SDA position on the Daily

[Lysimachus]

Ted,

If you ever have some time, I invite you to read my article on the 1260 year prophecy of Protestantism:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/60169741/Historicism-the-1260-Years-of-Protestantism

(I go by Marcos S.)

You're also welcome to read some of my other articles found here:

http://www.scribd.com/propheticlandmarks/documents

These are excerpts from my upcoming book, "Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic", or "Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation". (have not fully decided on a title yet).

[ClubV12]

Marcos, I think it's noteworthy that the 1335 year segment terminates in 1843 (NOT 1844). What was the blessing that awaited those who came to the conclusion of the 1335? They were supposed to be alive to see Jesus return! The 2,300 terminate in 1844. The difference of one year between these two time segments is one reason William Miller had trouble figuring out the end time dates (of course we know God held his Hand over the figures).

That was the original plan, that was the original blessing that awaited them. Ellen White spoke to a group at a conference in the 1850's and reported what the ANGEL had revealed to her. That some people, at that conference, would be food for worms (would die) and that some would live through the seven last plagues (would be alive to see Jesus return). Even as late as the 1870's our pioneers believed and preached that the Lord would return in their lifetime. That WAS the original, conditional plan. It was sometime in the 1880's when Ellen White first revealed that "we", as a Church, would have to remain here for many more years because of our unbelief. That "we", as a people, had made choices that made it impossible for God to carry out His original intended plan. We are now on plan B, or perhaps X, Y or Z, certainly not A.

[hch]

Those who believe the 1260, 1290 and 1335 year segments of the 2,300 year prophecy are both literal days and are applied in the future are typically not members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Though they often allude to, suggest or imply they are. ...

Since Ellen White taught both positions that the 1260, 1290, and 1335 were years fulfilled in the past and are to be repeated as literal days in their final fulfillment, and she claimed to be an Adventist; there must be something wrong with the assumed conclusion proffered above.

Truth does not contradict truth

[ClubV12]

HCH, I'm surprised you would repeat the rumor and gossip that Ellen White taught the 1335 were yet future! I am continually amazed at the things I see on this forum stated as "fact" and "truth" that are mere speculation, rumor and gossip!

Simply amazing!! As if lies, repeated often enough, can somehow become truth.

[hch]

"Futurists" exposed...

Point of clairification on folks who believe the 1260, 1290 and 1335 year segments of the 2,300 year prophecy are literal days. The official Seventh-day Adventist Church position is that these time segments are years (using the day for a year principle) and that these time segments are in the past, the last of which terminated in 1844. They are not "future", they are not literal days, there is no dual fulfillment of these time frames.

Those who believe the 1260, 1290 and 1335 year segments of the 2,300 year prophecy are both literal days and are applied in the future are typically not members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Though they often allude to, suggest or imply they are. This is not to imply such believers are insincere, indeed, even fanatics and extremists can be deeply sincere. Even to the point of delivering themselves to be burned or martyred for Christ. But there is no reward for the sin of presumption and sincerity should not be mistaken for truth. Sadly, many sincere folks are sincerely mistaken.

Gibs ask's,

"Just tell me when the deadly wound is healed of Rev 13:3 that's all I need to know." Simple enough. The deadly wound is healed when the combination of civil and religious power is such that men can be compelled by law of the land to acknowledge Sunday as a legal and religious day of worship. Until that happens, the wound is not healed.

That is interesting since EGW placed them in the past and in the future and they have located in recent events.

Is this a matter of infallibility?

[hch]

HCH, I'm surprised you would repeat the rumor and gossip that Ellen White taught the 1335 were yet future! I am continually amazed at the things I see on this forum stated as "fact" and "truth" that are mere speculation, rumor and gossip!

Simply amazing!! As if lies, repeated often enough, can somehow become truth.

[Gordon1]

"Let us read and study the 12th chapter of Daniel.

It is a warning we shall all need to understand before the time of the end."

EGW - Letter 161 July 30, 1903

[ClubV12]

HCH, "end of days", "time of the end". 1798, some say 1844, I'm OK with either but prefer 1798 myself.

I have given a lot of thought to the potential of a REPEAT of the 1335 in the future, as some sincere and deep bible students wonder about. It is settled for me, won't happen. Save your time, quit chasing rainbows.

As for those who think the 1335 HASN'T even happened yet, nothing to see here folks, move along.

Solid quote Gordon1.

[hch]

"Let us read and study the 12th chapter of Daniel.

It is a warning we shall all need to understand before the time of the end."

EGW - Letter 161 July 30, 1903

[hch]

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

"Let us read and study the 12th chapter of Daniel.

It is a warning we shall all need to understand before the time of the end."

EGW - Letter 161 July 30, 1903

You know chapter 7 leads up to the daily issue.

To start here, Daniel 7:17. The angel says 'these four beasts are kingdoms that will arise from the EARTH.'

Our understanding of the earth has been generally America (sparsely populated). Ok?

The question then is what is the angel saying in Daniel 7:17?? is the angel talking about kingdoms or kings arising from the earth? If it is kingdoms arising from the earth, which are they? If it is kings arising from the EARTH, who are they and in which kingdom?

If someone can clearly show that this verse has nothing to do with earth, but the sea as in Verse 2 and nothing to do with 4 kings but 4 kingdoms, we will have started well.

Our traditional understanding is that these are 4 kingdoms arising out of the sea, (according to verse 2) but the angel said these are kingdoms arising from the earth? (according to verse 17)

"O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased" (12:4).

"Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end" (12:9).

The BOOK of Daniel was sealed until the time of the end.

When is the time when the book of Daniel was opened?

"But since 1798 the book of Daniel has been unsealed, knowledge of the prophecies has increased, and many have proclaimed the solemn message of the Judgment near." {GC88 356.2}

But the preaching of the 4-kingdoms from Babylon to Rome dates back to HIPPOLYTUS OF ROME (4th century AD), Martin Luther (1500's), & Sir Isaac Newton (1600's). Can these men that lived before the book of Daniel was unsealed in the time of the end teach the meaning that was not unsealed and opened until 1798 and beyond when knowledge was to be increased?

No. They can teach that the 4-kingdoms are God's seal of authority on Daniel's prophecy. The kingdoms confirmed that Daniel was inspired of God, but these kingdoms that seal the truthfulness of Daniel's prophecy cannot be the meaning of the prophecy that is to be understood in the time of the end.

"The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood; they interpret each other. They give to the world truths which everyone should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days, they will explain themselves. " {PH139 11.1}

It is by the fulfillment of Daniel and Revelation in these last days that they will explain themselves not by their fulfillment in the past that they are to explain themselves.

When it was understood in the past that the 4 beasts were 4 kingdoms (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome) that was the correct interpretation at that time based on all of the data that the Lord had been pleased to reveal up to that time. It was Present Truth.

"The great kingdoms that have ruled the world were presented to the prophet Daniel as beasts of prey, rising when the "four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea." [Daniel 7:2.] In Revelation 17, an angel explained that waters represent "peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues." [Revelation 17:15.] Winds are a symbol of strife. The four winds of heaven striving upon the great sea, represent the terrible scenes of conquest and revolution by which kingdoms have attained to power." {GC88 439.3}

"Even the prophets did not fully comprehend the import of the revelations committed to them. The meaning was to be unfolded, from age to age, as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained." GC88 344.1

As this was true of the Bible prophets, it was true of Mrs White. The meaning was to be unfolded, from age to age, as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained. She wrote:

"To Daniel was given a vision of fierce beasts, representing the powers of the earth." (Letter 32, 1899). {4BC 1171.5}

But she never explained in so many words that the fierce beasts, representing the powers of the earth that Daniel saw were from America. But she knew of America's place as the (beast) power from the earth.

"Through paganism, and then through the Papacy, Satan exerted his power for many centuries in an effort to blot from the earth God's faithful witnesses. Pagans and papists were actuated by the same dragon spirit. They differed only in that the Papacy, making a pretense of serving God, was the more dangerous and cruel foe. Through the agency of Romanism, Satan took the world captive. The professed church of God was swept into the ranks of this delusion, and for more than a thousand years the people of God suffered under the dragon's ire. And when the Papacy, robbed of its strength, was forced to desist from persecution, John beheld a new power coming up to echo the dragon's voice, and carry forward the same cruel and blasphemous work. This power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized by a beast with lamblike horns. The beasts preceding it had risen from the sea, but this came up out of the earth, representing the peaceful rise of the nation which is symbolized. The "two horns like a lamb" well represent the character of the United States Government... {ST, November 1, 1899 par. 4}.

Thus there are two interpretations of Daniel. The first is the 4 kingdoms that explain the sealing of the book. They are the kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome (pagan & papal). Then when papal Rome was forced to desist from persecution, the power, the last that is to wage war against the church and the law of God, was symbolized as the power to arise up out of the earth. It represented the nation which is symbolized by the "two horns like a lamb" the United States Government.

Thus in the endtime when The meaning was to be unfolded as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained the prophecies of Daniel and of John by their fulfillment in these last days, they will explain themselves.

Now what Daniel saw in the vision (7:2-3) beasts from the (sea) appear to contradict what Heaven is explaining: beasts from the earth (7:17). This appears to be a contradiction because the sea and earth are different. If the sea and earth are the same, then the prophetic understanding of Revelation 13 cannot be correct because it is based on understanding that the symbolic sea and earth are different.

But the SDA teaching of the symbolic earth and sea in Revelation 13 is correct. So some SDA's teach that the sea in Daniel is symbolic but the earth is literal. That is confusion.

Daniel has sea, lion, bear, leopard, beast with no description (except its horns), and earth. Revelation 13 has sea, leopard, bear, beast with no description (except its horns), and earth.

To have the same symbols in both prophecies (sea, lion, bear, leopard, beast with no description [except its horns], and earth), but to declare that in one prophecy the earth is a symbol and that in the other prophecy the earth is literal is confusion. The difference in the horns 10 in Daniel and 2 in Revelation show this beast in different stages but it remains a beast with no description in both prophecies.

The historical view of Daniel 7 was not confusion before knowledge was increased. But when more light came and questions arose, what had been clear in the past needed to be clarified as knowledge was increased.

The angel is giving to Daniel the meaning of the 4 beasts in the endtime when the book of Daniel is opened (cf. 12:4 & 9). The angel is saying, these are 4 kings arising from the earth. To understand what the angel is saying, can the vision say the beasts came from the sea and the interpretation say that they are from the earth? That would be a contradiction.

The Bible does not contradict itself. So if there appears to be a contradiction, it has to be man's understanding that is at fault. If Daniel's words were correctly translated for the Present Truth of the past, is the translation that was correct then still the meaning that is correct for the time of the end when knowledge is to be increased? In the endtime when the meaning is to be unfolded as the people of God should need the instruction therein contained when the prophecies of Daniel and of John by their fulfillment in these last days explain themselves will the word of God contradict it self by calling sea earth? NO!

Therefore the meaning of the word sea must be considered. It also means west. In the endtime, WEST agrees with the prophetic earth as being the place from which America arises.

And the word translated kingdom (7:23) after Heaven's interpretation is given (7:17) as 4-kings is not in agreement with what Heaven just stated. But the word translated as kingdom is not translated as kingdom in any other book of the Bible. When it occurs in Ezra, it is realm or reign as in the reign king Darius.

The translators used history to help them understand what Daniel was writing. Kingdoms could have been rendered 'reigns' as well as 'kingdoms' coming out of the earth. It is the king that reigns over his kingdom.

A Brother asked, "My personal question would be, Daniel saw them (beasts) coming out of the sea, in verse 2, why is the angel bringing in the earth at interpretation in verse 17?"

The angel is giving the interpretation that is specifically for the endtime when the book of Daniel is unsealed when the meaning is to be unfolded as the people of God should need the instruction therein. These kings (Presidents) have arisen and Daniel and John by their fulfillment in these last days explain themselves.

[ClubV12]

HCH says,

"Our understanding of the earth has been generally America (sparsely populated). Ok?"

Your position collapses on this point. The various Kingdoms have risen and fallen throughout history were "way marks" and confirmation of the accuracy of the prophecy. Since 1798 we look back on these "kingdoms" and see how the prophecy has unfolded in exacting order. We see the "way marks" of which the kingdoms themselves were not aware, nor did they care. To them, it was just another day in history. A day like any other, to conquer and plant, a life to live.

William Miller and many other biblical scholars of his time understood this well. We are now standing on the threshold of Daniel 11 verse 45. All the other verses in Daniel 11 have met their fulfillment. While they are difference of opinion as to the specifics of the fulfillment, there is no disagreement they HAVE been fulfilled.

This is why Ellen White said the "daily" was of minor importance. Because it applies to something that has already transpired, it's literally "history". She was much more interested in the "eastern question", which was relevant in her time and remains relevant in ours. That is: Verse 45.

[Ted Oplinger]

Henry,

We are not at liberty to redefine what "last days" means in the Bible. If we try, we shall surely go astray.

Christ and the apostles both declared that the "Last Days" began after He ascended. In Matthew 24:15-20 (and its parallel passages in Mark 13:14-18 and Luke 21:20-24), Christ made a specific application of Daniel's prophecy of the Abomination that makes Desolate (Daniel 9:27) to the coming sack of Jerusalem - indicating Daniel was even then an unsealed book. Believers then were to read AND understand Christ's reference.

Paul references the term "last days" frequently in his letters, as he and the rest of the early church were expectant of the returning Messiah

Hippolytus of Rome, 300 years after Paul, is entirely within the scope of "last days", as is Martin Luther and the rest of the Reformers.

To say that all of these weren't "included" in the last days is not a Biblically correct statement, Henry. Christians heeded Christ, paid attention to Daniel, and not one perished in the sack of Jerusalem in AD 70 - because Daniel was unsealed.

The 4th beast - under whom Christ was crucified - continues to the end of time, when Christ's return in glory shatters its power forever.

The Land Beast of Revelation 13 does not supersede the Little Horn - its function is to direct the world's attention TO the Little Horn. The last days did not start in 1798 with the arising of the land Beast - people were looking expectantly for its arrival decades before 1798 (an activity in and of itself a last days function).

Trying to define the meaning of "last days" to mean only when a couple of chapters of Daniel would understandable, causes your argument to flounder on two points.

Blessing,

[hch]

HCH says,

"Our understanding of the earth has been generally America (sparsely populated). Ok?"

Your position collapses on this point. The various Kingdoms have risen and fallen throughout history were "way marks" and confirmation of the accuracy of the prophecy. Since 1798 we look back on these "kingdoms" and see how the prophecy has unfolded in exacting order. We see the "way marks" of which the kingdoms themselves were not aware, nor did they care. To them, it was just another day in history. A day like any other, to conquer and plant, a life to live.

William Miller and many other biblical scholars of his time understood this well. We are now standing on the threshold of Daniel 11 verse 45. All the other verses in Daniel 11 have met their fulfillment. While they are difference of opinion as to the specifics of the fulfillment, there is no disagreement they HAVE been fulfilled.

This is why Ellen White said the "daily" was of minor importance. Because it applies to something that has already transpired, it's literally "history". She was much more interested in the "eastern question", which was relevant in her time and remains relevant in ours. That is: Verse 45.

Club 12,

Brother you confuse the kingdoms that sealed the authenticity of the prophecy prior to 1798 with the endtime meaning that was unsealed after 1844 when knowledge was to be increased.

And since you are under the delusion that all prophetic time stopped in 1844, you cannot follow the prophetic time that interposes from 1844 until Christ's Advent.

You cannot follow the 2300-years as they are explained in Daniel 11 to 12:1 when Christ stood for His people in 1844. Or the repeating of the prophecy from 11:6-43 with a final fulfillment of 11:30-36 in our very near future. And then Christ will stand and say it is done.

And since you cannot follow Daniel's prophecy when it repeats, you are incapable of seeing the first and the final fulfillments of Daniel 2 and 7. They begin with the 4 kings of Babylon in its local application. They include the great kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and pagan and papal Rome to take us to the time of the end. And in the time of the end when Daniel is standing in his lot the 4 kings from the earth are the American Presidents:Reagan, Bush I, Clinton, and Bush II & Obama as though the last 2 are one like pagan and papal Rome.

But since you see only the basics that are established in ancient history (the things that have been) and nothing of what is or of what is to be, you can't possible have a clue about how the daily was fulfilled in 2001 and the particulars that have such an impact on us today are unknown to you. You did not receive the promised blessing on May 17, 2005.

So when Daniel 11:45 is fulfilled, it will most likely be a total surprise to you as well.

[BobRyan]

Both views of the "Daily" in Dan 8 have the same start point for the 2300 days of Daniel 8 and they have the same day for year historicist model - which means both views have the same set and sequence of events taking place in the 2300 years and the same end point for the 2300 years.

So then what difference does the entire discussion make?

in Christ,

Bob

[hch]

Both views of the "Daily" in Dan 8 have the same start point for the 2300 days of Daniel 8 and they have the same day for year historicist model - which means both views have the same set and sequence of events taking place in the 2300 years and the same end point for the 2300 years.

So then what difference does the entire discussion make?

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

Have you not considered the statement in the Spirit of prophecy?

"The light that Daniel received direct from God was given especially for these last days. The visions he saw by the banks of the Ulai and the Hiddekel, the great rivers of Shinar, are now in process of fulfillment, and all the events foretold will soon have come to pass" (Letter 57, 1896).

52 years after 1844 when the 2300-years were ended Ellen White said "all the events foretold will soon have come to pass."

That is not to say that some of the events foretold will soon come to pass, but ALL of them. Thus what you would put in the past Ellen White places its final fulfillment in the future.

Thus rather than to seek light at the appointed time, your comment casts a shadow over it.

[Gibs]

Jesus Christ is at present ministering "the Daily" in our behalf. It will be the ultimate transgression that will take it away,

Da 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. ( The Holy Sabbath Day will be cast down, the place in time He comes to tabernacle with us )

Da 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Now with just a little reason on our part what do you suppose will be that great transgression that takes away Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly!

How about an imposter standing up here on earth saying, "I am Christ your King and most of the world will receive him as such.

Then it seems Christ will soon stand up, read,

Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[hch]

Jesus Christ is at present ministering "the Daily" in our behalf. It will be the ultimate transgression that will take it away,

Da 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down. ( The Holy Sabbath Day will be cast down, the place in time He comes to tabernacle with us )

Da 8:12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Now with just a little reason on our part what do you suppose will be that great transgression that takes away Christ's Ministry in the Heavenly!

How about an imposter standing up here on earth saying, "I am Christ your King and most of the world will receive him as such.

Then it seems Christ will soon stand up, read,

Da 12:1 ¶ And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I agree with what you write as far as it goes. But it is terribly out of date. There is Present Truth that is sorely needed now that you have not here even scratched the surface.