Moderators John317 Posted September 5, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted September 5, 2011 Great point. It would surely contradict the other point, you're right. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 5, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted September 5, 2011 Yes, I only use Ellen White with people who know about her or have mentioned her or who accept her prophetic ministry as being from God. For people who know nothing of her, I might quote her as a writer of good books, but not as a prophet of God or as an authority. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 5) If Adam had remained true to God, the Lord would have made him another companion to take the place of Eve. The Scripture is not explicit on this point either, but if God's ways are consistent, it would seem a reasonable and probable solution to the treasonous flight to the dark side of half of the human team. Since one of the main purposes of marriage was to reproduce a "godly offspring"(Mal.2:15)Eve's defection had rendered that original design moot. God, as God, may not have been relegated to only this one option but it certainly was a viable one. If the question would be worded "could have" rather than "would have" (btw EGW uses the word could in PP)I would Biblically answer with a resounding YES.If the word remains would (indicating absolute certainty)I would have to answer Biblically with a maybe/probably to #5. Does that count? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I submit an anchor point: There is much within the bible and the spirit of prophecy that seems to contradict another prophet. James and his emphasis on works could be seen to contradict Paul on his message of faith! We often see apparent contradictions in Sister Whites writing. Here is the anchor: It is impossible for one prophet to contradict another, IMPOSSIBLE. James is in perfect harmony with Paul as they both are with Sister White. If we think not, it's because we don't yet grasp the message, the anchor remains true regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 5, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted September 5, 2011 Yes, I think that's very fair. By the way I agree with your reasoning here. I will go back and change that particular wording in the question. The reason I said "would" is that I believe this is what would have happened if Eve alone had sinned and Adam had remained loyal to God. I think logic leads to that conclusion because otherwise it would mean that if Adam had refused to eat the fruit, it would be the end of the human race, since Eve alone would have been banished from the Garden. Can we believe God would made Adam stay in the Garden all alone if Eve had sinned but Adam had remained loyal? Therefore, if God intended the human race to reproduce, Eve's Fall would have necessitated God's giving a female companion to Adam in place of Eve. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 5, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted September 5, 2011 I agree with you, Club. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 #3 is another example of misreading Scripture, based on tradition. We have been taught by EGW and others that Eve was alone when she was tempted at the Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good an Evil. Thank you for pointing out that in order to believe that Adam and Eve were together at the tree of knowledge, one would first need to reject Ellen White's plain statement. Quote: Here is the proof text: So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Gen. 3:6. That text doesn't prove that Adam and Eve were together at the tree. All that text says is that she gave some of the fruit to the companion that God gave to Eve to be with her in the Garden. It's foolishness to think it is telling us Adam was with her at the time she gave him the fruit. Where else is Adam going to be when she gave him the fruit? She couldn't very well give him the fruit when he wasn't with her, could she? That proves it is not saying she was with him when she gave him the fruit. "With her" has reference to the fact that he was her companion in the Garden-- the one whom God gave her to protect her. Adam should have protected her from Satan's temptations, but he didn't. Instead, she took of the fruit and then tempted him with it, and he took of it and ate it just like she had. Many Christians and Jews have believed on the basis of the Bible narrative that Eve was alone at the tree. So it has nothing to do with Ellen White. The great poet, John Milton, never heard of Ellen White, yet he wrote that Eve was alone at the tree. Many great Bible commentators have made the same conclusion. There are many Bible reasons to believe that Eve was alone and not with Adam when she ate of the forbidden fruit. We can go over some of those reasons in detail if you like. You are clearly making your choice as to whom you will serve, and that is EGW and the SDA church over the actual words of God. You obfuscate the meaning of Gen. 3:6 because if you accept it as it reads then you have a problem with EGW and traditional Christian beliefs. I don't care a wit what EGW and a 'great many Bible commentators' have concluded; all I care about is what that particular Scripture literally says. This will always be a difficulty between us unless and until you decide that what God said under any and all conditions is what He meant, and you no longer try to make it say something else. This is immutable with me, so I cannot change even if I wanted to. Therefore, according to Scripture Eve was NOT ALONE with Satan in front of the Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; she had her husband with her, who did not step in and stop the progress toward disobedience. This is why it was Adam's sin and not Eve's that caused the Kingdom of Heaven to come under the rulership of Satan (the world having already given themselves in becoming his kingdom of darkness). It is the obedience of the Kingdom of the Heavens that God must have in order for the event of Rev. 11:15 to take place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Those who have rejected Ellen White have no chance of correctly interpreting scripture, MM. About as much chance as any of the 1,000's of other christian churches out there. Struggling with their individual idea of what scripture means. The choice is clear, to serve God means to listen and obey His prophets, who include Ellen White. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 5, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted September 5, 2011 MM, what was Adam thinking all the time he was supposedly watching and listening as the snake talked to Eve and tempted her and then as she ate of the fruit? I've shown evidence below that Gen 3: 6 can reasonably be understood in different ways, and that it is not saying Adam was with Eve at the time she was tempted. I would be really interested to see your response to what I've said. I mean I would like to see you give more than a general statement and conclusion. I want to see your reasoning. That means responding to the argument I've presented below. Quote: Let's suppose for sake of argument that Adam is standing there and hearing the conversation between Satan and Eve. First of all, Adam loves Eve, does he not? Does Adam say a word? No. He stands like a dumb dog that doesn't bark. Does Adam believe in talking snakes? No. Why not? Because Adam knows the animals and knows snakes don't talk. Does Eve believe snakes can talk? Evidently. Does Satan say anything to Adam? No, not a single word. Does Adam later blame Satan? No. Evidently he wasn't tempted by Satan. Does Eve blame Adam? No, not a bit. But shouldn't she have blamed Adam a little bit if he stood by and said nothing while she ate of the fruit? Why didn't Adam warn her? The sensible answer is that Adam wasn't there at the time Eve was tempted and ate of the fruit. Who does Adam blame? Eve. Evidently Eve is the one who tempted Adam. That is what all the evidence supports. No wonder so many Christians have believed Eve was alone when she was tempted. Just like Ellen White wrote. And just like great thinkers and writers like John Milton believed. So then, MM, what do you believe Adam was thinking at the tree of knowledge? What does the evidence show? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 I agree with you, Club. I shall second the motion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 Therefore, according to Scripture Eve was NOT ALONE with Satan in front of the Tree of the Learning of the Knowledge of Good and Evil; she had her husband with her, who did not step in and stop the progress toward disobedience. This is why it was Adam's sin and not Eve's that caused the Kingdom of Heaven to come under the rulership of Satan According to what the Bible says, your result of Adam's sin is correct, your reason for that result is not.God unobfuscatingly tells Adam (and the rest of humanity) that the reason he (and the rest of humanity)is being punished/cursed is because "you have heeded the voice of your wife, and (you)have eaten from the tree..." not "because you allowed your wife to heed the voice of the serpent and eat of the tree". Are you willing to accept the Scripture as it reads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 Are the following true statements or false? Feel free to answer them any way you believe. 1) God made Adam first and gave only him the responsibility of naming the animals. This is a true statement. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted September 5, 2011 Members Share Posted September 5, 2011 Are the following true statements or false? Feel free to answer them any way you believe. 2)Before Eve was created, God gave Adam the commandment not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. This is also a true statement. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted September 5, 2011 Share Posted September 5, 2011 OK, John317 I will dive into this. Here are my answers to all twelve. QUIZ ON ADAM AND EVE Quote: Are the following true statements or false? Feel free to answer them any way you believe. 1) God made Adam first and gave only him the responsibility of walking all over the Garden for the purpose of naming the animals. True. Genesis 2:19-20. 2) Before Eve was created, God gave Adam the commandment not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. True. Genesis 2:16-17. 3) Eve was alone at the tree at the time she was tempted and ate of the forbidden fruit. Genesis 3:6 is not clear about this. It says Eve liked the fruit and took some and ate it. That ends the first sentence of verse six. The second sentence says that she gave some to her husband "who was with her". It depends on how we read the phrase "who was with her". Was Adam "with her" at the tree of temptation or was Adam "with her" somewhere else when she gave him the fruit. John317 your argument about Adam being "a dumb dog" in my view does not hold water. Either way you look at it "Adam was a 'dumb dog'" to the max. He was dumb to take the fruit no matter where he was. Thus, you not argue that Adam could not sit there silently watching the whole thing because it was "dumb". Adam was "dumb" whether or not he was there the whole time or not. Adam did not act in a logical way in any case. Thus, we can not use "logic" as an argument to support our view of what Adam did. The Bible is not clear. However, whether Eve was alone or whether Adam was there is NOT CRUCIAL TO THE SITUATION! I have always personally tended to "believe" that Eve was alone, but is just my opinion and others can have the opposite view and it changes nothing in the outcome. SoP has its view and those that believe that view are just fine because either way we go the Bible's fuzziness is not crucial. TRUE. Based on my opinion of the situation. 4) Immediately after Eve ate of the forbidden tree, and before Adam chose to eat of it, all humanity was condemned. False. Romans chapter five. 5) If Adam had remained true to God, the Lord would have made him another companion to take the place of Eve. The Bible does not say. SoP says yes making the statement True. If we take only the Bible it is unknown! My personal opinion is that God would have destroyed Eve and given Adam another spouse. Since this is not what happened all is pure conjecture and basically meaningless. TRUE. Based on my opinion. 6) Sin came upon all mankind through the sin of one man. True. Romans chapter five. 7) After sin, God made woman the head of the man. False. Genesis 3:16. 8) In the Garden the woman was to protect the man. False. The Bible says nothing about "protection". Eve’s purpose was to help Adam “RULE” the creation. Genesis 1:28, Genesis 2:18, 22-23. SoP may say TRUE. I think the question again is irrelevant. Adam should have been able to stand for God regardless of whether Eve was there or not. This implies some weakness in Adam and casts Adam as not actually being fit to RULE as God commanded Adam to do. It also implies that God did not make Adam perfect as the Scripture asserts Adam was. As the story turns out it was Eve who needed the protection. Either Adam fell down on his duty to protect his wife or she indeed on her own proved too weak. Given her weakness how then could she logically protect Adam. 9) When God first created Eve, she was taller than the man. False. The Bible says nothing about this. SoP says Adam was taller. 10) We have reason to believe that if Adam had been the first to eat of the forbidden fruit, God would have made Eve another companion to take Adam's place. False. The Bible says nothing about this directly. In addition this does not fit the views given by Paul in Romans chapter five. We would be inconsistent if we made this to be true. 11) Adam was given specific instruction not to leave Eve's side. False. The Bible says nothing about this. However, question number three says Adam was there when Eve ate the fruit. Genesis 3:6 (See discussion of question three). SoP may give us a different view making the answer TRUE. 12) Eve was given specific instructions not to leave Adam's side because it would be easier for her to Fall for Satan's temptations if she were alone. False. See question three and question eleven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted September 6, 2011 Members Share Posted September 6, 2011 Are the following true statements or false? Feel free to answer them any way you believe. 3) Eve was alone at the tree at the time she was tempted and ate of the forbidden fruit. From my reading of this passage, and using common sense, I also agree that this is a true statement. Because if Adam had of been with Eve wouldn't you think he would've gotten Eve and himself away from there? I think this is a passage in scripture that EGW fills in for us. Because many have a problem with this, yes it definitely seems, reading for the first time, and you don't have a good understanding, that after she eats the fruit she hands it right over to Adam and says "Man is this good have a bite." Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted September 6, 2011 Members Share Posted September 6, 2011 Are the following true statements or false? Feel free to answer them any way you believe. 4) Immediately after Eve ate of the forbidden tree, and before Adam chose to eat of it, all humanity was condemned. I'd say this statement is false. I believe if I'm not mistaken that EGW mentions that had Adam not eaten of this that God would've created another Woman (Eve?) for him. This is another passage that if we have a problem, EGW answers for us, and gives us some very good insights for. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted September 6, 2011 Members Share Posted September 6, 2011 Are the following true statements or false? Feel free to answer them any way you believe. 5) If Adam had remained true to God, the Lord could have made him another companion to take the place of Eve. True, see my answer for #4 Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted September 6, 2011 Members Share Posted September 6, 2011 Are the following true statements or false? Feel free to answer them any way you believe. 6) Sin came upon all mankind through the sin of one man. True, because of Adam eating the fruit and not Eve, even though sin had already enter the universe because of Satan. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted September 6, 2011 Members Share Posted September 6, 2011 Are the following true statements or false? Feel free to answer them any way you believe. 7) After sin, God made woman the head of the man. 8) In the Garden the woman was to protect the man. 9) When God first created Eve, she was taller than the man. 10) We have reason to believe that if Adam had been the first to eat of the forbidden fruit, God would have made Eve another companion to take Adam's place. 11) Adam was given specific instruction not to leave Eve's side. These are all false. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted September 6, 2011 Members Share Posted September 6, 2011 Are the following true statements or false? Feel free to answer them any way you believe. 12) Eve was given specific instructions not to leave Adam's side because it would be easier for her to Fall for Satan's temptations if she were alone. This is true. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windsor Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Are the following true statements or false? Feel free to answer them any way you believe. 4) Immediately after Eve ate of the forbidden tree, and before Adam chose to eat of it, all humanity was condemned. I'd say this statement is false. I believe if I'm not mistaken that EGW mentions that had Adam not eaten of this that God would've created another Woman (Eve?) for him. This is another passage that if we have a problem, EGW answers for us, and gives us some very good insights for. Also, if Eve or Adam had received another companion if one or the other fell, or if neither of them had fallen, not a single one of us here on this forum would exist today. Other humans for sure, but not the mix of DNA that eventually led to us. Quote Remember Adventists Online? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Windsor, I'm OK with that. Someone mentioned to me the other day it was a "good thing" the Lord hadn't come yet or we wouldn't be here. I reject that concept. If it would vindicate God's character, if it would put an end to sin, if it would bring eternal happiness sooner, I would that I had never existed. It is not eternal life that we should seek, but the vindication of Gods love and character, no matter what the personal cost to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Also, if Eve or Adam had received another companion if one or the other fell, or if neither of them had fallen, not a single one of us here on this forum would exist today. Other humans for sure, but not the mix of DNA that eventually led to us. Not true. God controls the DNA and He controls the mix of DNA. What a marvelous thought to know that God actually intended you and I to actually exist. Out of all the possible possibilities God knows and makes the exact humans He wants. We humans do not exist by "chance".(If you believe that it happens by chance then you are no better than the evolutionist and their theories of "chance"). We exist by the thought and intention of the Almighty God. I am honored by God's choice and so should everyone who receives life beginning at conception no matter how long that life may exist. This is why "abortion" is not just an issue. It is a moral imperative! No woman has the "right to choose". Life is God's right to choose only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Also, if Eve or Adam had received another companion if one or the other fell, or if neither of them had fallen, not a single one of us here on this forum would exist today. Other humans for sure, but not the mix of DNA that eventually led to us.Don't think I can fully agree with that,W. Sin did not change the way in which humans reproduce humans. We might all still be here but just not on this forum trying to understand God's design for men and women.What sin affected most openly was the kind of humans that their now sin infected DNA produced.But your post made me think of one of the reasons why the introduction of sin made it impossible for Plan A to be carried out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: Windsor Also, if Eve or Adam had received another companion if one or the other fell, or if neither of them had fallen, not a single one of us here on this forum would exist today. Other humans for sure, but not the mix of DNA that eventually led to us. Not true. God controls the DNA and He controls the mix of DNA. What a marvelous thought to know that God actually intended you and I to actually exist. Out of all the possible possibilities God knows and makes the exact humans He wants. We humans do not exist by "chance".(If you believe that it happens by chance then you are no better than the evolutionist and their theories of "chance"). We exist by the thought and intention of the Almighty God. I am honored by God's choice and so should everyone who receives life beginning at conception no matter how long that life may exist. This is why "abortion" is not just an issue. It is a moral imperative! No woman has the "right to choose". Life is God's right to choose only. That's a very succinct and important point, though often misunderstood by both advocate and opponent. It's ungirding principle is directly related to the theme of this thread.God does not simply transfer ownership of all human design to us just because we sinners broke the original blueprint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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