Lay Sister White to one Side

[CoAspen]

Club v12, BTW the quote was not provided to say that we stop quoting Sis White. That would be making a superficial judgement about my motivations.

So now you have kindly provided the context what are the principles what we can draw from the quote?

Hmmm....Houston, we are still having a problem!

[epaminondas]

This much is true: Ellen White did say the eating of pork is in some way related to leprosy. It is not. I challenge even the Loma Linda Medical School to say it is. It is taught in no bona fide medical school. There is no context to this.

Ellen White also said the reading of novels send people to mental asylums. This was even published in a Record of not too long ago. Again, do they teach this at Loma Linda? This is so absurd it needs no further comment.

Whenever Ellen White mentioned cream, she always advocated taking it and not avoiding it. Cream is extremely high in saturated fats and cholesterol. It does contain a bit of vitamin A (a fat soluble vitamin) and is low in sodium. Cream is as bad as the worst cheese and worse than many. Was God behind this?

Ellen White, in a vision, mentioned planets with so many moons. Captain Bates, an amateur astronomer identified the planets with Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus. Later, in 1847, in A Word to the Little Flock, James White specifically mentioned Jupiter and Saturn. Despite having decades to do so, she never corrected either of them. We now know the count of the moons was wrong and in keeping what was known at the time of the vision about the planets concerned. This is important, she got the moons right for the planets concerned according to the knowledge at the time. Now do a bit of math and work out the probability of that happening for several planets.

We know about the food for worms prophesy. The unspoken condition scenario can be invoked by any unfulfilled prophesy, so it doesn't wash. In Jonah's case the prophesy was reversed before it was due to happen, so it's not comparable. This is just a plain, unfulfilled prophesy.

Ellen White had much to say of the benefits of exposure to sunlight. Yes, it kills some micro organisms by disrupting the genetic code in their nuclei, same as it does for the cells in your skin. I have personally surgically removed many sun induced malignancies that were too big for the dermatologist to remove. The women of Bergen, Norway, are said to have the nicest skins in the world due to the low exposure to sunlight they have. I know of no cases of sun deficiency disease. I practiced surgery, so they may not have come my way, but if their are any they are greatly outnumbered by the harm that sun exposure does. Surely God knew that. Why didn't He reveal it to Ellen White and she to us?

Most of you know all these things. How can you ignore it? Is it a case of I will believe, despite the facts? I don't understand. The image of an ostrich with its head in the sand (an urban myth) fills my head.

[John317]

So now you have kindly provided the context what are the principles what we can draw from the quote?

Originally Posted By: CoAspen

Hmmm....Houston, we are still having a problem!

See post#474635 where some of the principles are touched upon.

What do you believe the principles are that we can draw from the quote?

[ClubV12]

CoAspen, I thought the main principle was very clear, don't use EGW quotes out of context or to support a position that is not in harmony with her views. As I mentioned concerning Dr. Kellogg he was notably proficient at doing that in his book, "Living Temple"!

To all:

As it concerns "cheese" the counsel is clear, you can use whatever arguments you want to justify why it is or isn't OK. I accept her clear and pointed counsel, regardless of what the "Dairy Association" has to say. "Cheese is wholly unfit for food", period, exclamation point, end of story, it is what it is. What YOU choose to do with that statement is none of my business, but if you ask me, I'll repeat what Sister White had to say on the subject, just a statement of fact. No twisting, no debate, no pressure.

epaminondas,

The arguments you here present have been hashed over for a 100 years. People were saying such in her time and since. As to scientific "fact" there is much Sister White said that HAS BEEN confirmed by science since and is still being confirmed. But I and many others who accept the FACT that Sister White was an inspired prophet of the Lord, in the same sense that Paul, or Mark or John the Revelator was, don't rely on "science, falsely so called". The "proof" is that she draws people to the feet of Jesus and Him crucified, or gives them hooks on which to hang their doubts. The great bulk and body of her work is sufficient "proof" for those seeking an answer as to her inspiration.

I will not wait until every line, every word she spoke is proven by science before I believe. Many people use similiar arguments to deny the accuracy of the bible. Science says evolution, the bible says creation, I accept the bible, others point to "man" for their source of information. Choose you this day whom you will serve. I accept Ellen White as a prophet. Those who wait for every ounce of doubt to be removed will still be waiting when the Lord returns. It's OK to ask questions about it, to wonder about it, to consider the evidence, but at some point, you need to make a decision.

Only two camps in the end, those who believe and those who don't. Choose carefully.

[John317]

...Ellen White, in a vision, mentioned planets with so many moons. Captain Bates, an amateur astronomer identified the planets with Jupiter, Saturn and Uranus. Later, in 1847, in A Word to the Little Flock, James White specifically mentioned Jupiter and Saturn. Despite having decades to do so, she never corrected either of them. We now know the count of the moons was wrong and in keeping what was known at the time of the vision about the planets concerned. This is important, she got the moons right for the planets concerned according to the knowledge at the time. Now do a bit of math and work out the probability of that happening for several planets.

Ellen White never mentioned the name of the planet. She did not know the name of the planet.

Captain Bates and others mentioned certain planets on the basis of her description. They were obviously wrong.

Actually, the number of moons she mentioned is wrong for those planets that Joseph Bates believed were in the vision. But Bates was unaware of this fact.

If Ellen White had given a different number of moons, Joseph Bates wouldn't have accepted Ellen White's vision.

[John317]

Amen!

[John317]

We can briefly discuss some of the issues you raise, but as ClubV has brought out, all of them have been discussed many, many times before. Also, this thread is not about whether Ellen White is a true prophet of God. It's about the context and meaning of a particular EGW quote that Lazarus posted at the beginning of the discussion.

[John317]

We know about the food for worms prophesy. The unspoken condition scenario can be invoked by any unfulfilled prophesy, so it doesn't wash. In Jonah's case the prophesy was reversed before it was due to happen, so it's not comparable. This is just a plain, unfulfilled prophesy.

Christ could have come in the 1890s and even before if Seventh-day Adventists had accepted the Three Angels Messages and united in proclaiming them under the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Bible itself contains many conditional prophecies, predictions that will never be fulfilled literally.

[Pockey]

I like this unedited Ellen White (and the edited too). She's got spirit.

[John317]

Yes, she sure did. She was a wonderful, godly woman, who loved everyone, but she also knew it was her work to tell the truth, even though it often "cut." She actually didn't enjoy that part of her work, but she knew it was necessary.

[ClubV12]

Sister White, "Unplugged" and raw. :)

[steve9534]

Epiminondas (?sp?)

I'm curious where EGW is supposed to have connected eating pork with leprosy. I don't recall ever seeing or hearing that before???

Cream is the basis for cheese and the difference I can see is that cheese is cultured and thus would contain the waste products of metabolism from the bacterial cultures.

The prophecy about certain individuals being food for worms has not been fulfilled. I don't know how many prophecies she made, but one conditional prophecy out of the hundreds wouldn't seem extraordinary to me. She did say that Jesus would have come before now (c.1900) if the Adventists of the day had done their work as God intended. The implication is clear enough that certain prophecies concerning the end would not be fulfilled given that failure. I don't see a reason to reject her on the basis of this prophecy. Jesus said that "this generation will not pass away before all these things are fulfilled" Matt. 24:34. So far He's not sent His angels and the trumpet has not sounded, and the elect have not been gathered, yet the people of His day are all dead. Using the criteria you've set for EGW it would seem logical to declare Jesus a false prophet and reject His message also on the basis of this prophecy.

Finally, I live where vitamin D deficiency is reasonably common due to the long winters and lack of sun exposure. steve.

[ClubV12]

"Pork, although one of the most common articles of diet, is one of the most injurious. God did not prohibit the Hebrews from eating swine’s flesh merely to show His authority, but because it was not a proper article of food for man. It would fill the system with scrofula, and especially in that warm climate produced leprosy, and disease of various kinds. Its influence upon the system in that climate was far more injurious than in a colder climate. But God never designed the swine to be eaten under any circumstances. The heathen used pork as an article of food, and American people have used pork freely as an important article of diet. Counsels on Diet and Foods (392)...."

NOTE:

"scrofula", an infection of the lymph nodes (usually in the neck) associated with tuberculosis. Uncommon today, but making a come back in some AIDS patients.

"But it is not the physical health alone which is injured by pork eating. The mind is affected, and the finer sensibilities are blunted by the use of this gross article of food. It is impossible for the flesh of any living creatures to be healthy when filth is their natural element, and when they will feed upon every detestable thing. The flesh of swine is composed of what they eat. If human beings eat their flesh, their blood and their flesh will be corrupted by impurities conveyed to them through the swine." {CD 393.1}

The eating of pork has produced scrofula, leprosy, and cancerous humors. Pork eating is still causing the most intense suffering to the human race."

Counsels on Diet and Foods (393)

Sister White knew what she was talking about because the Lord had revealed these things to her through visions. This is not "personal opinion" or based on "popular belief" of her day. This was inspiration and science has yet to catch up,,, Doctor. By the way, if you know anyone with AIDS, I would highly recommend you advise them to stop eating pork!!!

Looks pretty clear to me.

In addition may I offer my considered opinion:

The health message above all else is for us to have a clearer mind to receive and understand truth, from the bible or any other source. I submit that it is impossible to fully understand the Adventist message in a deeper and balanced way while ignoring the health message. Any violation of Gods direction for lifestyle choices limits your understanding of spiritual things, health counsel in particular applies.

[epaminondas]

"I'm curious where EGW is supposed to have connected eating pork with leprosy. I don't recall ever seeing or hearing that before???"

Advent Review and Sabbath Herald, June 20, 1899 (Vol. 76, #25) "Disease and Its Causes"--3

"The eating of pork has produced scrofula, leprosy, and cancerous humors. Pork-eating is still causing the most intense suffering to the human race. "

I've never eaten pork because, even as a kid, the sickly sweet taste made me sick. Same goes for tea. It smells like weeds soaked in boiling water. As for alcohol, here's my bit: The Alcohol Non Sequitur

Where did you get the bit about bacterial waste products in cheese from? Any scientific backing, like the facts about cream, or plucked from thin air?

Do these vitamin D deficient people actually get rickets and malformed bones? Vitamin D is common in many foods, including cheese, which I don't eat much of because of its high fat content. At my age it's easier putting weight on than taking it off. I've cut off ears and parts of ears due to sun induced skin malignancies and know of one patient who died. Worse than sub-clinical vitamin D deficiency, is it not?

The facts are on my side. One's faith should be fact based and not blind. I joined the SDA church because, at that time, they were more interested in facts. Now they're just like the charismatics, it's feelings all the way. Who cares about facts? Not us in the SDA church!

[John317]

As Moderator:

This is getting way off the topic of discussion. There are other threads where these things are discussed. Let's get it back on the topic of the Ellen White quote.

[steve9534]

I've looked for information relating to diet and Leprosy. The western literature is so sparse regarding this disease that it's difficult to find much information. I did find a couple of articles regarding the importance of a nutritious diet and/or dietary deficiencies and leprosy. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3286801 and http://www.rawfoodinfo.com/articles/rsrch_Schnitzer.html.

A lack of information is not confirmation of non causality.

Bacterial cultures are in the making of cheese, they metabolize and produce waste. I'm not sure why you would believe otherwise???

The folks with Vitamin D deficiency I deal with are usually elderly and broken. A hip fracture in an elderly woman is not a subclinical or insignificant event. steve.

[Pockey]

Yes, she sure did. She was a wonderful, godly woman, who loved everyone, but she also knew it was her work to tell the truth, even though it often "cut." She actually didn't enjoy that part of her work, but she knew it was necessary.

That part of her work must've made her feel alone sometimes. (I don't mean without God, but in relation to other humans). Praise to the God she didn't give up. I imagine she will have quite a pleasant surprise when she sees the fruit of her labor

[Dr. Waite]

Ellen White always taught that we should first study and accept the Bible before studying the SoP.

If we read and accept all of Ellen White's writings, we won't be confused about what she was saying in the above quote. The problem comes when we don't make the Bible our primary focus, when we don't consider everything she wrote on a particular topic and fail to take into account the context of her statements.

What is the purpose of the testimonies?

"The word of God is sufficient to enlighten the most beclouded mind and may be understood by those who have any desire to understand it. But notwithstanding all this, some who profess to make the word of God their study are found living in direct opposition to its plainest teachings. Then, to leave men and women without excuse, God gives plain and pointed testimonies, bringing them back to the word that they have neglected to follow. Yet those who serve their own lusts turn from all this light. They will not cease their course of sin, but continue to take pleasure in unrighteousness in the face of the threatenings and vengeance of God against those who do such things. {2T 454.4}"

[phkrause]

What is the purpose of the testimonies?

"The word of God is sufficient to enlighten the most beclouded mind and may be understood by those who have any desire to understand it. But notwithstanding all this, some who profess to make the word of God their study are found living in direct opposition to its plainest teachings. Then, to leave men and women without excuse, God gives plain and pointed testimonies, bringing them back to the word that they have neglected to follow. Yet those who serve their own lusts turn from all this light. They will not cease their course of sin, but continue to take pleasure in unrighteousness in the face of the threatenings and vengeance of God against those who do such things. {2T 454.4}"

I think that passage answers your question rather nicely! Don't you think? I think one of the biggest problems, is people do like to read all sorts of books but not the Bible! So when they read her books she lets them know that they should be reading the Bible. She points us to the Bible. And also as has been brought out many times, she helps many to understand the Bible when questions arise about certain passages that we don't quite get.

[BobRyan]

Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what "Sister White said"-- "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that," and "Sister White said the other thing." But say, "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel," and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what he says.

Spalding and Megan Collection 169 (Unpublished manuscripts)

How funny that little twist at the end where it is pretended that the above "is a quote" from the Spalding and Megan collection.

Is that what we are supposed to comment on?

[BobRyan]

"They will tell you that Sister White did this, or Sister White did that,--for instance, "Sister White ate cheese, and so we are all at liberty to eat cheese." Who told them that I ate cheese? I never have cheese on my table."

Spalding and Magan Collection, pg 169. Leaves-Of-Autumn Books.

Another says, "Sister White drinks tea, and we can drink tea." Who of my brethren has made that statement? Who has ever heard it of me? I never have tea in my home or set it before anyone. Now I have not eaten any meat for years and years. Spalding and Magan Collection. (169). Leaves-Of-Autumn Books.

Much better.

[BobRyan]

Cheese is a huge sacred cow. As children we were raised to welcome it as health food. (Madison Avenue) But it brings bad skin, constipation and mucus - catarrh is the term employed by EGW. And of course heart disease, strokes and a spare tire. While meat & dairy bring sickness, cheese has been especially earmarked for exclusion:

"it is wholly unfit for food." Ministry of Healing 302.

"Cheese should never be introduced into the stomach" 2 Testimonies 68.

"...enfeebling the intellect..." Counsels on Health 114.

Forks over Knives --- Ellen White is back!

[ClubV12]

"Who told them that I ate cheese?"

"Sister White drinks tea, and we can drink tea." Who of my brethren has made THAT statement? Who has ever heard it of me?"

EGW

I want names, right now, who is saying this stuff? Where are these uncircumcised phillistines? These cheese eatin', tea drinkin' rascals. Were gonna get to the bottom of this....

Well, isn't that how some of us might follow it up, in thought if not in action? With sword drawn and at the ready to lop off a few ears. Oh wretched man that I am, ever ready to root out the evil in others with that huge beam in my eye.

[Overaged]

quote=lazarus]Lay Sister White right to one side: lay her to one side. Don't you never quote my words again as long as you live, until you can obey the Bible. When you take the Bible and make that your food, and your meat, and your drink, and make that the elements of your character, when you can do that you will know better how to receive some counsel from God. But here is the Word, the precious Word, exalted before you today. And don't you give a rap any more what "Sister White said"-- "Sister White said this," and "Sister White said that," and "Sister White said the other thing." But say, "Thus saith the Lord God of Israel," and then you do just what the Lord God of Israel does, and what he says.

Spalding and Megan Collection 169 (Unpublished manuscripts)

/quote]

How funny that little twist at the end where it is pretended that the above "is a quote" from the Spalding and Megan collection.

Is that what we are supposed to comment on?

What on earth are you talking about? Who is pretending what?

[steve9534]

I'd like to speak to a couple of other assertions which were made regarding EGW.

The comment about the planets and moons seemed confusing to me, but I believe that the point the poster was trying to make was that Ellen White must not be a prophet because she failed to correct a misinterpretation of one of her visions??? If my understanding of the comment is correct, then a lifetime would be insufficient to resolve the many misinterpretations of her words and positions. Again, the poster sets an impossible standard that neither Jesus, nor any of the Bible prophets are recorded as having met.

Insanity is defined by Merriam-Webster as "a deranged state of the mind usually occurring as a specific disorder (as schizophrenia)" and schizophrenia as "a psychotic disorder characterized by loss of contact with the environment". It would not seem absurd that some of those who spend their days reading and thinking of fictional environments might lose contact with the real environment. steve.