Butt out...

[skyblue888]

No offence but methinks that miz3 and jasd could be Jesuits. Are we allowed to make such a suggestion? If they are not, they are worthy of the name because it would be difficult to imagine how a Jesuit could do a better job at arguing his case.

sky :)

[miz3]

No offence but methinks that miz3 and jasd could be Jesuits. Are we allowed to make such a suggestion? If they are not, they are worthy of the name because it would be difficult to imagine how a Jesuit could do a better job at arguing his case.

sky

Thank you. I am complemented that you have no answer to my posts regarding the "Sunday Issue" and that the RCC/Pope are really "johnny come latelies" as well as minor players.

The real changers of Saturday to Sunday culprits existed shortly after the flood and thus are the real "antichrists" and are the real "changers of times and Laws". Thus, what the RCC/Pope did was to join a "club" that was already formed. No big deal.

Will you now join me in educating others on this very key issue mistake in SDA Theology?

[ClubV12]

Well you can readily see where this subject required it's very own thread. :)

[John317]

The real changers of Saturday to Sunday culprits existed shortly after the flood and thus are the real "antichrists" and are the real "changers of times and Laws". Thus, what the RCC/Pope did was to join a "club" that was already formed. No big deal.

You don't understand SDA theology if you believe what you say here.

The antichrist/little horn power/ man of sin/sea-beast is the power which brought Sunday worship into the Christian Church.

There weren't any "antichrists" before the time of Christ. Jesus Christ had to come to this earth first.

[jasd]

>>You've quoted the following verses as your evidence that no one today knows when the Sabbath is:<<

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Hosea 2:11-- I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Hosea was prophet to the Northern Kingdom

Lam 2:6 ...the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

Jeremiah was prophet to the Southern Kingdom.

Between the two prophets – Gd served notice upon the entirety of the COI that their Sabbaths (Seventh-day) were to cease and to be forgotten.

I also referenced:

“These facts are freely admitted by Jewish scholars. Rabbi

Louis Finklestein of the Jewish Theological Seminary of

America, was selected by the Kehillas (Jewish Communities)

of the World as one of the 120 top Jews who best

represented ‘a lamp of Judaism’ to the world. In a letter to

Dr. L. E. Froom, dated Feb. 20, 1939, Finklestein readily

admitted, ‘The present Jewish calendar was fixed in the

fourth century.’ Maimonides and most other Jewish

chronologers agree that the modern Jewish calendar is

based upon the ‘mean motions of the sun and moon, the true

[calendar] having been set aside.’ ” [ed.jasd]

...and commented::

What!?—the OT calendar whereby one fixes the feasts whereby, in turn, one fixes the Seventh-day Sabbaths?

...is set aside?—as in LOST!

Yet, some late-arrived .orgs subscribe to the “set aside” calendar whilst saying otherwise. Color me hornswoggled. Me logicum is went.

>>The verses that you claim show that God made the Jews be unable to remember their calander, including the identity of the Sabbath day, are actually referring to the fact that God was going to punish Israel with exile in Babylon.<<

Actually, almost the entirety of the Southern Kingdom together with the Northern Kingdom went into Assyrian Captivity. The Assyrians left but a few Jews in but a few cities in Judah – when they departed for the final time. (extemporizing: I seem to recall that the Assyrians made three invasions of the land)

It were Jews who went into the Babylonian Captivity – Israel being long gone.

>>After the exile, God's promise to them was that:

Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the Lord their God, and David their king, and they shall come in fear to the Lord and to his goodness in the latter days.{Hosea 3: 5}<<

Remember: Hosea prophesied to the Northern Kingdom of Israel – so one must expect the above text to be far-reaching into future events – for Ephraim/Israel went into the Leviticus 26 curse which was to extend to the AD 18th century.

>>Jeremiah prophecied from 627 to 587 BC.

Hosea prophesied from 790 to 729 BC.<<

Indeed. (As an aside, the last that Writ references Jeremiah’s placement was in Egypt together with the two daughters of King Zedekiah. They had just experienced the first ‘overturning’ of David’s throne, which led to the Babylonian Captivity. There were yet remaining two more ‘overturnings’ of David’s throne.

Fortunately, for the throne of David – the laws of Moses allowed that when there was no male to inherit {in this case, the throne} the daughter may inherit. The Pagans thought that they had ended the kingly line in Judah by killing all male pretenders to the throne – and allowed Jeremiah to leave with the two daughters of the King.)

>>Let's put some other, related Bible verses with those:

Hosea 3:4

For the children of Israel shall dwell many days

[...]

Amos 5:21

"I hate, I despise your feasts,

and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies."

NOTE: All these verses reveal that the Sabbaths and the feasts would be "forgotten in Zion" and "all [israel's] mirth would cease" because Israel would be taken into exile so that there wouldn't be any Jews in Zion [Jerusalem]. As it says, "All the land shall become waste."<<

Indeed. As I’ve noted above – there was but the remnant of Jews who went into the Babylonian Captivity – with the smallest remnant returning with Ezra and Nehemiah to Jerusalem – the rest preferred to remain in Babylon under Persian rule. Their enormous influence continued from Babylon to the Persian rule – and beyond.

Alexander’s accompanying historian wrote that Alexander much feared the Jews of the city Babylon. During the several epochs – Jewish influence was most heavily felt from Mesopotamia throughward to Persia – and measured in time – beyond.

(Centuries before, a great many went with the throne to the British Isles – as their inheritance was the throne and the giving of law. So, the Jacob/Israel Jews can be found today wherever the throne of David is found – per Gd’s unconditional promises.)

>>It wasn't a matter of Jews waking up one morning and not remembering what day of the week it was.<<

That could easily happen were it that only the priests knew how to formulate the OT calendar every year – and they had been as devastated as everyone else of their civilization – by slavery.

Remember: the Temple rituals did not travel with them into Captivity and the OT calendar centered upon the Temple rituals and the General Assemblies.

Even if they were able, despite no substantiating text, to remember and keep the OT calendar – by the 3rd – 4th centuries AD – their calendar was so corrupted that they had to develop another – that was also corrupt.

Admittedly – corrupt.

[jasd]

>>No offence but methinks that miz3 and jasd could be Jesuits. Are we allowed to make such a suggestion? If they are not, they are worthy of the name because it would be difficult to imagine how a Jesuit could do a better job at arguing his case.<<

Well, not to comment upon a Jesuit’s direction, but sorry – were I so educated, dedicated, savoir-faire, etc – as a Jesuit, I’d be oh so pleased. As it is, I’m just a slack-jawed redneck rustic awaayyy out here in Hinterland, USofA suckin’ on his jug and blowin’ on his harpoon.

Oh, and ruinin’ my eyesight on this site.

:-(

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

The real changers of Saturday to Sunday culprits existed shortly after the flood and thus are the real "antichrists" and are the real "changers of times and Laws". Thus, what the RCC/Pope did was to join a "club" that was already formed. No big deal.

You don't understand SDA theology if you believe what you say here.

The antichrist/little horn power/ man of sin/sea-beast is the power which brought Sunday worship into the Christian Church.

There weren't any "antichrists" before the time of Christ. Jesus Christ had to come to this earth first.

Have you not read:

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world."

Revelation 13:8.

Since Jesus Christ was slain from the "foundation of the world" then there must also be "antichrists" from this time also.

I understand SDA Theology all right. However, that does not mean that SDA Theology is correct.

[skyblue888]

Anyone who presumes to take the place of Christ in the church is antichrist. Of course antichrist existed before the papacy. Lucifer became the first antichrist.

sky

[miz3]

Anyone who presumes to take the place of Christ in the church is antichrist. Of course antichrist existed before the papacy. Lucifer became the first antichrist.

sky

Then I am correct that the RCC/Pope is NOT THE BIG KAHUNA of antichrists.

They are merely copycat minor bit players.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Anyone who presumes to take the place of Christ in the church is antichrist. Of course antichrist existed before the papacy. Lucifer became the first antichrist.

Then I am correct that the RCC/Pope is NOT THE BIG KAHUNA of antichrists.

They are merely copycat minor bit players.

Satan of course is THE antichrist, and all those whom he uses are his agents or representatives.

The RCC/Pope is the Big Kahuna because he is the power that the Bible points out in Rev. 14 and Daniel 7 and 8.

The Bible doesn't refer to any antichrists until after Christ came to this earth. Satan is the real antichrist, though, and he existed in heaven prior to coming to earth. He's always used various people for his own purposes, but until Christ established His church on earth, there were no antichrists in the sense in which John wrote of them.

[skyblue888]

But don't forget that the Vatican is the seat of Satan and we must not forget that there are many antichrists making an image to the papacy.

sky

[John317]

...antichrists.

They are merely copycat minor bit players.

Compared to Satan, yes, they are bit players if you will. They are imposters, but then so is Satan himself.

[ClubV12]

Ha Ha,,, sorry I can't help but chuckle when the old "swap the calendar" slight of hand trick is played. Man that con game is an OLD one, nobody falls for that anymore. Or, do they....? :)

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Anyone who presumes to take the place of Christ in the church is antichrist. Of course antichrist existed before the papacy. Lucifer became the first antichrist.

Then I am correct that the RCC/Pope is NOT THE BIG KAHUNA of antichrists.

They are merely copycat minor bit players.

[skyblue888]

miz3, no, no, in Old Testament times the sacredness of the Sabbath was not transfered to sunday by some apostate leader within the Jewish church. It is true that there were pagan worshipers who worshiped the sun god on sunday and that day was called sunday, the venerable day of the sun, but the Sabbath was observed by the people of God. It was never changed. It was still observed when Christ was born.

It was observed by the Early Church until the great apostasy that led to the establishment of the papal power and then in order to accomodate half-converted pagans sunday was gradually exalted until it took the place of the day God had blessed in the beginning.

This was accomplished by the papacy, the man of sin, the son of perdition, the mystery of iniquity.

sky

[miz3]

miz3, no, no, in Old Testament times the sacredness of the Sabbath was not transfered to sunday by some apostate leader within the Jewish church. It is true that there were pagan worshipers who worshiped the sun god on sunday and that day was called sunday, the venerable day of the sun, but the Sabbath was observed by the people of God. It was never changed. It was still observed when Christ was born.

It was observed by the Early Church until the great apostasy that led to the establishment of the papal power and then in order to accomodate half-converted pagans sunday was gradually exalted until it took the place of the day God had blessed in the beginning.

This was accomplished by the papacy, the man of sin, the son of perdition, the mystery of iniquity.

sky

Come on Skye. You are not stating the history correctly.

1. I never ever said there was some "apostate Jewish" person that changed the day of worship. You brought that up on your own. It was never a point of any discussion between you and I. You should be embarrassed by this unChristian tactic.

2. Adam and Eve were the Christian Church after being cast out of the Garden. If you read Genesis you find that someone or someones broke away from that Church. That is called "apostasy". Does the name Cain mean anything. That means from the Christian Church of Adam and Eve their own son, Cain, broke away and formed a Pagan Church based on the merits of the "human goodness (that what the human thought was the best gift)".

3. After the flood, (again read Genesis which you should already know), the Christian Church was Noah and his family as they came out of the ark.

Out of that Christian Church came someone or someones who "apostatized" and created the Pagan Church. This Pagan Church changed the Saturday Sabbath (seventh day of the week) to Sunday Worship (the first day of the week). The Pagan Church flourished while the Christian Church diminished. As a result God eventually called Abraham to keep the Christian Church alive. Thus during this time you have two Churches, one church is the Christian Church which keeps the Saturday Sabbath and you have the Pagan Church which keeps the Sunday Worship (the day that was changed). Between the end of the Flood and Abraham the Day of Worship was changed from Saturday Sabbath to Sunday the day of the sun. Long before the RCC/Pope were a gleam in anyone's eye.

Thus, the day was indeed changed back just after the flood because Noah and all his family the only survivors of the flood were Saturday Sabbath keepers. It was not until someone or someones just after the flood and before Abraham that CHANGED THE DAY FROM SATURDAY TO SUNDAY.

This occurred hundreds of years before the Jewish Nation. This occurred millenia before the RCC/Pope. That is the change from Saturday to Sunday worship did indeed occur back in Old Testament times.

Face it Skye you have no argument. The facts of the Bible prohibit your line of thinking. The Pagan Church was already in full swing when the RCC/Pope joined them. Thus, the RCC/Pope was only speaking for a minority or the whole world which was already under the absolute control of the Pagan Church which was formed way back to just after the flood.

Now if you want to believe the "boogy man" is the RCC/Pope then live on. As for me I will stick to the facts of history and truth.

You can look for the "danger" only from the RCC/Pope but I will continue to see the "danger" on a much larger and more sinister scale.

[skyblue888]

Come on Sky. You are not stating the history correctly.

1. I never ever said there was some "apostate Jewish" person that changed the day of worship. You brought that up on your own. It was never a point of any discussion between you and I. You should be embarrassed by this unChristian tactic.

miz, i know you never brought it up and that is why I did. That's the difference between the Old and the New. In the Old the sacredness of the Sabbath was not changed to sunday by some apostasy in the Jewish nation but in the New the sacredness of the Sabbath was transfered to sunday through apostasy in the Christian church.

sky

[jasd]

>>But don't forget that the Vatican is the seat of Satan<<

Oy!—how so? I suppose there are at least three ways one can take your statement... 1) figuratively 2) referencing Malachi Martin’s charge that Satan has been enthroned there 3) literally.

If proffered 1) figuratively: there is a singularity figuratives share – it is numinosity – slippy-slidey – and best ignored.

If per 2) Malachi Martin: he may have known whereof he spoke (but I don’t think you had Malachi Martin in mind, did you)

If 3) literal: then, it is a fact that Satan’s throne ended up in Germany by way of Pergamos – and is still there. Ehhh, wha’sup Doc?

>>and we must not forget that there are many antichrists making an image to the papacy.<<

An “image to the papacy”? Whoo-boy!—that deserves the attention of every aficionado of the arts... where?—where?—where?

One has to note your ‘commitment’ re the RCCs – but, easy does it good fellow – fever of the brain is catching

Anyway, don’t lose sight of:

1 Cor 6:10 ...nor revilers, ... shall inherit the kingdom of God.

I mean, enthusiasm is great, but...

[jasd]

>>Ha Ha,,, sorry I can't help but chuckle when the old "swap the calendar"<<

Chuck E. Chuckle!—is that you!? How ya been? Good to see you swinging by with a bit of that fabulous Chuck E’s chuckle.

Sorry, it was just sittin’ there – and one good turn deserves another, yes?

But seriously Chuck E – nuthin’ funny about the history of the OT calendar. Ignorance of its corruption is tragic.

>>slight of hand trick is played.<<

No sleight of hand needed. It was/is historical fact – easily apprehended by one who will study both history and Writ.

>>Man that con game is an OLD one, nobody falls for that anymore.<<

Only those who have eyes to see and ears to hear... that they might perceive.

>>Or, do they....? <<

feather budgies, yes?

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:skyblue888

But don't forget that the Vatican is the seat of Satan.

Quote:jasd

If 3) literal: then, it is a fact that Satan’s throne ended up in Germany by way of Pergamos – and is still there. Ehhh, wha’sup Doc?

So, it may be that the King of the North signifies Germany, eh?—I mean, Saturn (as some believe) aside, the literal seat now situated in Germany would tend to argue for that fact, yes?

Umm, can we say?—“Holy Roman Empire” – for it was German. Oy!—was, is not, and yet rising – once more...

However, let’s not forget Russia – represented by a beast that actually has the characteristic of is, was not, and rises again (hibernation ;-)

Of course, assuming Satan involves himself in Daniel 11...

[Guest]

Out of that Christian Church came someone or someones who "apostatized" and created the Pagan Church. This Pagan Church changed the Saturday Sabbath (seventh day of the week) to Sunday Worship (the first day of the week). The Pagan Church flourished while the Christian Church diminished.

You seem to be making it up as you go miz. None of what you just said has ever happened. Paganism did NOT come out of Christianity, nor did pagans ever try to change the Sabbath. Why/how would they try to change something that they had absolutely nothing to do with. They never observed the 7th day Sabbath in the first place. Pagans were brought into the so called "christian" church back in the time of Constantine like sky explained above, not the other way around.

Study history much?

[John317]

Satan then is the "Big Kahuna". All the others are then "little Kahunas" while the RCC/Pope is mere copycat minor player.

Satan used humans against God's Church after Adam was kicked out of the Garden. This was long, long before the RCC/Pope were even a gleam in anyone's eye.

Satan is the real antichrist, and all others are used by him as his agents.

However, the papal system is the one pointed out in Scripture as the little horn power, the man of sin, and the sea-beast of Rev. 13. The fact that Satan is the real antichrist doesn't change this. The pope is a copycat of Satan but in terms of history and the impact he has had on the Christain church, he is a big player. That is why Daniel could not get his eyes off the little horn power of Daniel 7 and 8.

[Lysimachus]

I think that my argument is more persuasive as – St John would have elected to use nomos rather than entole for ‘commandments’ in Revelation 14:12 – should he have wished to reference the Decalogue. Peculiarly St John.

(I am extemporizing here – disabuse me should I have misspoken)

Christ used the word entole in reference to the Decalogue in Matthew 19:16-21, Mark 10:17-22, and Luke 18:18-23. So this argument is mute.

[Lysimachus]

Here are some good books that I recommend on this subject by William J. Sutton:

Ancient Prophecies About the Dragon, the Beast and the False Prophet

Identify the 3 creatures from Revelation. Find the links between many secret societies, and how prophecy foretold their eventual union into modern Babylon. The world is being conditioned to accept their one-world government. How will it end?

The Antichrist 666

Traces the doctrinal "wine of Babylon" from Nimrod to our day. Exposes the 2-fold attack on God's people in the last days. What is the beast of Revelation?

The Illuminati 666

Is there still today such a thing as the Illuminati? Traces the history of the Illuminati, Freemasons, their ties to the world governments and the workings of the international bankers down to the day in which we live.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

Out of that Christian Church came someone or someones who "apostatized" and created the Pagan Church. This Pagan Church changed the Saturday Sabbath (seventh day of the week) to Sunday Worship (the first day of the week). The Pagan Church flourished while the Christian Church diminished.

You seem to be making it up as you go miz. None of what you just said has ever happened. Paganism did NOT come out of Christianity, nor did pagans ever try to change the Sabbath. Why/how would they try to change something that they had absolutely nothing to do with. They never observed the 7th day Sabbath in the first place. Pagans were brought into the so called "christian" church back in the time of Constantine like sky explained above, not the other way around.

Study history much?

1. What was the First Christian Church (check your prophet Ellen if you need to)?

Answer: Able and those who were like him.

2. What happened between Able and the Flood?

Answer: Some in the Christian Church (Able and his followers) apostatized and formed the Pagan Church. Eventually they became the vast majority with only Noah and his family left as the Christian Church.

I would have thought this 'ELEMENTARY BIBLICAL HISTORY' would be known to you. Your prophet Ellen White wrote a great deal in the book Patriarchs and Prophets. Are you not acquainted with these facts.

3. What was the First Christian Church after the flood.

Answer: Noah and his family. Again, you might check your Prophet Ellen White. She says the Christian Church has always existed throughout history.

Do you know history RLH? Do you study it much?

Thus, Noah and his family were the only Church immediately after coming out of the flood. From the Christian Church after the flood came apostasy again. This time we know for sure that the apostatizers not only created the Pagan Church but also instituted the Sunday Worship (venerable day of the sun) which changed Noah's day of worship which was Saturday, the Seventh day.

Paganism has always come out of an apostatized Christian Church.

This happened millenia before the RCC/Pope were even a gleam in anyone's eye.

Do you know history RLH? Do you study it much?

This is FACT.

The Bible tells it. Ellen White tells it. Secular history tells it.

Do you know history RLH? Do you study it much?

It appears that I am not the one making it up. It seems that you are the one who wants to make up your own history to suit your erroneous theories of the RCC/Pope.

Your own Prophet Ellen White does not support your view of Old Testament history.