317]

...I do not like labels. One person's legalist may be another's LEGALIST.

Thanks for your gracious and Christian attitude, Jawge. :-)

It is best, too, because one name opens the door to all name-calling.

[BobRyan]

We may have a few ex or rogue baptists out there that need to spend more quality time listening to the Bible-valid points made by Charles and Andy Stanley when it comes to the 4th commandment.

Andy Stanley on the 4th commandment

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475224

Charles Stanley speaks out on the 4th commandment

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475203

Not to mention - D.L. Moody's great points on the subject of the 4th commandment.

in Christ,

Bob

Better thread title for that link above for Andy Stanley -

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475262

[BobRyan]

Ooooh JawgeFromJawja ....

I was wondering where your reply might be......I know that you are dealing with legalists from my church and may have your hands full...But I was curious as to how you might also lump me in with the legalists, ...**IF **was being lumped in that catagory?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

No' date=' I do not see that as a problem. Jesus was a Jew, and as such mandated to keep the Sabbath. What better way to keep the Sabbath than to attend church (synagogue)?

Well, I see a problem with your logic....

[color:#000099']Please permit my replies to be in blue, under each point. It makes it so much easier to follow. This post wound up being very long, but there were multiple issues to comment on..

The problem is that you have equated Jesus as a Jew.

What? Either Jesus was a Jew or He was not. He kept Jewish traditions and Law. In fact, in John's Gospel, Jesus clearly said Salvation is of the Jews:

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

I see no problem in stating the obvious, that Jesus was a Jew. And why should equating Jesus as a Jew be in any way pejorative?

In fact, there are several problems with this....Aside from the fact that yes, Our Savior was born a member of the human race, from the nationality of Judah....but the bible distinctly says from Peter, James and Paul that Jesus was mankind's model...an example for us to follow.

Mankind’s model? In following the example of Jesus as a Jew? I strongly suspect the apostles meant for us to follow Jesus’ exanmple of love, not His Judaism. Please do not misinterpret this to show any degree of anti-semitism. Jews have proven themselves a loving and compassionate people throughout my life from childhood, when a Jewish merchant gave my father employment during the “Great Depression”.

Many scholars and quasi-scholars have difficulty in classifying Jews: a race, a nationality, an ethnic group, a religion, other? Since it is possible for a Gentile to convert to Judaism, the most logical classification to me is a religion. After all, Ethiopian Jews are black, and Asian Jews are mongolian. My religion is Christianity. As such, unless someone can show a more compelling reason than others have not so convincingly posted, I refuse to practice the Law, traditions, and customs of Judaism, a completely separate religion

Paul did...And you quote Paul and apply with some obscurity some texts to some elaborte, intricate logic / exegesis...My logic much simplier...Jesus is our example. We follow HIs customs...Seder, as you mentioned, was not mentioned. I honestly don't recall if He was circumcised specifically, but I suspect that He was, and if it was, it was out of His control, being a baby .

Seder not mentioned? What do you think Scripture meant when Jesus was protrayed as keeping the Passover?

Mat 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the passover?

Luk 22:8 And he sent Peter and John, saying, Go and prepare us the passover, that we may eat.

Joh 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

Joh 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him;

As far as circumcision, Scripture explicitly confirms this:

Luk 2:21 And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.

For a Jewish boy not to be circumcised would have brought shame on the entire family. One exception was made, that being for those boys born into families known to have bleeding disorders caused by maladies that we now diagnose as hemopililia and other similar problems.

Paul specifically says that Jesus was his example, then all his theology [specifically his letters] HAS to follow Jesus' customs...including the Sabbath....And his theology has to revolved around Jesus' customs...If it doesn't, then Christianity is a a farce...hyprocrisy at it's finest.

Please give Scripture for Paul’s telling us to follow Jesus customs and religious rituals, Sabbath, and customs.

I am notorious for admonishing that all Christians read The Bible cover to cover, repeatedly. Let me recommend that activity to you, if you have not already. It is amazing how many Christians have not done a read through even once. In the long run, it does wonders for one’s faith.

Hamilton-beach, one of us is so confused. I don’t think Paul ever said Christians have to follow Jesus’ customs, including the Sabbath. The whole book of Galatians addresses the fact that Christians have no obligation to follow Jewish Law, customs, and traditions. This ole befuddled man may be wrong, and if so, please enlighten me by specific Scripture. And even so, if you cannot show that Paul directed Christians to follow Jewish ceremony, Law, and customs, how does that make Christianity a farce?

Another problem that you have, is the slur that you use for Jesus....It's has to do with His Jewishness. You stated that Jesus was a Jew....as if it were something that is bad. I'm sorry, but Christians are not racist. This statement is racist. And I take offense that YOU, claiming to be a christian, would use racist slurs...You have a big problem there, Jeorge from Jawgia...

I am appalled if what I wrote either consciously or inadvertandly came across as racist. No slur was intended, and unless you misread something, no slur was written. You just do not know my life history. Once more, I love Jews. They are wonderful people. If it seemed to you that I used Jewishness as a slur, show me quick, for I would never want to even hint using a slur against God’s chosen people. My childhood, my college, and my medical school experiences would all have been much less rich without my relationships with my Jewish friends and employers. So please show me where I made a racist statement. I say “Nay, not so – God forbid!”, until you show me. To designate someone as being a Jew is not racist in my book. It is a medal of honor, a badge of courage.

I love Jews. I loved my Jewish medical school classmates, one of whom helped me obtain a job in my senior year. That Job paid the rent for my wife, my infant son, and myself.

Quote:

As a Gentile, George Collier King is not mandated to keep the Sabbath, by any promise, threat, or penalty.

Well, that does seem to be a problem if you want to follow your model, your example, Jesus....How can you claim to be follower if you don't emulate Jesus?

Good grief. I shall not emulate Jesus' Jewish customs. Such is not a requirement for salvation. I shall emulate (as much as possible, with many a slip) His example of love. Please prayerfully read the entire book of Galatians. Even if done in a studious mode, this can be accomplished in less than two hours. >

Quote:

Gal 5:14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Lev. 19:18

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under Law.

Is it ok for a Christian to lie? to steal? To murder? to take God's name in vain? If a Christian is not allowed to do those things, and as you said, the Sabbath is a part of the Law, then how can a Christian not keep the Sabbath? Jesus did...He was our model, even to the gentiles...

Not following the Law does not give license to sin. Once more, read all of Galatians, carefully. And Romans. It seems to me, an old man, an ignorant Georgia Bulldog at that, that we are not required to follow Jesus practice of Judaism. Understand me in this – there have been times in my life, before re-activating my Baptist Church activity, that I considered becoming a proselytized Jew. As God is my witness. I hope that cannot be taken as an oath, for in Matthew we are told not to swear at all:

Mat 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:

Mat 5:34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

Mat 5:35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

Refusing to take oath can be done legally in any court of law in our country: as a physician, I was from time to time subpoenad to testify in various cases (injuries, child abuse, etc). When the clerk offered The Bible, with the directive, “do you swear----“, my response was always to state, “I am committed to the truth. God tells us not to swear,” then quote Matt 5: 34 – 37.

Nobody in the legal system ever objected to that approach. Constitutionally, no one can object to one’s religious practice, as long as there is no threat to another’s welfare.

I know that you have this thing about the Law and love is the fullfilling of the Law...But the Sabbath is a date. Since when is not keeping the anniversary of your wedding a tiresome chore? Would your wife say so? Would she not say that it was a loving thing to do...remember the day of your wedding? [if you are married, you would understand this!]...Trust me when I say that to remember anniversarys are not a part of works but rather a very loving thing to do....neither was courting your future wife....If you were to make a date ["Meet you on Friday dear!"], and then missed it and attempted to meet her on another day["But dear, what's wrong with meeting you on Saturday? **I** choose that day instead of our agreed upon Friday."], she would look at you with rather distain.. Probaby more like a nutjob.

Hamilton-beach, Sabbath is a day of the week. Marriage is a Holy and civil bond of mutual trust. For Jews, and for Adventists and others who commit themselves to keeping it, Sabbath keeping is another, but totally different bond of religious commitment. It has nothing to do with marriage. For most Christians, it is not a mandate. It is not a salvation dependent requirement.

I am chuckling. My wife would chuckle, too. Don’t you know that all men are cavemen types, totally insensitive clods who constantly overlook the more important and genteel things of life? If not a majority, then at least a significant minority of men forget wedding anniversaries, birthdays, dates, holidays, and other important engagements without the pain of divorce. On the other hand, the very sensitive wife of my youth would never leave such affairs to me, particularly since I have adult attention deficit disorder. (Unfortunately, that is no joke. It’s a wonder I got through kindergarten, not to mention medical school. I refuse to take drugs for it. After all, it is only a variation of normal. My opinion only, but also that of a huge number of physicians. If such is a problem in your family, listen to your physicians.)

Quote:

Keeping the Sabbath is part of the Law. If a Christian is not under the Law, there is no mandate to keep the Law. Even so, there is a mandate to love one's fellow man.

I've addressed this quite reasonably. The Sabbath was never intended to be a part of the Jewish ritual of working toward heaven. It was a date...a day of meeting with God. That day was blessed and it was made when there was no Jew in existance. So, how could it ever be intended as a way to work oneself into heaven? Love is about relationships...Love is about emulating examples..aka following your Leader...and making dates with Him....

Quote:

You can post a rebuttal to this post. But your post will be one major hula hoop of an argument. Try not to make that argument too ridiculous.

OOooh, now you are just getting nasty....I've posted respectfully...I admit to being abit pointed, but never nasty...

If you took that as being nasty, my apologies. It was not meant to be nasty. All too many posters in trying to make a point provide prolonged, discursive, and irrelevant arguments. And many of their Scripture references are far afield of the topic at hand. One’s relationship with God, as a Christian, should not be complex. Once again, Jesus said His burden was light.

Quote:

In Christ, saved and justified by faith, and walking in The Spirit.

You are "In Christ", "saved" and "Justified by faith"...Well, since you posted that one seemingly nasty statement about me putting forth ridiculous arguements, I am going to say that we will see if your are "in Christ, and justified by faith and walking in the Spirit"....Your posts should be respectful, as most Christians should....

[color:#000099]The post was not meant to be nasty. At my vespers prayer this evening, I shall ask God’s forgiveness if there were rancor in my heart. I shall also ask God’s guidance in all future posts of mine, if indeed The Spirit guides this old curmudgeon to write any.

And I certainly ask your forgiveness for being insensitive. By the way, it is not your place “to see if [ I ] am in Christ, and justified by faith and walking in the Spirit.” That’s God’s judgment, and I am quite comfortable with my relationship with God. But you are correct: respect should be expected and given in any relationship.

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

You say "oh no it was not... it was only made for Jews and not FOR mankind".

[BobRyan]

We may have a few ex or rogue baptists out there that need to spend more quality time listening to the Bible-valid points made by Charles and Andy Stanley when it comes to the 4th commandment.

Charles Stanley speaks out on the 4th commandment

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475203

Not to mention - D.L. Moody's great points on the subject of the 4th commandment.

Here we have Andy Stanley - debunking some of the "Sabbath is dead" arguments of the less than biblical type.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475262

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

The problem is that you have equated Jesus as a Jew.

What? Either Jesus was a Jew or He was not. He kept Jewish traditions and Law. In fact, in John's Gospel, Jesus clearly said Salvation is of the Jews:

Joh 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

I see no problem in stating the obvious, that Jesus was a Jew. And why should equating Jesus as a Jew be in any way pejorative?

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

I know that you are dealing with legalists from my church ....the legalists,....

As moderator:

It's OK to call people's positions or arguments "legalistic," but the rules of the Forum prohibit all name-calling of persons.

If you are able to call people "legalists," then other people can call you names. So there can't be any name calling allowed on the Forum.

Hmmmmm.....yeah, I should have put the word Legalists in "quotes"....and by context, it was more of a teasing remark than an actual name calling....

So, because I forgot to put legalists in quotes, I appologize for that slip up....

...And John....is your putting words in my mouth because you don't like what I say? Just want to know....

[John317]

Hmmmmm.....yeah, I should have put the word Legalists in "quotes"....and by context, it was more of a teasing remark than an actual name calling....

So, because I forgot to put legalists in quotes, I appologize for that slip up....

No problem, hamilton-beach. :-)

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

...And John....is your putting words in my mouth because you don't like what I say? Just want to know....

I moderate the same whether I like what people say or not. It has nothing to do with whether I agree with what people are saying.

The rules are the rules, and I try very hard to be impartial, especially when it comes to personal attacks, name calling, etc.

I wrote the rules, and after a discussion, they were passed by 86% of the Administrators and moderators.

[Neil D]

I wrote the rules, and after a discussion, they were passed by 86% of the Administrators and moderators.

At the time of the vote, how many Adminstrators and moderators were there? How many now?

Just curious.....

[John317]

About the same-- maybe one or two more moderators now. One has left the forum, and one or two have been added since then. Administrators the same.

[Gerr]

Jawge, I have reviewed the thread and to me you have not adequately responded to this:

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Yes, Bro. Jawge, I have and do read the Bible prayerfully, and have come to the conclusion that the 4th commandment was meant for me also, not just the other 9. It is written:

ESV | ‎Ex 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

NIV84 | ‎Le 24:22 You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.’ ”

ESV | ‎Nu 15:16 One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

ESV | ‎Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

ESV | ‎Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If the 4th was only meant for the Jews, then so is the New Covenant and all the blessings that go with it. But as Paul said:

ESV | ‎Ro 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. ‎29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

ESV | ‎Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

If we are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus, then there CANNOT be but ONE LAW for ALL.

That's just fine for the aliens dwelling with the Jews, just as it reads. There is still no mandate for all mankind to keep the Sabbath. It just is not there. If you think so, please show me the specific verse. But salvation in Christ is verified in many passages in The Bible. I shall cite just one:

Just who are mandated to keep the 10 commandments? Are Gentiles exempted?

Who is the REAL Jew/Israel?

To be cont'd.

[Gerr]

Cont'd:

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

And WHERE does it say that it is ONLY for Jews?

Answer by Jawge:

Lot of places:

Actually, the passages I referenced mandate only the Jews and those dwelling with them keep the Sabbath. But there is no restriction on Sabbath keeping by non-Jews.

Again, those passages are Exodus 19:25; Exodus 20:1, 2.....

Using the same reasoning you are using, then how much of the NT epistles can you claim for yourself? Romans was written to the Romans, Corinthians to the Corinthians, Galatians to the Galatians, & Revelation addressed to the 7 churches, etc.

Same goes for the New Covenant; it was addressed to Israel & Judah, see Jer 31:331-34, Heb 8:8-11.

If the NC is addressed only to Israel & Judah as it reads, how do Gentiles come into possession of its blessings?

[Gerr]

John 3:17 That change is often called sanctification, the process of becoming more and more like Jesus. Not that we ever do it perfectly, of course. But what did Jesus do? He obeyed His Father's commandments. So becoming more like Jesus means we also obey our heavenly Father's commandments.

Jawge: You got it partially right. We become more like Jesus in living a life of love, being motivated by love. However, when in the flesh, Jesus was a Jew, an ethnic Jew from birth. You have a difficult task ahead of you if you intend to convince me or most other non-SDA Christians to become Jewish in attitude and behavior. Becoming Jewish is not necessary for salvation - Acts Chapter 15 and much of Paul's writings assure us of that.

Gerry: Let me repeat the question I brought up in a previous post - who is the real Jew according to Paul?

28 For you are not a true Jew just because you were born of Jewish parents or because you have gone through the ceremony of circumcision. 29 No, a true Jew is one whose heart is right with God. And true circumcision is not merely obeying the letter of the law; rather, it is a change of heart produced by God’s Spirit. And a person with a changed heart seeks praise* from God, not from people. Rom 2:28-29 NLT

So then, the Bible talkes about Jewishness on two levels: 1) literal, flesh & blood ethnic Jews 2) spiritual.

Circumcision for for the ethnic Jew "..has value only if you obey God’s law. But if you don’t obey God’s law, you are no better off than an uncircumcised Gentile." Rom 2:25 NLT.

So HOW does an uncircumcised Gentile become a Jew in the SPIRITUAL sense? ESV | ‎Ro 2:26 "So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?" Or as the NLT renders this same verse: And if the Gentiles obey God’s law, won’t God declare them to be his own people?

Now then, NO one is asking any Gentile to behave or have the attitude of an ethnic Jew, but every converted Gentile IS to have the attitude and behavior of the true spiritual Jew - one who has been circumcised in the heart, who obey God's law. Paul makes it clear in Rom 3:20 that this obedience is NOT the BASIS of salvation, rather it is the fruit/result of having received salvation, ESV | ‎Ro 2:13 "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified," and, ESV | ‎Jas 2:17 "So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead."

2 B Cont'd.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Part 1 of Summary to date of Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom?

This topic has been quite an experience. But what else but "an experience" could be expected on an Adventist forum that graciously allows an “off kilter” Baptist to posit comments on the Sabbath? ( That phrase “off kilter” was borrowed from one of Overaged’s posts. Overaged, you and I both know you are so correct about that phrase with respect to my position on Adventist, fundamentalist Baptist, and most Protestant demoninational doctrines. But not all of them. Besides, Scripture clearly shows that The Lord was off kilter – just read The Sermon on The Mount. If you cannot see where Jesus was off kilter in Matthew 5, 6, and 7, lemme know.

Now, let’s all take a deep breath, relax, and thank God for all blessings. For me, participating on this forum since last year has been a source of several blessings, one of which has been the development of several close friendships. Cyber friendships? Who woulda thought it?

Some of US wrote posts that were rather heated. But that’s okay. Most of us are human beings, not robots or soul-dead zombies. As long as none of us feels that participants would best be armed, and as long as we mutually agree on the established rules of Club Adventist, great! This ole Bulldawg likes a good scrap. Good scraps are one reason moderators were invented. (Thanks John317, for excellent and on kilter moderation. And thanks, Overaged and others, for being cyber friends.)

For you “grass eaters”, one of the benefits of reviewing topics by doctrinally off kilter wackos like me is to provide you with alternate views or reviews of theology. The point is not to change you, and hopefully not to ruffle your feelings, but to show that there are many honest shades of grey zone and colors in the beliefs of Christianity. My hope is that you accept professing Christians who accept The Gospel as summarized in First Corinthians Chapter 15 as born again Christians. Should you not like the term “born again”, see John’s Gospel Chapter 3. And should you not accept those who are in accordance with 1 Cor 15 as saved, no matter - God does. For those intelligent enough to be computer literate and internet savvy, meaning practically all on Club Adventist, exposure to heterodox views from different perspectives should help to strenghen your faith. By the way, I certainly did not invent the quasi-pejorative term “grass eaters”. Apparently a disgruntled Adventist created it decades ago. I have never spoken or written that phrase heretofore in any circumstance. My phrase of choice, likely invented by me, is “are you a meat eater or a wheat eater?” No Adventist in my circle has ever been offended by "meat eater or wheat eater". Pity the poor Catholic. The analogous phrase for them is “mackerel snapper”.

But I digress. Let me summarize my views on the Sabbath. If you have already commented on any particular view of mine, try not to be repetitive unless you think you have an additional cogent point to make. First a list reviewing my Scriptural based beliefs. Please do not post comments on the folowing list: post any comments you may have based on “Part 2 of a Summary of Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom?“

1. The seventh day was mentioned in Genesis, Chapter 2, but only as the seventh day, sanctified by God “because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made”.

In Genesis 2, no mandate given for any or all of mankind to keep the Sabbath. Not even Jews.

2. Keeping the Sabbath, as well as the other ritual Jewish Laws of The Torah, is not a mandate for Christians or other Gentiles, and was not mandated for Israel until their encounter with God at Sinai (Horeb).

3. Christians are not under the Law, but Christians are required to walk in The Spirit, which status does not permit murder, lying, lack of integrity in any relationship, sexual immorality, or theft. Contrary to what some may think, Christians do not have a license to sin, even if they do not consider themselves “under the Law”.

4. Spiritually proscribed behavior for we who walk in The Spirit is listed repeatedly throughout the New Testament. No passage in those New Testament lists of proscribed behavior even mentions keeping the Sabbath, even when Jesus provides the list. (See Matthew 19: 16 - 21, and other passages.)

5. My faith is based on Scripture alone, “sola Scriptura”. But not an “expanded” view of Scripture that allows “retrofitting” of later Biblical doctrines and directives into earlier Scripture. One could justify any and all doctirines if such doctrinal anarchy were valid.

God’s blessings,