1335 Futurists, their BACK!

[John317]

It's likely she wrote much more upon this subject, if she truly felt "we shall all need to understand". But large portions of her work were kept unpublished until the 1990s (Manuscript Releases). There is no tranparency here. Many thousands of SDAs were born and died without access to that light. Did she write for recreation - no, of course not - it was light for the people. Since 'Daniel 12 as future' conflicts with the published church history (Smith) and current teaching, it would be embarrasing to let more comments get out of the bag.

If she can write such an urgent warning in 1903, we should look a little closer.

"...we shall all need to understand..."

The EGW Estate wasn't trying to cover up anything. The material that is in the Manuscript Releases was available for people to see before they were released.

Ellen White didn't write very much in regard to Daniel 12, but everything she did write has already been published. It is simply untrue that the EGW Estate was attempting to hide anything that she had written about Daniel 12 or the 1335 days. There's no valid evidence to support such a charge.

[skyblue888]

There is nothing to hide since she stated that there would never again be a message for the people of God that would be based on time after 1844.

sky :)

[John317]

...Marion Barry was quite the author and early proponent of the idea. She renounced her membership in the Adventist church over it.

I was unaware of that.

What does this say about Marion Barry and her idea of the 1335 days? I don't think it reflects well on her views.

[John317]

...Both theories would give us the time when probation has closed and when Jesus shall return.

So according to these theories, from their starting point, one could predict that Jesus would return 75 days after the 1260 days would have been fulfilled.

And that we cannot do for "You will not be able to say that He will come in one, two, or five years, neither are you to put off His coming by stating that it may not be for ten or twenty years." 1 S.M.190.

Extrememly important points.

[John317]

I don't see WHAT the point of all this is, other than to distract and confuse us, to take our eyes off Jesus.

Yes, exactly. Specifically, to take our eyes off the importance of the heavenly sanctuary and the blotting out of sins.

[Gordon1]

Club makes the valid point, what VALUE would Daniel 12 have for us today?

EGW evidently claimed that we needed to understand it - was she wrong on this point?

Consider: The last three chapters of Daniel are actually one single story, most of it a narrative by Gabriel ending at Daniel 12:4. We dwell on other chapters with some success, but there has never been an SDA consensus on chapters 10-12.

Perhaps there is something here we "need to understand".

Keep in mind that Daniel "understood not" (v.8), but that Christ told him "the wise shall understand" (v.10) In addition EGW said the last verses of Daniel 11 (30-45) would be repeated, as I recall. Daniel 12 follows immediately.

Daniel 10-12 is not ready to be shelved. Christ is in there, the Son of God, reaching unto heaven and swaring by "Him that liveth for ever". (v.7)

[John317]

Club makes the valid point, what VALUE would Daniel 12 have for us today?

EGW evidently claimed that we needed to understand it - was she wrong on this point?

...Daniel 10-12 is not ready to be shelved. Christ is in there, the Son of God, reaching unto heaven and swaring by "Him that liveth for ever". (v.7)

No, Ellen G. White was not wrong. We certainly do need to understand Daniel 12.

For one thing, there is this key text:

Quote:

Daniel 12:10

Many shall purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined, but the wicked shall act wickedly. And none of the wicked shall understand, but those who are wise shall understand.

This shows that before Christ returns, there will be a time when God's people will purify themselves and make themselves white and be refined.

The wicked will not believe this is necessary; they won't understand it.

If you put this passage with the Three Angels Messages of Rev. 14 and with the statements of Ellen White in The Great Controversy in the chapter on the sanctuary, it is plain that Daniel 12: 10 is a passage that we all most urgently need to understand. When we see the relationships between these verses and those other sources, it becomes clear that they are pointing us to the blotting out of sins in the heavenly sanctuary. But this blotting out of sins won't happen unless we stop bringing more sins to the heavenly sanctuary. In other words, the blotting out of sins in the heavenly sanctuary happens at the same time that we are separating sin from ourselves so that God blots them out of our lives. This must be done before Jesus can return. That's the significance of Daniel 12 which we need to understand.

But in order to understand Daniel 12, it isn't necessary to consider the 1290 and the 1335 days of verses 11 and 12 to be literal days reaching to the second coming of Christ.

[Gordon1]

The EGW Estate wasn't trying to cover up anything. The material that is in the Manuscript Releases was available for people to see before they were released.

Ellen White didn't write very much in regard to Daniel 12, but everything she did write has already been published. It is simply untrue that the EGW Estate was attempting to hide anything that she had written about Daniel 12 or the 1335 days. There's no valid evidence to support such a charge.

Hi John,

Unpublished manuscripts are accessible to very few, esp. if they lack transportation & library skills. It's fine if one has an education and lives in Loma Linda or Maryland. But what of the Kansas farmer or Kenyan day-labourer? (Or any Canadian?) It took 75 years to make these public since she died, despite the enormous resources of our publishing businesses.

How can you know this is all she wrote on Daniel 12? Quite possibly there is another batch for publication in 2050. Was this not the claim for many years, that all her work was already in print?

[John317]

.. Was this not the claim for many years, that all her work was already in print?

This was never said by the EGW Estate. What they said was that all of her essential material or teachings have been published. I've never seen a statement by the EGW Estate to the effect that everything she wrote was already in print.

When I first started going to the Estate branch here in Loma Linda during the middle to late 70s, Jim Nix was pretty much the only one working in it. I would often come in and talk with him and read material. When I asked him about the material that hadn't been published before, he said that it wasn't anything that would add to, or contradict, what she had said in the books already in print. I believe he was right.

Do you agree that the Manuscript Releases didn't add anything new to her teachings that we didn't already know?

Yes, there is material she wrote that still is not published, but it also doesn't add anything to her essential teachings.

The fact is that there is no writer who's ever lived whose writings have been made so available to the world and whose life is so open for close scrutiny. You could probably find out what she was doing on every day of her life from about 1860 onwards, perhaps even what she had to eat on any specific date. That is not too far fetched.

[ClubV12]

"But in order to understand Daniel 12, it isn't necessary to consider the 1290 and the 1335 days of verses 11 and 12 to be literal days reaching to the second coming of Christ."

This is what I meant when I asked if we needed to understand Daniel 12. Of course we do. But I'm not convinced the "1335 Futurist" view is one we need to understand or is even relevant.

All though, NOW thats it's "up close and personal" in my local church and leadership is all excited about it, yeah, I need to know about it.

I thought this kind of stuff only happened in Calfornia. Here we are in a small sleepy town in Oregon, minding my own business and life is good. Where did THIS come from?? :)

[Gordon1]

Yes, there is material she wrote that still is not published.

Thanks John, do you have a source?

[skyblue888]

I agree with John that the words, "The wise shall understand" have to do with the third angel's message and the cleansing of the sanctuary and therefore with the cleansing of the soul temple before the close of probation.

"Many shall be purified and made white, and tested, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand." Dan.12:10.

Notice these words from the apostle Paul:

"Wherefore, be ye not unwise but understand what the will of the Lord is. And be not drunk with wine in which is excess, but be filled with the Spirit." Eph.5:17,18.

We are wise if we know that the will of the Lord for us is that we be filled with the Spirit but we are wiser if we understand how we may be filled with this gift which cannot be excelled and which brings all other blessings in its train.

The Lord has already given the command: "Be filled with the Spirit."

This is His will.

But, of course, none but those who have been made to feel their need of the Spirit can be filled. None but those who have been made to feel their great need and to hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled and be purified and made white.

There is only one condition for this to happen and that is that these daily come to God just as they are, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Then the soul-cleansing blood is applied.

"John, while in vision, saw a company of people clothed in white robes. They were seen in the Temple of God. This will be the result of all who will lay hold of the merits of Christ and wash their robes (of character) in His blood." E.G. White, OUr Father Cares, 339.

"By faith take hold of the merits of Christ and the soul-cleansing blood will be applied." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.94.

And how are they to lay hold of the merits of Christ? By claiming them. Yes, by claiming them. (T.M.93) It is that simple and then the command "Be filled with the Spirit," is a promise to them, a most positive promise of its own fufillment.

Thus they are to be purified and made white and tested by the great final test at the end of the loud cry and pass the scrutiny of the judgment of the living, receive the final seal and go through the time of Jacob's trouble and be translated without seeing death.

sky

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Yes, there is material she wrote that still is not published.

Thanks John, do you have a source?

The EGW Estate. I just got off the phone with the lady who runs the Branch Office here in Loma Linda.

I'm sure that if you call the Estate in Maryland, they'll confirm it. You can talk directly to Elder Fagal, an associate director.

Or write to: mail@whiteestate.org

[John317]

[John317]

....But, of course, none but those who have been made to feel their need of the Spirit can be filled. None but those who have been made to feel their great need and to hunger and thirst for righteousness will be filled and be purified and made white.

There is only one condition for this to happen and that is that these daily come to God just as they are, sinful, helpless, dependent, trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. Then the soul-cleansing blood is applied.

"John, while in vision, saw a company of people clothed in white robes. They were seen in the Temple of God. This will be the result of all who will lay hold of the merits of Christ and wash their robes (of character) in His blood." E.G. White, OUr Father Cares, 339.

"By faith take hold of the merits of Christ and the soul-cleansing blood will be applied." E.G. White, Faith and Works, p.94.

And how are they to lay hold of the merits of Christ? By claiming them. Yes, by claiming them. (T.M.93) It is that simple and then the command "Be filled with the Spirit," is a promise to them, a most positive promise of its own fufillment.

Thus they are to be purified and made white and tested by the great final test at the end of the loud cry and pass the scrutiny of the judgment of the living, receive the final seal and go through the time of Jacob's trouble and be translated without seeing death.

I believe that if we do this-- continually laying hold of the merits of Christ-- God will do the work in us that needs to be done. That is, God will lovingly lead us by His Spirit to acknowledge the sins in our lives that need to be repented of and overcome. As we come to Christ, relying completely on His merits, seeking God's will, He will convict us of what needs to be changed in our lives and then He will provide us with all the power to do it.

[John317]

But in order to understand Daniel 12, it isn't necessary to consider the 1290 and the 1335 days of verses 11 and 12 to be literal days reaching to the second coming of Christ.

I am keeping an open mind to the evidence about the 1290 and 1335 days, but as of now I don't see it as a true doctrine. But I'll wait to study all the evidence before I make up my mind one way or the other.

[skyblue888]

John, i don't understand why we would need to weigh all the evidence regarding this matter when the Lord has clearly told us that after 1844 there will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time.

sky :)

[John317]

You do have a valid, good point, sky.

I'd like to pose that same question to Doug Batchelor and Kenneth Cox. According Cox's book on Daniel, the 1335 days bring us down to the second coming, although I understand that Cox really means it brings us to a "blessing" that just preceeds the Second Coming. However, if it brings us down to just before the second coming, it is really telling us when the second coming will occur. It seems to me the difference is a technical one.

[skyblue888]

Thanks John. If our people were made aware of this they would see that re-applying these time prophecies cannot originate with God.

sky

[ClubV12]

You know there are so many different versions of this thing I'm wondering if we should start by asking someone who they follow on it. Paul or Apollos or Ken Cox or Barry or Doug or, ad infinitum...

But what really bothers me is the way it has become an "argument" in my church. When that happened over the "daily" in 1919 Sister White told them all to just shut up. I've heard plenty of snide remarks, subtle accusations, demeaning statements, the typical Sister White comments. "She wasn't perfect you know." "She didn't have all the light you know." "Some of her writings were opinion." And toward myself, "I see your not a serious bible student, you make to much of Ellen White." "Uriah Smith got it all wrong." "William Miller made mistakes."

We shouldn't have to be so negative about other people and the pioneers if we REALLY have something of value to share. Stabbing someone in the back to climb the next rung of the biblical corporate ladder is not of God.

Get back to me when this all gets sorted out and there is resemblance of harmony and a LOT less arguing.

[Gordon1]

Daniel 12 takes time.

[skyblue888]

Club, so what if there are so many versions of it. Who cares if you believe that there will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time! If we know that, why bother except to let others know that any attempt to re-apply these periods can only be bogus and tell them why.

sky :)

[ClubV12]

I just found out that what was presented at the Washington Conference was a study or book by a fellow named ROSENBERG, or possibly RUSENBERG.

Anybody ever heard of this guy?

There is a Joel Rosenberg who is quite a prolific author of end time book and Government conspiracies and a strong supporter of the nation of Israel. A non-Adventist, whew, I hope he's not the guy their talking about.

[John317]

Never heard of him before.

Have you ever heard of Eugene Prewitt? He's recently come out with a very good book called, Deeper: Investigating the Integrity of Our Prophetic Foundations. (Gail is the one who told me about this book, so when I saw it at the ABC, I immediately snatched up a copy and began studying it.)

I've mentioned it before. It has a wonderful chapter near the end on the 1290 and 1335 day prophecies of Daniel 12.

I believe he makes an excellent case for the view that if these prophecies are removed from past fulfillement, it does great harm to the foundation of the Adventist Movement. I agree with him. Those dates are significant for the unsealing of the book of Daniel and the importance of the years 1798 and 1843. They are also important for identifying the sea-beast of Rev. 13.

It seems to me that it would suit Satan's plan just fine for SDAs to waiver on the identity of those things and to begin to question and finally jettison all the prophecies which are pointing to fulfillments in our past. Once we lose them, people will find it almost impossible to see God's leading in our past history as a denomination.

[John317]

I couldn't agree with you more, ClubV12. I think we need to take notice when those things happen. I can't see them being the result of the moving of the Holy Spirit.