1335 Futurists, their BACK!

[ClubV12]

The Pastor just returned from some conference in Washington state. Where the concept of Daniel 12 and the literal "days" interpretation was presented to the delegates. I met with the Pastor tonight on an unrelated bible study where he just briefly mentioned it. When I said I was aware of it and have been studying it he almost fell off his chair.

He's pretty excited, thinks this is "new light". I'm pretty scared, maybe it is, maybe it's a massive delusion about to sweep into the church?

One thing for sure, this aint going away. The 1335 "days" are back. Locally this will be presented to a small select group of members in a private home as a study of the issue. I'll be there, try to remain open, but I'm pretty skeptical of it from what I've seen and studied on it to date.

Whew,,, new light? Or VERY slick error? Fasten your seat belts, it's coming.

[Nan]

This interpretation of Daniel 12 is not new....from the little I have read of what Mrs White commented on it, I do not think

she believed the fulfilment to be future...but plenty will argue that it is.

[Gordon1]

Hi Club & Nan,

As we know, the language of Daniel 12 is "the time of the end." Many have been lulled by traditional interpretation, probably due to U. Smith's influence, and so place the 1290 & 1335 days in the past. And it remains the standard Revelation Seminar position. Most of the pastors get trained with this bent, all branching from the same seminary root.

But the 'future application' should not seem revolutionary or novel (new light). Rather, it's probably old light which has been covered up by SDA tradition.

"Let us read and study the 12th chapter of Daniel. It is a warning we shall all need to understand before the time of the end." Letter 161 July 30, 1903.

It's likely she wrote much more upon this subject, if she truly felt "we shall all need to understand". But large portions of her work were kept unpublished until the 1990s (Manuscript Releases). There is no tranparency here. Many thousands of SDAs were born and died without access to that light. Did she write for recreation - no, of course not - it was light for the people. Since 'Daniel 12 as future' conflicts with the published church history (Smith) and current teaching, it would be embarrasing to let more comments get out of the bag.

If she can write such an urgent warning in 1903, we should look a little closer.

"...we shall all need to understand..."

[skyblue888]

Yes Gordon, we shall all need to understand chapter 12 and not chapter 12 only but other chapters as well and the book of Revelation but did she mean that the time prophecies of that chapter 12 were to be re-applied when she specifically said that after 1844 there will never again be a message to the people of God that will be based on time?

sky :)

[Gordon1]

When I said I was aware of it and have been studying it he almost fell off his chair.

He could have saved the airfare.

[Gordon1]

He could have saved the airfare.

That's the 1888 message. Christ will meet us where we are, two or three gathered together in His name. That's His church.

[ClubV12]

Sister White has very little to say on the subject, other than what has already been noted. We need to study Daniel, but thats about it. "We" have the same knowledge today on the subject that all Adventists have had since Sister Whites time, "not much".

I very much believe that the bulk of "new light" will be "old light" with new understanding. But in THIS case, I do believe this is entirely "new light" with no basis on anything the pioneers knew about it. I would not be to quick to dismiss their work, like Uriah Smith for example. It "bothers me" that some proposed "new light" calls into question old light instead of building on the foundation already layed.

The whole thing just doesn't feel right to me... Desmond Ford would support this new concept, it is basically in harmony with his thoughts on the sanctuary. And if you know Adventist history, you know how THAT turned out! Kenneth Cox, a retired Adventist evangelist supports this. Marion Barry was quite the author and early proponent of the idea. She renounced her membership in the Adventist church over it. It was presented to the GC some years ago, they rejected it.

Something seems to have changed, now they appear to be accepting it! What does that mean? That they were wrong the first time but now their right?

One thing for sure, it's coming to a church near you.

[skyblue888]

It's like politics. When a certain idea becomes popular with the masses it is adopted for political purposes.

Club, why don't you put this thing to rest? The Lord through Mrs. White clearly said that there will never again be a message to the people of God that will be based on time. Re-read 1 S.M.188-191.

Gordon, you believe these time-prophecies are to be re-applied even in the face of the references above?

sky

[Gordon1]

but did she mean that the time prophecies of that chapter 12 were to be re-applied when she specifically said that after 1844 there will never again be a message to the people of God that will be based on time?

Thanks, sky. I've seen this is a hot topic elsewhere but I've not followed it. I'm no seminarian nor U. Smith student, so don't have this background. It's possible the passages of Daniel 12 have no former application. Of course before the Great Disappointment, all the prophecies were jammed into a pre-1843 window.

But if EGW actually penned these words, I'd see them as related to future forecasting. There's something different about Daniel 12, and sobering. These periods may follow the close of probation.

And if so, why would we "all need to understand" Daniel 12 before the time of the end?

That seems to be the important issue.

[12tribes]

Revelation 10:6

(6) And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

This verse is telling us that after 1844 there would be no more prophetic time but, for those who teach that there is we have No Time = Time.

[Gordon1]

club & sky,

Doug Batchelor broke convention some years ago and suggested a future application of Daniel 12. A bold move only possible for a heavyweight - smaller voices would be fired for breaking ranks. One can't dump an icon like Doug, the economics are too good. But he got his knuckles rapped anyway - I don't know his position today.

[skyblue888]

Gordon, these prophecies reached to the rise of the Advent movement, as we all know. If it hadn't been for unbelief on the part of the advent people, the third angel's message would have been proclaimed in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit and probation would have closed a short time after 1844 and Jesus would have come. See G.C.457,458. There was no need to re-apply these prophecies then and they weren't and there is no need to re-apply them now.

You state that these periods may follow the close of probation.

If this were true one would be able to pin-point when probation shall close and then make his calculations and that way he would be able to pin-point the time for the second coming!

I urge you to re-read 1 S.M.188-191.

Notice how on page 191 we are told that "God has not revealed to us the time when this message (third angel's message) will close, or when probation shall have an end."

In order for these periods to be of any use to us we would need to know when probation has closed so we could make our calculations. There are those who start making their calculations for these periods with the enactment of the Sunday Law. With these calculations they may know when probation shall close and also when Jesus shall return which would be at the end of the 1335 days.

We cannot do this Gordon, or can we?

sky

Yes, we need to understand that these periods reached to 1844 and that Jesus could have returned shortly after that date and that if He has not returned it can only mean that because of unbelief or insubordination on the part of God's professed people the finishing of the work and Christ's second coming have been delayed.

[ClubV12]

Sky, man would I love to put this to rest, in fact, I THOUGHT I had! On Tuesday nights there is a small group of us who meet and study various subjects. Sometimes the Pastor is there, or not, he's welcome of course, but it's not "his" study. After our study last night he mentioned this new concept and how it was presented at the Washington Conference. A few of us have already looked into it, which was quite an eye opener for him. Anyway, the "group" voted to have yet another study on a different night than Tuesday to look into this, the Pastor will present it. The "group" is largely unaware of this as only a few of us have looked into it. So their all excited about this "new light", from the "Conference", delivered by the Pastor.

Let it go? I wish, it's just been dropped back into my lap like a hot potato.

For those that present apparently good arguments against the concept, like "no setting of time", believe me, this concept has an answer to that and every other question you can throw it. Their answers appear reasonable, logical, bible based and in full harmony with Ellen Whites writings. But I still don't buy it, I see "holes" in this thing that bother, a lot.

As to "time setting" the idea is that we will never again place a time on the 2nd coming, and this doesn't. BUT, we could "set time" for events leading UP TO the 2nd coming. Sounds plausible, right?

[skyblue888]

club & sky,

Doug Batchelor broke convention some years ago and suggested a future application of Daniel 12. A bold move only possible for a heavyweight - smaller voices would be fired for breaking ranks. One can't dump an icon like Doug, the economics are too good. But he got his knuckles rapped anyway - I don't know his position today.

The Lord doesn't care how great one's name is in the sight of men. The testimonies are clear. "There will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time. We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit or for the coming of Christ." 1 S.M.188.

And that is just what the re-applying of these prophecies does.

Let us just think about that.

sky

[ClubV12]

Amen on "who" is delivering the message, or where it came from (GC, Conference, church janitor)! I could care less how many letters a person has after his name or how good the resume looks or his/her "excellent" history. I'm not demeaning anyone, certainly some folks command more respect than others, some just carry more weight than others and are not easily dismissed.

But we need to stay focused on the message itself and hold fast that which is good. Not base our conclusions on who the messenger is or where he/she came from.

[Gordon1]

sky & club,

I'm having a look at 1SM. Also Daniel 12.

Sky, are you saying 1290 and 1335 were necessary to reach the 1844 date? Is not the 2300 days sufficient, going back to the final command to rebuild Jerusalem? (Cyrus?)

Janitors & farmers are fine. Titles and letters are signs of Greek influence.

[ClubV12]

You really don't need the 1290 and 1335 to validate Millers work, the 2300 can stand alone without them. The 1260 is more problematic, it would be tough to remove THAT and still uphold Millers work.

[skyblue888]

Gordon, thanks for taking the time to take a look at 1 S.M.188-191.

These time prophecies don't have to be "necessary" in order for the 2,300 day prophecy to be fulfilled but they open a window as to the experience of those who were waiting for His coming in that era. That's all.

Club, the 1260 day prophecy pointed to the time when the papacy would receive her deadly wound, in 1798. What does this have to with Miller per se? He did not come on the scene until twenty some years after that time. He had more to do with the 1290 and 1335 day prophecy, don't you think?

sky

[ClubV12]

Consider this:

Of what VALUE is this new concept of Daniel 12, these proposed future dates of event yet to unfold? Is it a salvation issue, are we at risk of being lost if we don't know? Is it critical to our experience in some way to understand and know this?

Some "1335 Futurists" suggest the idea is that knowing the time of trouble will last for three years or more we need to be able to grow our own food. Or we will starve and/or be at the mercy of those who DO grow their own food (other Saints). Others say the "Lord will provide" so no worries about having that country home, we will have mana if need be. That does sound a bit presumptous though...

[skyblue888]

Again Club, if there were to be a message for the people of God that would be based on time after 1844, it would be important for us to understand such a time prophecy in order to know where we are in the unrolling of the prophetic scroll and the Lord would reveal it to His people. However He has already given us the order of last day events without given us any time prophecy whatsoever.

So this means that righteousness by faith is the interest that should prevail and the subject that should swallow up every other. This message does not need any time prophecy for it will do its work. It need not time to strenghten it and it will go with mighty power and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousness.

There are no more time prophecies that we need to be concerned about after 1844.

Mrs. White is clear as to how God shall provide bread and water to His faithful few once they will no longer be able to buy or sell.

sky

[ClubV12]

Yup, thats pretty much the way I see it to Sky.

I don't see WHAT the point of all this is, other than to distract and confuse us, to take our eyes off Jesus.

I have an obligation to hang with these "excited folks" as they study this "new light", but I'm not looking forward to it.

[skyblue888]

I'm glad to hear that. Club, here is a suggestion. When you go to the meeting, why don't u bring Vol.1 of Selected Messages with you, and read to them what is said there about time prophecies... and then suggest to them that the moment you want to re-apply these prophecies you need a point of reference and the moment you have a point of reference you cannot help but end up with predicting when probation shall close and when Jesus shall appear in the clouds of heaven.

It is undeniable that most of those who hold to the view that these periods have a future application agree that the enactment of the National Sunday Law in the US will be the starting point for these periods. There may be some who hold to the view that the close of probation will be the starting point. But it does not make any difference. Both theories would give us the time when probation has closed and when Jesus shall return.

So according to these theories, from their starting point, one could predict that Jesus would return 75 days after the 1260 days would have been fulfilled.

And that we cannot do for "You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years." 1 S.M.190.

What do you think?

sky

[ClubV12]

I'll add that to my growing list of things I'd like to say, before they tie me up and throw me out the back door. :)

[skyblue888]

hehehe

[Gail]

Yup, thats pretty much the way I see it to Sky.

I don't see WHAT the point of all this is, other than to distract and confuse us, to take our eyes off Jesus.

You got it! Distractions are on every side these days, I'm finding.