Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom? A Question from a Heretical Bapt

[BobRyan]

Here is how a very well known Baptist (D.L Moody - perhaps you have heard of him) put this concept.

Quote:

D. L. Moody said --

THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly?

http://www.fbinstitute.com/moody/The_TenCommandments_Text.html

Here Moody likens rebellion against this commandment to the rebellion of Samson and asks each Christian to evaluate whether or not they may in fact be in rebellion against this Command of Christ the Creator.

As James points out – he who is in violation of one – is in violation of all.

Quote:

You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?

Again Moody shows this to be an issue of “obedience” in worship to God. He also makes the assignment James makes by claiming that to ignore this commandment is to “show contempt for God’s Law”

Quote:

Moody: --

I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.

"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)

It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.

Obviously according to this text Moody was aware of the suggestion that God’s Law has some how been broken/abolished/ended or taken away and addresses the Bible problem with such a suggestion. His conclusion is that Christ the Creator’s Sabbath commandment is even more necessary today than in the Garden.

Quote:

Moody

The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

Here Moody addresses another suggestion along the same lines – that the Commandments of Christ the Creator remain – all except for the CREATION commandment calling for worship of creation’s God – the Creator of all mankind and reminding us of the Creator’s act in making us.

It is that same emphasis and focus that we see in Rev 14 “Fear God and Worship Him who MADE the heavens and the Earth the Sea and the springs of water”

Quote:

Moody -

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

Though Moody does not apply the Mark of the Beast aspect of Rev 14 to this topic he does point to its role in what he expects to lead to the ruin of the church and the nation.

Quote:

Moody said

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.

…

Someone has said that without the Sabbath, the Church of Christ could not, as a visible organization, exist on earth. Another has said that "we need to be in the drill of observance as well as in the liberty of faith." Human nature is so treacherous that we are apt to omit things altogether unless there is some special reason for doing them. A man is not likely to worship at all unless he has regularly appointed times and means for worship. Family and private devotions are almost certain to be omitted altogether unless one gets into the habit and has a special time set apart daily.

In the quote above – Moody explores the suggestion that mankind will naturally “Worship every day:” even without a regular set 7th day of worship as commanded by Christ the Creator. He seems to have a point well made.

As a protestant, D L Moody almost certainly meant Sunday whenever he wrote or said "Sabbath", as did the Puritans and others.

[doug yowell]

Lucky for Moody he didn't live and preach in the past 40 years or he would've been run out of church on a rail for teaching that stuff. Today's righteous contentment disses anybody who suggests a mandatory need for a literal Sabbath rest. Bob, do you have a date as to when that was preached or published?

[BobRyan]

Did you see the post about Charles Stanley and Andy Stanley?

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475972

[whbae]

This is not to change the subject, but I can't pass this on.

One of Dr. Stanley's books he described how he started his radio ministry, tv ministry and his current church.

One would notice without exception when you listen or watch these christian ministries over the sound wave that you are urged to send in the donation. This applies to our SDA ministries as well. There is one exception. The Charles Stanley's program! You would never hear him or some one asking for donation.

When Dr. Stanley's church members urged him to set up the radio ministry he refused as he did not have the fund and did not know where to get it either. Finally, he decided to set it up asking God that this is His program and He has to provide the fund. Stanley said he was amazed how the fund came in without soliciting from unknown sources. He did the same with his tv ministry and expand his church buildings, etc. It is amazing to learn this kind of happenings.

Won

[BobRyan]

So it is helpful to have Charles Stanley proclaiming that the Sabbath was applicable to all mankind from Eden to this very day -

Even if the rest of his Sabbath argument is flawed - at least he is biblically correct on that part.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

Second Corinthians was less universally addressed than First Corinthians, but still widely directed.

If Paul's letters can be inclusive as to include "all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ...", then God's statement in ESV | ‎Is 56:6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant—" has to be viewed as just as inclusive. The "foreigners" clearly refers to Gentiles.

To argue a point from silence doesn't hold water because there is no direct instruction to Gentiles either that they can disregard one of the 10c. James says that if you break one of the 10c, you break them all, Jam 2:10. Jesus plainly said: ESV | ‎Mt 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill [GK plerosai - to make fullthem. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. ‎19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Again: ESV | ‎Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, ‎10 for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his."

That this rest is not only spiritual (Heb 4:3) but also literal is seen in Heb 4:4, which points back to His rest in Gen 2:2. So the invitation to ALL is: ESV | ‎Heb 4:11 "Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience."

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

I agree with Paul. I do not agree with your apparent interpretation of Paul's writings.

"Follow my example, as I follow Christ"s". The examples of both Jesus and Paul were basically to act in love, that is concern for the welfare of others, kindness, gentleness, patience, forgiveness, and integrity. These qualities have a Scriptural basis:

Ooh, Jawge, EVERYBODY agrees with Paul,...at least, everyone who disputes things in the bible....

You claim that both Jesus and Paul were acting in love and concern for the welfare of others, with kindness, gentleness ect....Ok, I also agree that they were doing those things..but that does not negate that they also kept the Sabbath, as I have shown in Scripture...They each kept the Sabbath, and were examples for those of us down the generational line....As I have said before, the Sabbath was "a date"... a time remembered ...to do those very acts of kindness that you have espoused...Why can not remembering a date with God and doing acts of kindness also be an act of faith, particularly if you are following the examples of Paul and Jesus....

I need an answer from you on this particular point...

I say again, they were both Jews. And with EMPHASIS, TO ME BEING A JEW IS NOT AT ALL DEROGATORY, NOT A PEJORATIVE, NOT

DEMEANING, AND IN NO WAY DEBASING. How in the world do you take my saying Jesus and Paul were Jews as being racist?

Quote:

Follow Paul in Traditions given the Corinthians? These would not nave been Jewish Traditions, but already established Christina traditions, such as the Eucharist or Lord's Supper.

Why not? If it was well known that the Sabbath was a time/date to be remembered, it would be assumed that this was to be passed on...and you have been shown many times that Paul kept the Sabbath, and shown that it was Jesus' Custom, ....and may I add, that scripture could have said "as required by the Law" but it didnt. [it is of interest to me that where things were required, scripture states that this is so...like Jesus' circumsions...] ...but this is worded differently...it specifically says that this was JESUS'S CUSTOM....not His father's requirement....why?

You need prayerfully to read all of Galatians. As Christians we are not under the Law. If you want to adhere to the Law, so be it. Such is not a requirement for Christians.

Again, with EMPHASIS, NOT BEING UNDER THE LAW DOES NOT GIVE CHRISTIANS A LICENSE TO SIN, BUT THE PROSCRIBED SINS AND THE CORRECT BEHAVIOR ARE REPEATED OVER AND OVER AGAIN BY JESUS AND OTHERS THROUGHOUT THE NEW TESTAMENT:

Start with Jesus' delineation of the Commandments in Matthew 19: 16 - 21, and read the entire New Testament, including Revelation 21: 8.

You will not find keeping the Sabbath required once, from Genesis to Revelation.

Quote:

Follow Christ in His traditions? Christ was a Jew, and on Earth he would have followed Jewish traditions, laws, and earthly traditions. In following Christ, Paul meant Christ-like love towards His fellow man, that behavior being taught and demonstrated by Jesus.

here is this racist remark again...this less than quality statements of a Christian...emphasis of his nationality rather than his humaness.....It amazes me that you insist that Jews were something special in God's eyes over the rest of the world. That they were divinely appointed to rule over the gentiles or have some special quality that endeared them to God. I maintain that they were special in the sense that they were a light to the nations, to show God's way. And that makes God interested in humanity, not nationality..[and lets face it, nationality is aa HUMAN tradition. God is much more gobal in his dealings with humanity.]But I digress...

Again, stating that Jesus and Paul were Jews is not a racist statement. Being a Jew is a religious, and possibly an ethnic statement. As far as nationality, Jesus was a Judean and Paul a Roman of the Province of Celicia.

Quite frankly, I cannot follow you in your writings about the Jews.

In your reasoning, since Jesus was a Jew and followed Jewish traditions, law and 'earthly traditions', then it follows that all the punishmenst and all the rewards in doing so fall on the Jews.....If that is the case, then salvation can never be for the human race....it is only for the Jews....And Jesus could never be our [gentile] example in anything...but, thank God, that is not what the bible say.

How do you respond to this logic?

I cannot follow this at all. Honestly. What are you telling us about Jews?

Quote:

If I understand you, you are saying that in addition to accepting the Gospel of Jesus'sacrificial death, salvation requires following any and all traditions and behavior of Paul and Jesus as described in the New Testament or as prescribed in the Old Testament. If I am mistaken in your interpretation, please clarify this statement,:

Not exactly, but it is close. I am saying, like you, "that in addition to accepting the Gospel of Jesus'sacrificial death, salvation requires following any and all traditions and behavior of Paul and Jesus as described in the New Testament".

Are you are saying that any professing Christian who does not keep the Sabbath is not saved? How about a direct and simple answer.

Further are you saying to be saved, one must accept Jesus' sacrifice AND follow all the traditions and behavior of Jesus and Paul? Again, a simple answer, please.

[i am excluding the OT]]

Quote:

Bob: "[Remember, I claim that my texts and stance is not by the law, but rather from faith. I take my stance from the example of Jesus...which is NOT from working my way into heaven, but rather from my understanding thru the Holy Spirit the example of Jesus...who was the model for all mankind...].

That statement could be read as supporting salvation by works, with faith in salvation by works.

First off, I am NOT BOB.....I am Hamilton-Beach. You may call me Hamilton...or Ham, for short.

Second, if the examples of Jesus and Paul were examples "of love, that is concern for the welfare of others, kindness, gentleness, patience, forgiveness, and integrity", then how can remembering to do them on a date set aside for this very purpose be considered as "supporting salvation by works"?

Looking forward to your reply on this sticky subject.....

My only comment to this is why limit good works to "a date set aside for this very purpose"? I think Jesus would agree to doing good works every day. Even so, all the works in the world will not merit salvation.

Best regards,

[BobRyan]

We may have a few ex or rogue baptists out there that need to spend more quality time listening to the Bible-valid points made by well known Baptists such as Charles and Andy Stanley when it comes to the 4th commandment.

Charles Stanley speaks out on the 4th commandment admitting that it applies to all mankind since the Garden of eden.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475203

Here we have Andy Stanley - debunking some of the "Sabbath is dead" arguments and admitting that the 4th commandment remains valid even to this very day.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475262

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

[Neil D]

[quote]

I say again, they were both Jews. And with EMPHASIS, TO ME BEING A JEW IS NOT AT ALL DEROGATORY, NOT A PEJORATIVE, NOT

DEMEANING, AND IN NO WAY DEBASING. How in the world do you take my saying Jesus and Paul were Jews as being racist?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

We may have a few ex or rogue baptists out there that need to spend more quality time listening to the Bible-valid points made by well known Baptists such as Charles and Andy Stanley when it comes to the 4th commandment.

Charles Stanley speaks out on the 4th commandment admitting that it applies to all mankind since the Garden of eden.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475203

Here we have Andy Stanley - debunking some of the "Sabbath is dead" arguments and admitting that the 4th commandment remains valid even to this very day.

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbth...html#Post475262

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

My only comment to this is why limit good works to "a date set aside for this very purpose"? I think Jesus would agree to doing good works every day. Even so, all the works in the world will not merit salvation.

Best regards,

Notice that Andy Stanley makes the case that it is the Saved SAINTS that are called to keep the Sabbath Holy - not the lost sinner.

The lost sinner is called to accept Christ.

Oh how many have the view of the lost sinner perfectly in view - and how few have Andy's more advanced understanding of the view of the saved saint.

in Christ,

Bob

2 points and a question:

1. Galatians strongly emphasizes that Christians are not under the Law. (However, Christians are subject to behavior delineated in The New Testament, which does not include keeping the Sabbath.)

2. I could not care less what Andy Stanley says about keeping the Sabbath. There Christians on both sides of the question of whether to keep the Sabbath. There are no new opinions on the question.

The question:

Do you believe that Sabbath keeping is a requirement for salvation? Please give a simple yes or no answer of your belief, not the belief of others.

Best regards,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Oh, Jeorge from Jorgia...

Where, oh, where is my reply>? Why did you leave me here all alone? I search the web over and I thought I found a believer...

You reply to another and [phttttt] you was gone.....

[sung to a tune from Hee-Haw]

Been busy. The wife of my youth keeps our two year old great granddaughter, meaning so do I. Not to mention winding up the non-literary clutter of getting a kiddie book published, original work on mind dynamics, and re-activating my medical practice on a limited basis. (Limit 4 patients daily, giving each all the time they need spiritually, mentally and physically. Some house calls, no hospital work, no emergency work.)

Hee-Haw? Great. Outlandish and corny as it was, Hee-Haw was a favorite of my wife and me in the 1970s. We usually prefer classical, easy listening,some religious music, big bands, folk, early rock,and Blue Grass (but not country and western). I play the Appalachian dulcimer.

Best regards,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

And keeping of Sunday by Christians, Sunday patently not being The Biblical Sabbath, is well documented from the earliest days of the Christian Church, even before the second century AD. The actual bottom line is that a mandate to keep the Sabbath was a part of the Old Covenant. It had nothing to do with the New Covenant.

Show the earliest unquestioned observance of Sunday by Christians.

It does not occur in the NT, and the Bible is our standard.

There was no change as regards the Sabbath between the Old and the New Covenants. The New Covenant was ratified at the cross. If there was going to be any change, it would have had to be BEFORE the New Covenant was ratified, not afterwards.

There's also no mandate not to make a carved image or to bow down to them in the New Testament.

Show the earliest unquestioned observance of Sunday by Christians.

Over the past ten years, I have looked closely at the work of a world class Adventist scholar, Samuele Bacchiocchi, PhD, who unfortunately died at a relatively young age, 70, three years ago. Regrettably, this Andrews University professor has many misinformed critics, many of whom have bought into a conspiracy theory - they charge him with being a Jesuit plant and spy. Surely an institution with the prestige of Andrews University does thorough investigations into the background and life of potential staff members.

I won't cut and paste the extensive web documentation of his work. He documented Christian Sunday keeping possibly as early as the first century AD (0 - 100 AD), and certainly as early as the early second century AD (101 - 200 AD). Other credible scholars have verified those dates.

I agree with him that the Sabbath of the Jews is Saturday, which he advocates keeping. I disagree, with Scriptural basis, that Saturday keeping is mandated for Christians.

The New Covenant was certainly ratified at the cross. I do not believe that New Covenant Scripture mandates Sabbath keeping.

Best regards to a fellow nerd,

[JawgeFromJawja]

JawgeFromJawja said-

Quote:

Eph 2:8 for by grace have ye been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 not of works, that no man should glory.

So gloriously simple. Yet so simple that some, apparently with a commendably strong work ethic, insist on injecting their work ethic into the requirements for salvation.

However, Jesus encouraged work for the Glory of God, even though not for salvation. Love for God impels the Christian to openly practice good works:

Mat 5:16 Even so let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Agape,

I agree with the above...We are saved by Grace thru faith. But I wonder, how can you say that Sabbath is a works orientated program? What is the Sabbath? If Sabbath is a time, then there is no working within a time, unless your faith is works orientated...Therefore, new testament Sabbath texts should reflect the idea that the Sabbath is a time and not the 'must keep Sabbath for salvation's sake?...Like when Jesus said that "the Sabbath was made for mankind, not mankind made for the Sabbath." or this one from Mark 3

3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, “Stand up in front of everyone.”

4 Then Jesus asked them, “Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?” But they remained silent.

5 He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, “Stretch out your hand.” He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored.

Was Jesus working His way to heaven or exhibiting faith for the common man?

Jesus left us an example to model our faith...Paul says that he follows Jesus's example, including traditions passed down...Since Jesus's custom was to go to church on the Sabbath, Paul also did the same thing from Act 17-

1 When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said......

So, based upon what I've said here, how can you determine if the Sabbath is kept by faith or by works...?

The Bible and The Holy Spirit tell me so. Paul being a Jewish Pharisee kept Jewish customs.

Agape and best regards,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Good post.

I believe there's a good reason that there's no commandment on keeping the Sabbath in the New Testament. The reason is that God doesn't want people to keep the Sabbath primarily, or only, because of a rule or command. The Sabbath at its root is a celebration of freedom.

God invites Christians to celebrate the Sabbath, and He had his prophets and apostles show plenty of evidence that the Sabbath is a part of the New Covenant. But if people want to reject God's gift, He has made it easy for them to do so. He won't compel people to find rest on His holy day. It must be by choice, not by force or merely because people are legally obligated to observe it. Hebrews 4 speaks of the Sabbath as a symbol of righteousness by faith, which is really what it is.

John, I just cannot see that the Sabbath is mandated by New Testament apostles and prophets. It is just not there.

To say that people of integrity who do not believe in a Sabbath keeping mandate are rejecting a gift of God is rather strong language, and is not at all clear in The New Testament.

Best regards,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Jawge, would you please give me your thoughts on these?

ESV | ‎Eph 2:11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— ‎12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. ‎13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. ‎14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility

ESV | ‎Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. ‎19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,

ESV | ‎Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. ‎29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

It is inconceivable to me, Jawge, that after Paul went through great lengths to emphasize the oneness of true believers that anyone would then proceed to make distinctions between Jew & Gentile. How then could you say there is ONE God, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE Head, ONE Savior, ONE gospel, ONE citizenship, ONE household, ONE body, ONE Mediator, ONE Law, and then proceed to say that Jews & Jewish Christians keep a 10c law and Gentiles only 9?

The oneness of true believers does not in any way verify Sabbath keeping.

Now don't get peeved or angry about this statement - it is the truth:

Sabbath keeping Christians dance around these passages, and their explanations are not convincing:

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Rom 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

< concerning the 4th Commandment>

Eph 2:15 KJV Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Somewhat wordy. This passage is clearer in the NIV:

NIV Eph 2: 15 by abolishing in His flesh the Law with its commandments and regulations.

Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Agape

[JawgeFromJawja]

Dear JawgeFromJawja

I need to point out some things that I feel are necessary in your position.

Correct me if I am wrong or make wrong assumptions...

I agree that the baptist's position is an emphasis on grace and the need to depend upon Christ sacrific...But where they go wrong is that they recognise that the Sabbath is a valid institution ....and instead of following Christ's example of keeping a specific day, they reject it. Why do Baptist reject the Sabbath?

This is where you go wrong, Ham: You assume that individuals with theological views contrary to yours are simply trying to justify their beliefs despite realizing on some level that they are wrong. This is not so. Most people holding a particular world view, be it science, religion, politics, economics, philosophy, or whatever, are just as sincere about their beliefs as you.

Most Baptists with any secondary education do realize that the Sabbath is a valid institution - for Jews.

No Christian follows Jesus' example in everything. Many do not fast, many are not circumcised, most do not celebrate Seders and other Jewish holy days, most people marry,the majority in all denominations take oaths, many divorce, and the way most Sabbath keepers spend Saturday is a mockery keeping that day holy, the majority worship God despite not being reconciled with their brother, physical adultery is rampant even amonst Adventists, all people practice an undercurrent of petty dishonesty, and the ones who back bite and gossip are the worst offenders in subjects of their gossip.

I do not judge people for such sham practices, that is God's place. Frankly, I know that God has a sense of humor, and He is quite amused about the way all of us practice our professed beliefs.

There are many reasons why a denomination would reject a different doctrine. One is that they can't be bothered. It is different than thier customs, than what they grew up with. It means that thier family was wrong, no matter what they believed or how strongly they believed it. They were WRONG!

Ham, this comes across as such a shallow judgment of the doctrines and beliefs of others. For your sake, I hope you do not openly display such an attitude, for you will not win many souls. If you think I am being offensive, then you best take stock of yourself and do some praying.

They then cant believe that they were wrong about this...It's just not possible that all that learning was wrong...So they attempt to justify thier reasoning...Well, Jesus was a jew. and all those jews keep the laws that God gave them as a way to work thier way to heaven. So, in keeping the Sabbath, they kept the law and they worked thier way into heaven...Thus, keeping the sabbath was just working your way into heaven. And baptist are of grace and not of works...So, Sabbath is of works...and the Jew's were wrong...

Since the Jews were wrong, thier religion is wrong. Since they are wrong, they killed the Christ. They are doubly wrong..And anything that smacks of working your way into heaven and jews is wrong...

I am sorry, but this is the true thinking of a baptist when it comes to thier religion and Jews....I won't say that it's wrong, but it does smacks of self justification in the worst way...

Obviously, you do not really "know" any Baptists. And do not apologize for your opinions if you honesty think you are right. It weakens your facade as well as your true position.

If you are justifying a wrong position, then you are working your way into heaven...no matter how much grace you claim...And even those who claim to know Christ are told that God never knew them when they did not follow His instructions...[see the parable of the 10 virgins in the NT]

It is like Cain, who brought before God, the work of his hands. I believe that he honestly was trying to do what was right in his eyes...He wanted to honor God. But God required a blood sacrifice...In rejecting the claims of Jesus' custom, you set yourself up to reject the blood sacrifice for the world...and limit it to just the Jews. ....

It still is runing away from God...

You are probably a nice, polite, lovable individual. But honestly, I have rarely seen such convoluted, circuitous, uninformed logic and positioning.

I shall pray for you and me. We both need it.

[BobRyan]

Notice that Andy Stanley makes the case that it is the Saved SAINTS that are called to keep the Sabbath Holy - not the lost sinner.

The lost sinner is called to accept Christ.

Oh how many have the view of the lost sinner perfectly in view - and how few have Andy's more advanced understanding of the view of the saved saint.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

So, based upon what I've said here, how can you determine if the Sabbath is kept by faith or by works...?

The Bible and The Holy Spirit tell me so. Paul being a Jewish Pharisee kept Jewish customs.

Agape and best regards,

I have a hard time believing that a man of your caliber would disregard the examples of Jesus and Paul, and subsequent theology just because you insist that anything of Jewish origin is wrong. It still smacks of racist policy.

Am I to believe that your insistance that Jews are outward people?

Paul had no such conciderations.

Roman 2-

28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

So, based upon this text alone, all gentile/Christians are Jews....Since Jesus and Paul are true Jews , all scripture that shows them as examples are for all true Jews/Christians...Therefore, the scriptures are valid for the gentiles chrisitans...

[JawgeFromJawja]

After vespers prayer and a good night’s sleep, I was moved with these thoughts. I deliberately posted this before reading any responses subsequent to my last scribbles.

Ham, with regard to my last post, I was blunt and less than subtle. If my posting offended you in any way, and if any of my posts have offended you in any way, I ask forgiveness.

I do not ask forgiveness for the post itself. God was working through me with a message for you and all Adventists. Your faith is commendable. While other Christians accept Sunday as the proper day to worship God, you accept Saturday, with all its inconveniences, difficulties. It takes great faith for you to accept the potential losses you face, economic losses and losses that come with strained personal relationships. It takes great faith for you to set aside that day, the seventh day, as your day of spiritual, mental, and even physical rest.

Even so, God fully accepts those who cannot in all sincerity accept the Sabbath as a required day of worship for all Christians.

Part of my message to you and all Christians is that when your faith is practiced in love, the real love Agape, and in good will, God accepts it all. There is good Scriptural basis for that, one of the passages being

Mar 9:38 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.

Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.

Mar 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.

Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

In speech,deed, and even thought, accept those of disparate beliefs as does God, for God certainly accepts them as fully as He accepts you. God works in, through and by those others and their faith. Do not offend those of disparate faith, because they, too, have strong reasons for their faith: they too have had prayers answered by God Himself. They, too have seen miracles, and they have seen the hand of God working in their lives. I know this without the least shadow of a doubt, because I have personally witnessed it in others’ lives, and in my own life, particularly my professional life.

For we of faith, one reason God fosters other faiths is to test and prove the strength and validity of our own. One of the reasons for my former atheistic stance was just that, a weak faith. I simply could no longer believe in a God Who “allowed” so many differing beliefs and doctrines that contradicted my own “true”, “perfect”, and “infallible” belief system. I simply could no longer believe in a God Who gave us Scripture with so many possible interpretations. What a nonsensical reason to lose one’s faith!

In many Biblical passages, God exhorts us to religious tolerance. This is one of those passages:

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

So, God Himself strengthens the faith of those with differing beliefs. Amazing, strange, paradoxical, marvelous. But that’s God!

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

Agape,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Ham, this response is being written after post #477926, my 9:05 AM post of today.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

The Bible and The Holy Spirit tell me so. Paul being a Jewish Pharisee kept Jewish customs.

Agape and best regards,

[/quote']

I have a hard time believing that a man of your caliber would disregard the examples of Jesus and Paul, and subsequent theology just because you insist that anything of Jewish origin is wrong. It still smacks of racist policy.

Ham, you have totally misread me. You just do not realize the extent of that misinterpretation.

How can I say this more plainly? I love Jewish people and all things Jewish. Nothing, NOTHING, concerning spiritual or Religious Judaism, is wrong. I know you will cringe about that statement, but it is my belief. Despite anything you say, the Jews, real ethnic and religious Jews, those who publicly profess the religion of Judaism, remain God's chosen people. Those who practice Judaism in good faith are saved, they are even now assured of God's protection and grace.

I said it before, and I say it again, I was strongly considering conversion to Judaism before reactivating my Church attendance. Of course, even my Jewish friends, true to standard Jewish practice, discouraged that.

Am I to believe that your insistance that Jews are outward

people?

Well, yes, those who are ethnic / religious Jews. You cannot get more "outward" than being circumcised. (For what it's worth, I am circumcised. Certainly it was not my choice to be so brutally and physically attacked only a day or so after birth without so much as a "by your leave".)Paul was using Jewishness as a type for integrity of faith - he was not saying that any and all Christians inherit the "Chosen People" status of Jews. Before you jump all over me for saying Christians are not God's chosen ones, I say again, the Jewishness Paul referred to was a type for religious integrity. Those who in faith accept Christianity do become adopted children of God.

Paul had no such conciderations.

I beg to differ. You are confusing Paul's illustration by type for the actual case.

Roman 2-

28 A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. 29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God.

So, based upon this text alone, all gentile/Christians are Jews....Since Jesus and Paul are true Jews , all scripture that shows them as examples are for all true Jews/Christians...Therefore, the scriptures are valid for the gentiles chrisitans...

Again, you are confusing Paul's illustration by type for what Paul was attempting to illustrate.

Whenever I make a statement about my spiritual convictions, it is the truth as I perceive it, on three levels:

1. I believe the statement, or,

2. "I do not know." (stated honestly as "I don't know",

but still the truth), or,

3. "None of your business!" (Bluntly stated, but still the

truth as I see it)

Dear Lord, why are Adventists so dense?

(If you take that preceding sentence as anything but levity, may God help us both.)

Agape (really! The best kind of Love.)

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Second Corinthians was less universally addressed than First Corinthians, but still widely directed.

If Paul's letters can be inclusive as to include "all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ...", then God's statement in ESV | &#8206;Is 56:6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant—" has to be viewed as just as inclusive. The "foreigners" clearly refers to Gentiles.

[color:#FF6600]Foremost, Paul was speaking from a "New Covenant" perspective. The commandments as given in Old Covenant Scripture were specifically addressed to Israel. You cannot show a passage that reveals God giving the Ten Commandments to any but the Children of Israel. Foreigners were invited to participate voluntarily. It is singularly indicative that Jewish scholars of the Old Covenant era recognized an abbreviated Law called "The Noachian Law". That code included the Law as delimited in the New Testament; neither that code nor New Testament code included keeping the Sabbath.

To argue a point from silence doesn't hold water because there is no direct instruction to Gentiles either that they can disregard one of the 10c. James says that if you break one of the 10c, you break them all, Jam 2:10. Jesus plainly said: ESV | &#8206;Mt 5:17-19 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill [GK plerosai - to make fullthem. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. &#8206;19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And yet, and yet, and yet, nowhere do you find Sabbath keeping mandated anywhere in the Old Testament or the New Testament. This is not arguing a point from silence, because this silence is deafening. In and of itself, by repeated non-occurrence in the Old or the New Testament, its silence screams to the ages that you are wrong.

Again: ESV | &#8206;Heb 4:9 So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, &#8206;10 for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his."

Heb 4:3

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Spoken to "The Hebrews", therefore with Jewish allusions. But there is no mandate here for universal Sabbath keeping. If you see such a mandate, either you are delusional or I am blind.

That this rest is not only spiritual (Heb 4:3) but also literal is seen in Heb 4:4, which points back to His rest in Gen 2:2. So the invitation to ALL is: ESV | &#8206;Heb 4:11 "Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience."

Nonsense. These verses show nothing of the sort. If you think so, please show this ole man your word by word reasoning.

God's blessings,

[BobRyan]

Part of my message to you and all Christians is that when your faith is practiced in love, the real love Agape, and in good will, God accepts it all.

My message to you and to all who choose to disregard the Word of God on the subject of the Law of God and the New Covenant (Where the Law of God is written on the heart) and who disregard Christ our Creator's Sabbath memorial of Creation as well as Christ's statement that He did not come to abolish His Law, as well as Paul's statement that as Christians our faith works to "Establish the Law of God" not "Abolish it"... (and who choose to disregard even their own pastors and teachers like Andy Stanley who stands up and teaches them that the Sabbath is still applicable to all mankind)...

"To the one that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4.

I am not here as "The Holy Spirit" - I choose to let HIM "Convict the World of sin and righteousness and judgment" as Christ said.

Those who choose sin over Christ - do so at their own risk according to John in 1John 2:4-8.

Those who claim to know Christ and yet willingly trample His own Law - His own Word underfoot - do so at their own risk.

I do not claim to judge them - only to tell them that they are choosing a very questionable, very risky path that has no Biblical defense.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Christ said that those who disregard even the least of God's commandments and so teach others - will be considered least by those in the kingdom of heaven.

Paul said "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:18

Do not offend those of disparate faith, because they, too, have strong reasons for their faith: they too have had prayers answered by God Himself. They, too have seen miracles, and they have seen the hand of God working in their lives. I know this without the least shadow of a doubt, because I have personally witnessed it in others’ lives, and in my own life, particularly my professional life.

Paul said that God has winked at the former times of ignorance but now calls all men everywhere to repent.

Those who suppose that they can be excused for turning a blind eye to the Word of God - have the lesson of Peter in Matt 16. Peter was affirmed when he expressed cutting edge leading faith in Christ as the Messiah the Son of God. But when Peter was introduced to the "next truth" the "next inconvenient truth" in Matt 16 he balked.

And then Christ turns to Peter and said "get thee behind me Satan".

Those who suppose themselves so secure that they can now turn against God's word - are not listening to Matt 18 or Matt 16 or Romans 11 very good at all.

God is not the God of confusion. Those who imagine that God is fostering confusion and rejection of His own Law - are listening to "another Christ" -- one whom "we have not preached" as Paul warns.

In Matt 7 Christ said "MANY" are on the wide road to destruction and the MANY will say in the last day "Lord Lord did we not attend church on Sunday and say all the right words in our songs?" - and Jesus will say to them "it is not those who SAY Lord lord that will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather it is he who DOES the will of My Father".

Matt 7.

Rebellion against the Word of God is not going to be nearly the blessed and holy thing that some people have imagined.

Let all be warned off of that ground - for there is no safety there -- there is only self-delusion as described in Matt 7. Thinking they are ok - when they are not.

Yet in all this - I would never claim that there are not Mormons, and JWs, and Catholics etc that are sincere and that are saved - none-the-less as it is true that God does wink to some extent when it comes to those not informed about the Word.

in Christ,

Bob

[Neil D]

After vespers prayer and a good night’s sleep, I was moved with these thoughts. I deliberately posted this before reading any responses subsequent to my last scribbles.

Ham, with regard to my last post, I was blunt and less than subtle. If my posting offended you in any way, and if any of my posts have offended you in any way, I ask forgiveness..

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

I have a hard time believing that a man of your caliber would disregard the examples of Jesus and Paul, and subsequent theology just because you insist that anything of Jewish origin is wrong. It still smacks of racist policy.

Ham, you have totally misread me. You just do not realize the extent of that misinterpretation.

How can I say this more plainly? I love Jewish people and all things Jewish. Nothing, NOTHING, concerning spiritual or Religious Judaism, is wrong. I know you will cringe about that statement, but it is my belief. Despite anything you say, the Jews, real ethnic and religious Jews, those who publicly profess the religion of Judaism, remain God's chosen people. Those who practice Judaism in good faith are saved, they are even now assured of God's protection and grace.

I said it before, and I say it again, I was strongly considering conversion to Judaism before reactivating my Church attendance. Of course, even my Jewish friends, true to standard Jewish practice, discouraged that.