Was Christ Truly Tempted in all Points as Fallen Humanity?

[Raphael]

Was Christ truly (and not only symbolically) tested and tempted in all manners as us, fallen humanity?

For the sake of ‘the tested in all manners sake’ argument, let’s suppose that Christ came from a broken home, would He still have made it into victory? Let’s push the drama queen’s throttle a bit further… suppose Christ was mentally, emotionally and physically abused during His childhood as does happen here on homey sinful earth, could He still get victory? And how about if He was not only abused… but sexually molested far worse than that Hollywood widescreen movie plot titled Sleepers, as in our truly horrific parts of earth, could Christ still achieved victory? How about having it all combined like the so unnumbered unfortunate orphans, lost ones or terribly unprivileged ones, common not only in poor countries but in advance countries as well of existing continually in the most basic of survival modes (not only materially) throughout their lives, could Christ still make it into victory with these great reality shows of extreme all round testing and temptation? There are far more grotesque thriller scenarios but let’s not dramatize the drama queen’s role too much.

Again the question… Was Christ really in true highest definition rendering (and not only symbolically)… tested and tempted in all manners as correctly defined fallen humanity?

[John317]

For Christ to be tempted in all points as we are, He didn't need to experience everything humanity experiences. It is not saying that Christ was an alcoholic or a homosexual, etc. Nor is it saying that Christ was molested or had an alcoholic father or a mother who was a prostitute or drug addict.

The Bible is saying that Christ was tempted on the same fundamental principles that we are tempted on.

We see some of those principles at work during Christ's temptations in the wilderness.

They were genuine temptations-- meaning that He could have fallen-- and not at all merely symbolic. In fact, Christ's tempations were far stronger than any of the temptations that Adam or you and I have ever experienced.

[Raphael]

Hi,

To fit it in a nutshell...

The arrival of sin was far known by God but He still went on to create intelligent creatures, certainly not to play around with chance but He really knew what He was doing with a zero possibility of screwing up (because again He really knew what He was doing).

From infinity to infinity...

The life span of sin's existence is actually extremely insignificant in comparison to the time span between time's beginning (first intelligent creation) till the fall of Lucifer, his angelic followers and humanity. If it is compared to the future time span of saved humanity's eternal life... it becomes further pushed into extended irrelevance...

The dawn of sin's existence is simply the ordinary growing pain of progress and development, as human adolescents do, which in ordinary human life, is just a small part of his averaged lifespan.

God wants our community of intelligence to grow communally (in 'sin does not pay' PhD subjects) and not individually, which is why He only allows one single instance of sin's existence span in His universe and never after that.

So did God design all these things including sin's existence (pain, sorrow, hunger, loneliness and finally death)... indirectly yes but in a fair manner that leaves Him free of any accusation because prior to sin's existence He provided no reason to sin and only availed its option .

Based on all this, I wouldn't want to entertain the idea that God played around with chance, perhaps like in adventuresome tales where people in search for the unknown, test their limits and their selves, just for the thrill of it.

All that God claims and teaches to be, comes back around in a sound manner where every card upholds each other, where all would fail if there was just a single value of error.

Christ's human trial of pain and death was purely protocol (fulfilling all requirements for legal formality) with absolutely nothing left to chance because not only was sin's existence already well anticipated far before the existence of the first created intelligence but also upon the claims upon Himself, which is fully intertwined in all His word.

Does this show God's less love for us because He would not budge from His safety zone of Divinity? Just because Christ's human body felt pain and hunger does not mean there were chances of Him failing in His task. Let's not test God by challenging Him to leave His throne and become a game of chance like His inferior and powerless sinful creations (in comparison to Him). That would be sin, right?

[Gustave]

Christ was tempted in our infirmities...

...Exactly as the text which teaches of this says.

Hebrews 4,15

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; BUT was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin

We can look at the word meaning(s) and establish what Scripture is saying to us...

...The meaning is clear.

Strong's / INFIRMITIES

1) want of strength, weakness, infirmity

a) of the body

1) its native weakness and frailty

2) feebleness of health or sickness

God came to "save us" in our flesh...

...Human flesh which is weak, infirm, etc.

...Subject to sickness, pain, hunger, thirst & death.

If a person looks up the word tempted as used in Hebrews 4,15...

...They are informed that the meaning is also clear.

Satan "solicited Christ to sin", He "offered temptations"...

..."To see if a thing could be done".

Therefore, just as Scripture records - Jesus was tempted BY or OF the Devil...

...Jesus said this very thing was going to happen PRIOR to it taking place.

John 14,29

And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe. Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me. But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence

Jesus told His followers EXACTLY what would happen PRIOR to it taking place...

...The temptations were thrown at the "Eternal Christ".

...NOT to show that He could be tempted and fall BUT to show that He couldn't be tempted OR fall.

God "knows" exactly what it really feels like to feel our pain and suffering...

...He experienced it in an infinite way past any of us.

...That's what this means, NOT that Christ "wanted to do sexual stuff" to the hot Jewish girl next door to Him.

Have ANY of you reading this been tempted by somone else offering you something that's sin?

...All of us have!

Any of you could be offered to participate in sin that you would find repulsive, disgusting...

...YOU, while being tempted to do that thing WERE NOT TEMPTED within yourself to do it!

...Thus, it could be said that you were tempted ( of or by the person offering it ) Yet at the same time NOT tempted.

This is what took place with Christ - He was tempted or tested "OF" or "BY" the Devil...

...But the Devil had NOTHING in Him that responded to the temptation.

James 1,13

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: BUT every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, AND enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Like the text clearly says, God CANNOT be tempted with evil - it's IMPOSSIBLE...

...Sure, Satan can offer a temptation but it does not meet a yearning or lust inside of God.

The Bible says we ARE tempted when we are drawn away by what we already WANT ( lust for )...

..The word used in this place is ENTICED.

Strong's / ENTICED

1) to bait, catch by a bait

2) metaph. to beguile by blandishments, allure, entice, deceive

Ellen taught that the Eternal Christ was "enticed" and yearned for sin....

...But for our sakes He resisted the bait He wanted!

...This is absolutely heretical.

Christ told us WHAT would happen BEFORE it happened SO WE WOULD KNOW He was for real...

....This is an absolute mockery if Christ was simply a cosmic catfish.

...That could have been enticed to take the bait Satan was jigging for Christ with!

[Kevin H]

First of all, Jesus had his own unique nature, with the physical conditions of our fallen nature, but did NOT have in him a disposition to think he was for himself by making less of the outside world, which is a HUGE difference between him and us. The reason why no matter what we do we are sinners and lost and why Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. Satan had to modify his temptations to deal with that difference in his nature from ours.

Second, the question you are asking is answered in the 40 days of fasting [now remember that Biblical fasting is not the necessarly NO food, but very limited and simple, but to reach this reason Jesus probably was even more limiting than a typical Biblical fast]. Jesus inflicted upon himself an abuse, malnurishment that would lead to mental instibility. When someone has been lost at sea or the desert or other cases of not having food they are given a lot of vitimins, especially the vit. Bs. Jesus' fast deprived himself of the vitimin Bs and other nutrients so that he could be able to be in a similar physical and mental position as those who have undergone the abuses that you are describing, and then later he had to deal with the abuse from others as he was facing the cross event. and as John said, that he was tempted on the same fundamental principles. The 3 temptations are related to the 3 deceptions of Satan and focused on the 3 aspects of the trinity. It was not known if God as a creature was ablet to keep his law of self sacrificing love. So the weight of the universe was upon him.

Mrs. White said that this fast brought on Jesus a deep melonchology. In today's language it would mean major depression and all the problems assoiciated with it. When Jesus was tempted to jump off the temple pinical, it was a temptation to commit suicide, but with his nature Satan could not have him say "Good bye cruel world" as he can with our nature. Satan has to wrap it into the idea that it would bring glory to God and that he could anounce himself as the messiah at the place where the people were expecting the messiah to anounce himself, in a dramatic way that would force people to have to follow him. Jesus preferred to be unassuming and allow people to look at the evidence and make up their own minds.

Also, remember, Jesus saw abuse from his perfect character and infinite nature and felt even more it's pain than our imperfection and finite ablility is able to, so he feels the pain of the abused child much more than the abused child does.

[Gustave]

Do you believe Christ could have lost his salvation and been erased by the Father had he sinned?

[BobRyan]

I believe that Bible when it says Christ was tempted as we are and that the Devil tempted Christ.

You keep adding "Oh no that did not happen" when you run across things you don't like in scripture.

Why keep doing that?

[BobRyan]

I believe that Bible when it says Christ was tempted as we are and that the Devil tempted Christ.

You keep adding "Oh no that did not happen" when you run across things you don't like in scripture.

Why keep doing that?

[BobRyan]

Christ was tempted in our infirmities...

...Exactly as the text which teaches of this says.

Hebrews 4,15

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; BUT was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin

I did not find "Tempted IN OUR infirmities" rather what we find is that he CAN be "touched with the FEELING of our infirmities" even now in heaven - he can be touched -- sympathize with -- our infirmities -- BECAUSE back when he was on earth He was "tempted like we ARE - yet without sin".

Real temptation!

Real threat - real problem... not a candy problem - a real one that he overcame.

One that sinless Adam did NOT overcome.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gustave]

I did not find "Tempted IN OUR infirmities" rather what we find is that he CAN be "touched with the FEELING of our infirmities" even now in heaven - he can be touched -- sympathize with -- our infirmities -- BECAUSE back when he was on earth He was "tempted like we ARE - yet without sin".

Real temptation!

Real threat - real problem... not a candy problem - a real one that he overcame.

One that sinless Adam did NOT overcome.

When the word "BUT" comes directly after infirmities, what does basic english tell you that means?

...Do you know of any other cases where that word would actually change the meaning of the subject?

...This should be interesting.

[John317]

Do you believe Christ could have lost his salvation and been erased by the Father had he sinned?

1) Jesus of Nazareth was a free moral agent.

2) The temptations by Satan were very real temptations. In order to be real, there has to be a possibility of falling. Otherwise it is a make-believe temptation.

3) Adam's temptations were real and he obviously had a possibility of falling. Therefore the temptations mean that Jesus of Nazareth also could have fallen.

4) Had Jesus sinned, He wouldn't have been resurrected but would have been eternally lost just like all humanity.

5) Since God was not tempted by sin, but the man Jesus of Nazareth was, God would not have ceased to exist if Jesus had sinned. We frankly don't know all the details of what would have happened if Christ had fallen, but we do know that God risked all heaven for the sake of saving our lost and dying world.

[John317]

I did not find "Tempted IN OUR infirmities" rather what we find is that he CAN be "touched with the FEELING of our infirmities" even now in heaven - he can be touched -- sympathize with -- our infirmities -- BECAUSE back when he was on earth He was "tempted like we ARE - yet without sin".

Real temptation!

Originally Posted By: Gustave

When the word "BUT" comes directly after infirmities, what does basic english tell you that means?

...Do you know of any other cases where that word would actually change the meaning of the subject?

...This should be interesting.

In the case of the word "but" in Heb. 4:15, it could be translated as follows:

Quote:

Because we have a high priest who most definitely can be touched with the feelings of our common weaknesses. Indeed, He was truly tempted in every respect as we are, yet He never committed sin.

Hebrews 2:17-18

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. [18] For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Hebrews 4:14-15

Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. [15] For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

ESV--Hebrews 4:15

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

[John317]

...Also, remember, Jesus saw abuse from his perfect character and infinite nature and felt even more it's pain than our imperfection and finite ablility is able to, so he feels the pain of the abused child much more than the abused child does.

Wonderful, very important point, Kevin.

[Raphael]

All possibilities are always real, where further, all things become possibilities. Problem is, in the matter with Christ is that all this rhetoric scenario possibilities will and never come true, not because of chance but because of certainty.

This is becoming a merry-go-round...hahha..

Indeed, there should be real possibilities or chances of failing else it would a hoax... funny thing, these possibilities or chances will & never come true because of God's certain nature... but back again there should be real risks, with chances of real danger... but back again becomes impossible because God character will never allow it to happen...

This is similar to God playing foul, if one would call it that way (because this playing of both fields really gives off a convincing con-trick-hoax-cheating impression, for those in search), by playing simultaneous roles of God, Savior, Judge, sacrificial Lamb, immortal, mortal, priest, sinner, Life-giver, Death-giver, blesser, curser, eternal life, eternal death.. oh so many more... Isn't the pattern here evident enough...? There is one thing I am certain though that He won't play the double roles of true winner and true loser or true gambler and true certainty.

I'm trying to look for a seesaw smiley but can't find one... sorry... I believe its more than adequately clear for any to understand.

I'd like to add a bit on my previous post (#476750). It seems that our created trillions of years old intelligent universe is simply at its teenage phase and is about to graduate into a licence driving age, with still mind boggling untold googleplex years to come. Wouldn't this be motivating enough for people to strive wholeheartedly instead of simply being contently happy with a lousy piece of this 'half-breath' of a life...?

[John317]

...I'm not sure how they do Sacred Scripture study in Adventist denominations John317...

...I would guess they don't look at actual Hebrew and Greek word meanings.

...Instead leaving all interpretation up to Ellen White.

Are you serious?

If you are, it only proves that you haven't read SDA books on the study of Scripture.

What was the last book published by the SDA church on the study of the Bible that you actually studied?

My suggestion would be for you to read "Handbook of SDA Theology," vol. 12 of the SDA Bible Commentary.

[John317]

1) Jesus of Nazareth was a free moral agent.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Heretical affirmation and absolute confirmation of Arianism.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

2) The temptations by Satan were very real temptations. In order to be real, there has to be a possibility of falling. Otherwise it is a make-believe temptation.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Again, another heretical affirmation - it's no different than saying....

...If "God" couldn't have lost the war in heaven when Lucifer rebelled.

...Than the war in heaven was a "make believe" war & mockery.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

3) Adam's temptations were real and he obviously had a possibility of falling. Therefore the temptations mean that Jesus of Nazareth also could have fallen.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Adam wasn't the "God-Man" / Adam wasn't God...

...Of course all denominations who promulgate a creature christ say the same thing you just did John.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

4) Had Jesus sinned, He wouldn't have been resurrected but would have been eternally lost just like all humanity.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Ellen White certainly said that John317...

...Exactly as she said Christ's Deity could NOT be separated from His humanity.

...Had Christ sinned His Deity would have went back to God and whatever it was that existed as Christ prior to Incarnation.

...Would have CEASED to exist ETERNALLY.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

5) Since God was not tempted by sin, but the man Jesus of Nazareth was, God would not have ceased to exist if Jesus had sinned. We frankly don't know all the details of what would have happened if Christ had fallen, but we do know that God risked all heaven for the sake of saving our lost and dying world.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

But you do know John - Ellen White has told you what would have happened...

...She was specific about what would have happened.

...And I have documented this reality for you in the Creed thread.

Originally Posted By: KevinH

...Also, remember, Jesus saw abuse from his perfect character and infinite nature and felt even more it's pain than our imperfection and finite ablility is able to, so he feels the pain of the abused child much more than the abused child does

Originally Posted By: Gustave

I would agree with that Kevin H, it's ALL very true....

...Nothing in what you said even implys that "God" could fail however.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

In the case of the word "but" in Heb. 4:15, it could be translated as follows:

Originally Posted By: Gustave

That translation you offered does not change the meaning at all...

..."indeed" is synonymous with "but" in that translation.

KJV

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin

Douay-Rheims

For we have not a high priest, who can not have compassion on our infirmities: but one tempted in all things like as we are, without sin

Message

We don't have a priest who is out of touch with our reality. He's been through weakness and testing, experienced it all—all but the sin

Young's Literal

for we have not a chief priest unable to sympathise with our infirmities, but [one] tempted in all things in like manner -- apart from sin

Holman

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tested in every way as we are, yet without sin

RSV

For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin

NABCE http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/__P11J.HTM

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has similarly been tested in every way, yet without sin.

The Key word here John is Infirmities or "weakness"....

...One simply needs to turn to a Strong's to render the meaning.

...And use just a little logic.

Infirmities ( weakness ) = G769 "astheneia"...

...It means "the want of strength OF the body".

..."It's native weakness and frailness".

..."Feebleness of heath OR sickness"

I'm not sure how they do Sacred Scripture study in Adventist denominations John317...

...I would guess they don't look at actual Hebrew and Greek word meanings.

...Instead leaving all interpretation up to Ellen White.

The meaning of "infirmities" as found in the Greek 100% precludes the meaning you are so desparate to force the text into - this stands as proof Ellen White intreprets the meaning of Sacred Scripture to SDA's.

Imagine the meaning YOU have buggered into Hebrews 14 in the following Scriptures....

...And ponder them for a minute and get back to me with what you think of them.

2 Cor 11,30

If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.

2 Cor 12,5

Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities

He takes GLORY in his desire and lust to comit sin?????

...Does that sound right to you!

2 Cor 12,10

Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

1 Tim 5,23

Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

My-word that becomes an odd teaching when one applies the Adventist rubric to it John317...

...If Infirmities includes ones yearning for sin it would seem wine would be the last thing to use.

...ON THE OTHER HAND if Infirmities means what I've been telling you - it makes perfect sense.

I sit here shaking my head wondering how in the world you continue to attempt to defend...

...A creature christ of Ellen White's fabrication.

...After you've been presented something like 50 Scriptures quotes that say Ellen's teaching is impossible.

[John317]

1) Jesus of Nazareth was a free moral agent.

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Heretical affirmation and absolute confirmation of Arianism.

Do you really believe that Jesus of Nazareth was not a free moral agent? He was not free to choose to serve God?

Where is the heresy in believing that Jesus was free to choose? I'm not asking about heresy according to the creeds but heresy in accordacance with the teachings of Holy Scripture.

[John317]

I sit here shaking my head wondering how in the world you continue to attempt to defend...

...A creature christ of Ellen White's fabrication.

...After you've been presented something like 50 Scriptures quotes that say Ellen's teaching is impossible.

I keep wondering why you think Ellen White taught that the eternal Son of God,-- who she said was self-existent, infinite and omnipotent, "God in the highest sense," and "with the Father from all eternity,"-- was a creature.

You seem to be confusing Jesus of Nazareth, who had a beginning, with the pre-incarnate Christ, who had NO beginning.

[Gustave]

Do you really believe that Jesus of Nazareth was not a free moral agent? He was not free to choose to serve God?

[Raphael]

Actually, there is a reason for seeming mistakes by divinely inspired writers, not only of EGW but of authors of the Bible as well.

Which I planned to do in an entirely new thread.

Anyway, these all goes back to God's character upon His most extreme of knowledgeable patience...

The question... Why is it that everything takes deliberate time to evolve, from human physical, emotional, mental, career, business until all in the universe of a falling leaf, drop of rain, and budding flower... including the growth of the light of God's Truth upon His people?

There could be a long list of answers but let's stick to logical explanations, particularly in relation to our ups & downs in this world.

[Robert]

...Scripture is EXPLICIT that God does not sin OR fail.

Correct, but by becoming what He was not by Divine right (i.e., human) He could fail. He was the last Adam.

[Gustave]

Correct, but by becoming what He was not by Divine right (i.e., human) He could fail. He was the last Adam.

By becoming man God did not cease being God Robert...

...Herein lies the root ( and problem ) of the Adventist rubric.

[John317]

By becoming man God did not cease being God Robert...

...Herein lies the root ( and problem ) of the Adventist rubric.

Ellen White herself says that when Christ became man, He did not cease to be God.

But you apparently fail to understand what is being said.

Jesus was tempted by sin and the Devil.

Was God tempted by sin and the Devil?

Did God get tired?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Do you really believe that Jesus of Nazareth was not a free moral agent? He was not free to choose to serve God?

IF He was a free moral agent He wouldn't have been God John...

...It's as simple as that.

...According to Scripture.

Is God not free to choose?

Remember Christ was (and is) both fully God and fully man.

As a man, was Christ not free to choose?

[Raphael]

I just stumbled into a new angle of of illustration.

Now, we know Christ as fully 100% and not less, to be God and also human. Let's say, using the 'if' popular stories, that we could pit these two natures of Christ into each other, which would you think would come out superior in all things, past, present and future?

Now, we know and believe God to have a unified nature, that's why we can truly and safely depend on Him, where He doesn't have anything conflicting inside Him.

Let's see... putting on the garment of humanity together with all its pain, suffering, mortality and death, is very alright with God's divine nature to do because it was He who created all things but to combine it with FAILURE or its most remote possibility, what more of TRUE JEOPARDY would be in direct conflicting opposition with His superior nature as an almighty everlastingly never failing God.

If it was just playing theatrical (cos it's for public view & scrutiny) roles as hungering, thirsting, could-feel pain and could-die mortal human.. it becomes an auw snapping finger thing to do. But to play a role that could really dethrone Him of His God entitlements or further endanger Him (and again) with His God entitlements, could that (most remotely) possibly happen?

We learned that there are things that God could never or will never do, such as sin. For God's Biblical nature, committing FAILURE is a genuine-authentic-legitimate sin. Perhaps one doesn't have to go to further hazardous scenarios, because that would be considered suicidal, either in slow Hollywood motion or lightning live breaking news speed.

Note: haha, just thought of how interesting it would be to start a new thread with this question of "COULD GOD PLAY A ROLE THAT COULD TRULY BRING ABOUT HIS OWN FAILURE OR TRUE JEOPARDY?"