Reprograming the mind

[teresaq]

I very much appreciated the different perspectives presented, very much.

This post has two thoughts I would like to address.

You brought up minimizing the harm done and I think that is far too often done, by well-meaning folk, as well as those who harm habitually. As an aside, it makes it quite difficult for the person harmed to get a clear perspective and then be able to deal with what has happened. I fully agree that true forgiveness sees the act just for what it is, no whitewashing nor making excuses for it.

Re your last thoughts, Tom, I personally rarely ask someone to forgive me when I confess a wrong I've done to them. Too many times I've seen that morphed into a manipulation tactic. If I am truly sorry for the wrong I did I state that and leave it up to them, their choice, as to whether they will forgive me or not.

cardw's point about forgiveness does not mean allowing harmful acts to continue I thought was quite appropriate also. (If I got your thought cardw.)

To truly forgive can be such a struggle. With Opportunistic there was a time I wanted to hurt her as badly as I could. Until it finally dawned on me that no matter how badly, or often, I hurt her I would never be satisfied. I then progressed to wanting to put a bullet in her head. No torture, just quickly stop her from hurting any more people, since she tended to be such a tornado in several people's lives, not just my and my children's. I have progressed past that point also.

At various times I truly want her salvation, but I am still so far from the utter forgiveness of the Lord for us.

[teresaq]

Yes, cardw. I do agree with you up to a point (last 2 paragraphs) but I also believe some people learn from that "god" to be like Him and eventually grow up - not out of the church. :)

[phkrause]

Absolutely agree teresaq

[cardw]

I think it is helpful to express even the darkest things we feel. We certainly don't act on them, but the truth is they are there for a reason. And that reason is not that we are evil.

Teresa expressed that she initially wanted to hurt her abuser as much as she could. I think all of us want our abuser to feel what it feels like to receive that type of pain. That is a perfectly rational response. It too, is based on empathy. If my abuser could feel what I feel then they wouldn't do it anymore.

If our abuser is unable to hear us it is quite natural to want to demonstrate what it feels like by inflicting it. I know that I learned empathy by experiencing suffering.

I think the need for our abuser to understand stops a lot of people from moving forward. Abusers aren't generally willing to go there.

One of the beliefs that stops people from working through these things in their imagination, is the teaching that by thinking we are sinning. One of the ways that I give up the need to punish is to take those angry emotions and play it out in my own mind to see how it would feel.

When I see myself in my mind behaving in the same way as my abuser it becomes apparent that it won't work. I need to look for a solution else where. The power of doing that is that one not only understands that it won't work, but you FEEL that it won't work. That is the crucial shift. You will never understand that if you get caught in trying to be a "good" person.

It is far more powerful to be an honest person. And that means being rigorously honest about how you feel.

Love in action is done by hearing and seeing a person. And that means hearing their darkest feelings without judging them or giving advice. When you learn that everyone already knows what they need to do you simply help people find that which is already in them. You don't have to fix people. That is the point of love.

Now, obviously, if someone decides to act on these in a harmful way you need to speak up. But, feeling and imagining is a way to work through many of these unanswerable dilemmas. In fact it may be the only way.

And, too often, well meaning Christians believe that they have to fix people instead of love them. Or worse they believe that if only they could understand all 28 fundamental beliefs all would be well. They simply have no idea because they haven't experienced that degree of suffering or they haven't faced their own suffering in an honest way.

[cardw]

I have learned to never put a concept or an organization above an individual. Both of those exist to serve individuals not the other way around.

When we use the word god as an ideal it entirely depends on one's concept of god. If that concept is limited by the descriptions in the Bible you are going to bang against that limit pretty quickly.

If that concept of god is limited by your own ability to think then you are going to end up going in a circle.

I don't advocate leaving a church when the community is providing love and healthy connection no matter what doctrines or beliefs they hold. Most churches claim they believe everything the bible says, but when it comes to application they generally find a way to work around the more abusive ideas that come from the Bible. There is always an element that wants people to go back the the "pure" church and they think that literally following what the Bible says will bring people to that point. It is a very immature and shows a lack of informed experience. When these people gain control some form of violence usually emerges to keep people in line because people naturally rebel from this type of abusive control.

The point is that you don't need god to learn the concepts of forgiveness and empathy. This is entirely within the capability of every conscious person.

[Tom Wetmore]

The paradox of a changeless God changing his mind... This is beyond the scope of this topic and has been touched on in the open theology topic elsewhere.

But in this context...

He decrees the wages of sin is death and changes death to life through forgiveness. There are several instances of God changing his mind in this way. The story of Nineveh. When they repented, he forgave them and changed his mind in what he had declared he would do to them. And he did this repeatedly for the children of Israel.

I do believe that the most overwhelming change though is in the divine memory department. We declare God as knowing the end from the beginning that he is all-knowing. Yet he declares us innocent in his eyes when he forgives us. He has to be able to change how he sees us. Our past does not change, but his memory of it does.

I don't presume to understand how this works because his ways and mine are not the same. He is God, I am not.

But I had a brief glimpse of that divine gift of memory being erased in the face of forgiveness in an experience with my own wife. We were have some sort of argument. I was upset and angry. She was upset. I was fuming and stewing to myself and reloading for the next round. I had a list of retorts all ready for a verbal coup de grace. I was going to win this fight. Then she messed with my head. She came up to me, put her arms around me and said she was sorry. All I remember of the incident is that she said she was sorry. We both apologized and forgave each other and instantly I couldn't remember a thing I was going to say or even what we had been fighting about. Gone. Memory wipe. It changed me instantly. I was taken aback because my memory absolutely does not work that way. To this day all I remember is that forgiveness enabled me to not remember anything bad about that whole day. All I remember is the good part.

I think God experiences forgiveness just like that.

I just wish it worked like that for me every time because I still have a lot of memories that need to be deleted. As I have said before, that change in a blink of an eye at the second coming I believe will be something like that. Forgiveness completed.

[phkrause]

[Tom Wetmore]

Another thought occurred to me on the change forgiveness makes to God. I think it also changes his view of the future. Whether you subscribe to the belief that God sees the future perfectly in an ultimate predestination sense, or go more the open theology route, it comes out the same IMHO. Without forgiveness the future is dark and does not end well. Forgiveness changes the future. God understands that perfectly well.

[Overaged]

This is actually well said cardw; especially that business of thinking we have to "fix" people...90% of the time we 'fix" something that isn't broken...

[teresaq]

Yes. Honesty. Being Honest with oneself and with others. The more honest we are about ourselves with others the more freedom it gives them to learn and practice honesty.

And for some others more weapons to use against one. :)

[cardw]

If I am honest with myself and I don't need anyone's approval and I have forgiven myself it doesn't matter what I reveal, there is no target.

In business it is said that you can't cheat an honest man or in your case woman. The pyramid scheme con relies totally on greed. If you notice that most internet schemes from a Nigerian minister or government official etc rely on greed to get the mark to help out the transfer of money.

The same way with emotional blackmail. Once you have no secrets, there's no leverage.

[cardw]

Tom,

I can relate to your story with your wife. It pretty much takes the wind out of my sails. And you're right, my mind goes blank. It just doesn't seem all that important.

As far as applying this to god I think it is more along the lines of anthropomorphizing god.

I think we can step back even further ask if god was offended in the first place. Maybe he doesn't need to forgive at all. It really wouldn't make sense for a being who knows the end from the beginning to hold a grudge or to even be hurt.

What if this right, wrong, good, bad, evil, pure view of the world is simply stuff we are making up because we need it to be all neat and clean. Because we don't seem to be able to live with the unknown.

When I look at nature nothing is perfectly symmetrical and yet there is great beauty. If you have ever played around with programs that take one side of your face and flip it so that you are perfectly symmetrical you notice that it looks pretty weird. It is actually unattractive.

We immediately know when mankind has built a structure. It tends to simplify the architecture in ways that are immediately obvious. Probably the most organic and beautifully structure that I have seen created would be Sagrada Família in Barcelona with construction beginning in 1852.

I leave with a few images of its complexity and beauty.

[Gail]

What is the reason we can't experience that more until love becomes a living principle and it's automatic? I think that some married couples achieve that.

[Overaged]

LOL; you lost your list eh? That's a great testimony Tom! Thanks for posting it. Sounds like you have a real sweet-heart of a wife!

[Tom Wetmore]

I have learned a lot about forgiveness from her fine example. I give her much opportunity for practice...

[Overaged]

Same here, with my wife!

[Overaged]

I would call it bondage - not freedom when someone uses another's honesty as a springboard to "attack" you; unless ofcourse the person being honest has a persecution complex, because they were "honest."

[teresaq]

"Attack" is what came to mind for you?

[cardw]

I think it is possible to come to a place where love is automatic. There is no reason why that can't happen.

I think the key is understanding the nature of fear. If you are afraid it is almost impossible to love.

In my relationship with my wife it is not us as a couple that have found this place, it is each of us finding it for ourselves and we happen to be married.

Part of that success is not expecting the other person to meet all my needs.

If a person really wants to find happiness in this life one has to take personal responsibility for their choices and seek out that which they love.

[Overaged]

No; the word attack didn't come to mind for me; it's just what i read in your post, and I was responding to that.

[teresaq]

But I didn't use "attack" nor was I thinking it, that's why it surprised me. I was wondering where it came from...

Anyway, back to topic. :)

[Overaged]

Guess you better tell us what you were really thinking then; eh?

[Overaged]

Tom; you talked here of the paradox of a changeless God" changing His mind"...

I see what you are saying; I think, but when I read of God "changing His mind;" I do not envision He Himself as changing; and I think that the Bible's intentions when it talks about God "not changing," well; it does not denote His personality or character as changing in any way.

When we say God changes His mind in response to prayer; would it actually follow that He Himself is/has changed; or does it tell us of the choices we make; and His corresponding responses to same?

To me; God has to be "unchangeable" for me to believe that he would grant grace to a dude like me. We all know how much grace I need some days...Doesn't our need depend upon His unchanging grace & love? How can reconciliation happen between us & God if He changes and we cannot trust from one minute to the next which way He will decide?

I actually like your concepts here of reconciliation here in this thread. It is challenging, thought-provoking; but also promising.

[Tom Wetmore]

While some might see the difference between the God of the OT and the God of the NT as the result of a changed human view of God, another perspective could be that God indeed did change from one willing to destroy as he did at the flood to one willing to do anything to save as he did at the cross. Those starkly different pictures of God have perplexed thoughtful minds for centuries.

While I agree with you that a steady as a rock God is a certainty to depend on, A God willing to modify his approach to dealing with us humans is also reassuring that he is not a rock that will crush me if I get in his way.

I have often said that God loves a paradox. Perhaps it is because he is one.

[Overaged]

Good food for thought...I know that the Bible has a number of paradoxes in it; I will have to mull this over for a day or three to decide how it applies to God changing...