Reprograming the mind

[cardw]

Well if god really knows the end from the beginning I'm not sure what meaning changing his mind would have.

Sometimes things are paradoxical because they simply don't make sense. I know Scott Peck argues this idea that things that are true, present paradoxes, but he argues it from a point that reduced concepts are non paradoxical and reality presents paradoxes.

Since we have no reference for god in reality it makes it hard to present a real paradox. And most paradoxes that we encounter in reality are resolved once we have more information. Then the complexity of most real systems present another paradox.

Now if we look at the methods that god used in the Old Testament as his best first choice I think we have to question the intelligence of god since advanced ethical belief systems were already present on the earth.

I think it is far more likely that the Old and the New Testament were very man made documents and have little to do with any actual god.

[Overaged]

You are right cardw, some "paradoxes" just don't make sense; we are left with a number of questions, rather than answers. Personally; I do not worry about what I don't understand; neither do I use what i don't understand to question God's intelligence. He has shown me plenty of evidence that He knows a lot better than I do.

[Overaged]

Tom; I have been thinking about this topic quite a bit for some reason - it is an area of great interest to me. I have felt lately that it is an area where I am lacking at times.

Do you think it's possible that when God seems like He has two different pictures of Himself in Old and New Testament; that He actually changes His mind/character?

When I think of God not "changing" this is the context I picture it in; and when God seems to do an about face; I see it as Him adapting His unchanging principles to our changing needs. I don't see God's basic makeup or principles as changing - and this is why I pictured Him above as a "steady as a rock" type of God.

This ministry of reconciliation which we have talked about a bit in this topic seems directly related to God and His ways in both the Old and New Testaments. And that gives me great hope because it makes it seem like there really is hope - even for people in the Old Testament. Even for people like me today.

[teresaq]

Recently a series of things were done to me that can be neither sugarcoated nor whitewashed. They were just plain mean and hateful. I'm finding that I'm having a hard time forgiving.

I don't particularly want to get even (be vindictive), my battle has more to do with having anything more to do with those who would do such things.

Having compassion or pity...

Yet Jesus looked down on those reviling Him and had nothing but pity and compassion for them seeing what they would suffer in the future and the judgment.

Its so easy to read that, know that cerebraly, so much harder to arrive.

[Overaged]

Yes; that arriving stuff gets complicated.

I am tending now to see God as someone who accepts our good intentions in this regard; even when we don't "arrive." He knows what we each face.

[teresaq]

Works every time! I don't know why, but I can struggle and struggle with something, even pray sometimes, but when I confess (admit) it out loud I get the victory.

Bringing it to the light I guess.

I confessed last night during prayer meeting too, giving all the morbid details, and how I felt. There is the usual praise and prayer requests but I usually do my "confessing" during that time also. And walked away free.

Another gentleman gave his story of how hard it was for him to forgive the ex-husband of his niece, who had stabbed her to death. He said he had arrived at the point where the young man could walk into the building and not fear for his life, yet...

[fccool]

I think I agree with Richard in terms of objective morality. If there is a God, then the ideas of Good and Evil would exist independent of that God. He can't be creator of morality, because morality is an independent concept that such God would have to live by.

Yet, in terms of morality that we have today, the notions of good and evil are very blurry. Just to give you a great personal life example. I was groomed up to be a professional basketball player in Ukraine. My father was a manager of the pro basketball team, and he had an ongoing conflict with the coach of the team, which then lead that coach to some hostility towards me. I was a decent basketball player, but he would eject me from any possibilities of getting a spot on the team, even though I was the best candidate.

From one perspective it's "evil", but I'll keep going.

If he did get me a spot on the team, I would be living in Ukraine with minimal education and who knows what I'd be doing. But because he did not, I pursued other outlets and eventually end up playing basketball in American University, receiving great education and opportunities that carry me through to this day.

On the surface, that guy done a great deal of "evil". He denied me a certain privilege because he had a grudge going on with my father. But in the global sense, he done me immense good and a favor that I should be thanking him for the rest of my life.

Likewise, people who think they do "good", perhaps don't understand how that "good" can end up causing harm to person. These are just small examples, but in global sense we can't be the judge of "evil and good". In light of certain things, we don't really know the full consequences of alternatives.

On top of that, our understanding of "evil" is rather comparative. We comparing "evil" to the opposing understanding of "good" and then make certain judgement. Thus, evil and good is a personal comparative judgement. In terms of comparison, evil is basically a lesser "good" many times, and the other way around "good" is a better "evil". Such things arise and reflect in OT morality. I don't think any of us would consider it was "good" to wipe virtually all of the population of animals and people off the face of the earth with the flood. I think most of the people would have problems with such mentality. But in terms of pragmatic subjective morality, there's no problem. There's only a dilemma between two magnitudes of "evil", and the lesser evil becomes "good".

Likewise, what would be evil from one perspective, may be good from different one. That's why it's very difficult to have a position that holds to absolute morality. I've seen these people being quite torn at times, unable to make a decision because it goes against their absolute ideals.

[teresaq]

I don't think God is the Creator of morality. I think He is morality/ethics. That is His nature. He just is that.

And I do think "evil" and "good" are clearly defined, but not understood by fallen beings so clearly (as clearly demonstrated by certain interesting comments regarding "abuse").

In your story I think you were done wrong, period, yet it worked out for the best. I don't think that makes the wrong ok. Too many people excuse themselves that way. But yes, God is able to work it out many times in a better way. {Perhaps you were saying the same thing...)

As for people who think they are doing good, have to agree with you 100%. LOL Back in the day I was weekend relief caregiving for an elderly Jewish couple. One day the lady remarked that the road to hell was paved with those who mean well.

I thought that was absolutely ridiculous! But, like the truth has a habit of doing, it stuck in my mind and sure enough I had reason to see the veracity of that statement when Ms. Opportunistic operated in my life, of course all the time meaning "well", or so she, and others like her, excuses herself.

I think it is more accurate to say the lesser of two evils. Again that may have been what you meant.

[phkrause]

You know what that makes me think of fccool? That statement in the Bible about all things working together for good. Something like that, not sure that's the exact passage. Anyway if we look back on things that happen to us we can either be bitter or we can see it as something good. It seems to me that you've done the latter. I personally think that God and morality are intertwined, if I may use that word, for lack of a better one. It's his character and that would translate to his Commandments, which is his moral code for his creation.

[Overaged]

That passage is Romans 8:28

[phkrause]

Thanks OA, I was just to lazy to look it up myself.

[Overaged]

We all have a bit of that "L" stuff in us from time to time.

To cure you of that problem, I will have to make the sacrifice and allow you to shovel my snow if you ever come to visit me in the winter time.

[phkrause]

LOL, I can definitely promise you that I will shovel snow for you anytime, since more than likely I will never be up in Canada anytime soon. :)

[Overaged]

LOL; I figured. But I guess you realize it's the thought that counts, eh?

[phkrause]

[teresaq]

Getting us back on track maybe...

Dealing with Conflict

[rawprawn]

I figure you have probably all hear the saying "Forgive and forget". It is not a reasonable saying simply we cannot make ourselves forget, we never forget (well, I'm not there yet but my Mum is getting there. lol). Forgivness is taking back control and power from the person who stole it from us. It is, as has been said, letting go. Buy doing that we empower ourselves because the offender no longer has control over us. While we remain angry and revengeful, they are in control.

However, forgetting is not possible, or reasonable. If we forget we may well fall into the same trap again. Time heals and we do forget to some degree. But letting go is an awesome power to have.

[phkrause]

I don't believe its unreasonable at all, because in the Bible it tells us with God all things are possible. So if we are trying without the HS than yeah it is unreasonable. Now, is it hard to forget? Probably! I'll tell a little story, many years ago when my wife and I first got married, she would always bring up some stupid thing I had done, and I would say to her "don't you know how to forgive and forget?" The reason I'd say that to her was because I could or was able with the Lord's help to do just that. But of course you never fulling forget something, but as time goes by and you don't dwell on it you do eventually forget or put it way back in the recesses of your mind. I believe one of the reason's we go to heaven with Christ for 1000 years, is not only to go over the books of those family members that are not there, is because time eventually helps to forget. Just a few thoughts I've had over the years on that statement of forgiving and forgetting.

[teresaq]

Yes, I agree that in forgetting we may fall into the same trap...then again it depends on the person.

Some people we really shouldn't make any effort to forget, could get you killed.

Other people tho, yes we should forget, but I don't think it takes "effort" with those, it just tends to happen.