miz3 Posted September 29, 2011 Share Posted September 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Satan then is the "Big Kahuna". All the others are then "little Kahunas" while the RCC/Pope is mere copycat minor player. Satan used humans against God's Church after Adam was kicked out of the Garden. This was long, long before the RCC/Pope were even a gleam in anyone's eye. Satan is the real antichrist, and all others are used by him as his agents. However, the papal system is the one pointed out in Scripture as the little horn power, the man of sin, and the sea-beast of Rev. 13. The fact that Satan is the real antichrist doesn't change this. The pope is a copycat of Satan but in terms of history and the impact he has had on the Christain church, he is a big player. That is why Daniel could not get his eyes off the little horn power of Daniel 7 and 8. Not when you look at the history of human kind after the flood. The RCC/Pope is small fry. We have only your assertion that those Bible texts apply to the RCC/Pope. The Bible is not explicit about this. Others have just as good theories about those texts as you do. It is just your theory. The RCC/Pope are actually copycats of Paganism that had already existed for millenia before the RCC/Pope were even a gleam in anyone's eye. That is simply historic FACT. The RCC/Pope is a minor player and no more. Others before the RCC/Pope and much more dominant and more powerful throughout history made the "majority of the world" after the flood follow the Pagan Sabbath which is Sunday. That is why Abraham was called by God to preserve the Christian Church and be there when Jesus Christ the Savior would come. You cannot miss it, even though you can deny it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 A minor player? Not according to the history I've studied as it concerns the dark ages. Some 1,000 plus years of putting to death those who would dare oppose the RCC political/religious power. Millions of people, hardly a "minor player". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 30, 2011 Yes, the testimony of history establishes the position of the papal system as a very important one both in the church and in the world. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 30, 2011 I don't know how anyone could read these books without concluding that the papacy is the little-horn power of Daniel 7 & 8. The evidence is not only convincing but conclusive. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Indeed Sir. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 30, 2011 Howdy, olger, my good friend. :-) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 Quote: Quote:jasd I think that my argument is more persuasive as – St John would have elected to use nomos rather than entole for ‘commandments’ in Revelation 14:12 – should he have wished to reference the Decalogue. Peculiarly St John. (I am extemporizing here – disabuse me should I have misspoken) >>Christ used the word entole in reference to the Decalogue in Matthew 19:16-21, Mark 10:17-22, and Luke 18:18-23. So this argument is mute.<< Coupla things: 1) I believe we were referencing St John, not Jesus Christ; and 2) I mentioned that it was “Peculiarly St John”. Check it out and disabuse me should I err. Thanks, for the book recommendations. Looks informative; unfortunately, this old geezer has enough trouble affording ceegars and jug wine... You know, "hurt not the smokes and the wine"... or was that "hurt not the oil and the wine"? Ah, well - onset dementia. [/kidding! - lest I be stricken] You'll just have to keep informing me through these threads. Appreciate that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I don't know how anyone could read these books without concluding that the papacy is the little-horn power of Daniel 7 & 8. The evidence is not only convincing but conclusive. What's so sad is that trying to get people to read them is like pulling teeth =/ They would rather have fun trying to pin you down by getting you to pull a Bible text that says "Sunday is the Mark of the Beast". lol. Sadly, most don't seem to comprehend that if the Bible was so overt about the Mark of the Beast like that, the prophecy would be instantly nullified, and prove a failure. Everyone in the world would read it as plain as day, and of course, there would never be a Devil convincing the Papacy to worship on Sunday, nor would they claim it to be their Mark. Why it would be just too obviously against the Bible! Hence, God writes these things in code, only for the wise, for the hungry, for the thirsty, for the meek at heart to understand. Not to the proud, boastful, and sinful loving individuals who scoff. While the Word of God is simple, it is not going to be simple without diligent study. And only those who hunger and thirst will study hard and diligently, and they will find their simple answers in doing so. Prophecy is like a massive jigsaw puzzle, and therefore people like Miz3 and jasd are going to have to realize that they are not going to find their answers unless they take out to read such books. But they won't! They'll continue to expect you to give them a silly verse, refusing to accept that that is not how God works. Oh well, all you can do is pray. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 I don't know how anyone could read these books without concluding that the papacy is the little-horn power of Daniel 7 & 8. The evidence is not only convincing but conclusive. Not even close. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 I don't know how anyone could read these books without concluding that the papacy is the little-horn power of Daniel 7 & 8. The evidence is not only convincing but conclusive. Not even close. By now we have been over this so often that we should let readers decide for themselves the identity of the little-horn power of Daniel 7 and 8. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 30, 2011 Yes, right. I think it's a waste of time to talk to those who have already heard the truth and have determined to reject it. We can waste hours and even days and weeks talking to them while people who've never heard it are left to themselves. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 What's so sad is that trying to get people to read them is like pulling teeth =/ They would rather have fun trying to pin you down by getting you to pull a Bible text that says "Sunday is the Mark of the Beast". lol. Sadly, most don't seem to comprehend that if the Bible was so overt about the Mark of the Beast like that, the prophecy would be instantly nullified, and prove a failure. Everyone in the world would read it as plain as day, and of course, there would never be a Devil convincing the Papacy to worship on Sunday, nor would they claim it to be their Mark. Why it would be just too obviously against the Bible! Hence, God writes these things in code, only for the wise, for the hungry, for the thirsty, for the meek at heart to understand. Not to the proud, boastful, and sinful loving individuals who scoff. While the Word of God is simple, it is not going to be simple without diligent study. And only those who hunger and thirst will study hard and diligently, and they will find their simple answers in doing so. Prophecy is like a massive jigsaw puzzle, and therefore people like Miz3 and jasd are going to have to realize that they are not going to find their answers unless they take out to read such books. But they won't! They'll continue to expect you to give them a silly verse, refusing to accept that that is not how God works. Oh well, all you can do is pray. You think that satan cannot read the code. That is laughable. Besides there is nothing that can "nullify" what God has planned. Satan knows that he and everyone else will bow the knew the to God. That is an "overt prophecy". If satan can "nullify" "overt prophecy" why doesn't he "nullify" this prophecy. Your position and erroneous theory of "nullification" is frankly so stupid as to boggle the mind---no offense was meant personally in that remark. I am just speaking to the absurdity of the concept. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 You think that satan cannot read the code. That is laughable. Besides there is nothing that can "nullify" what God has planned. Satan knows that he and everyone else will bow the knew the to God. That is an "overt prophecy". If satan can "nullify" "overt prophecy" why doesn't he "nullify" this prophecy. Your position and erroneous theory of "nullification" is frankly so stupid as to boggle the mind---no offense was meant personally in that remark. I am just speaking to the absurdity of the concept. Things I say always seem to go right over your head Miz3. We can say things to you, but you always digest them differently, and I might add, carnally. You don't digest the spiritual implications of what we say, so therefore you say foolish things revealing your lack of understanding. Satan knows the code well. Nobody said he doesn't. But Satan is going to try with every ounce of energy he has to see if just "maybe" he can oust God. And he is thinking that even if he loses, he wants to bring down as many with him as possible. And yes, there is nothing that can "nullify" what God has planned. But everything that God has planned He has written to the wise and honest. If God wrote his prophecies for the simpleton-minded troglodytes who love nothing else but themselves, then surely God's prophecies would fail. But that's not God. God's prophecies will not be nullified, and they will not fail--because they were written to the wise. That is, to those who desire to know the truth and are hungry and thirsty after righteousness. There is nothing mind-boggling about understanding that if God had said "The Beast is the Papacy", there never would have been a system called the "Papacy". Or if it mentioned "the Beast is the Catholic Church or the Whore", there never would have been such a system. They wouldn't call themselves that! What is truly mind boggling is how you refuse to not see how simple this is. It is readily apparent to anyone who wishes to discern spiritual things that God has written these things in code so that the prophecy might come to pass to a precise T. Such prophecies are confusion to the wicked, but they are understood by the righteous. God knows what He's doing when He writes His prophecies. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 >>What's so sad is that trying to get people to read them is like pulling teeth =/<< Hey!—I see yous guys tellin’ each one another how yous buys this and that book – like they’s no more money than chewin’ gum. Sheesh, lemme tell yous, theys other things aside books written to butt rest already fixed ide, idea, uh - ideationals, yeah, ideationals. Anyway, ain not William Sutton the bank robber?—what’s he gonna be telling me about this and that?—ain not a mind to be robbing banks. So there. >>They would rather have fun trying to pin you down by getting you to pull a Bible text that says "Sunday is the Mark of the Beast". lol.<< I’m not asking for that. That’s a non-starter. However, I did ask for a coupla texts to show a Natl Sunday Law construct. There was only one proffer. Methinks, the concept amongst the .Orgists is extraBiblical. >>Sadly, most don't seem to comprehend that if the Bible was so overt about the Mark of the Beast like that, the prophecy would be instantly nullified, and prove a failure.<< Not true. That would make Gd a liar. Gd knows whereof He speaks. Like, I keep getting the argument that the Pope is the antichrist – and ding however St John delineated the signifiers that identify the antichrist – I get back the response that the Pope is just fooling us with play-acting beliefs. !!! >>Everyone in the world would read it as plain as day, and of course, there would never be a Devil convincing the Papacy to worship on Sunday,<< See what I mean. Good grief—ain you not read the gist of this thread? If you still think that the present-day Jewish/Hebrew calendar is more than a facsimile of the OT calendar... well, rotsa ruck. >>nor would they claim it to be their Mark.<< The ‘mark’ is self-defined. It is not simply a concoction of ideatic possibles. It is literal and described by the etymology of the word itself. Our pets are ‘chipped’, our soldiers have been experimentally ‘chipped’ for some time now, our hospitals have begun ‘tattooing’ their patients with invisible tattoos, etc. It’s coming. Universally coming – because... modern Iran/Persia with the lamb-like horns – patrilineally descended from the Persian Ram of antiquity – is increasingly exporting terrorism. Everyone, every where, will – for the preservation of the State, be ‘chipped’ – to track their every movement, purchase, sale, etc. No more the lazy meander through a Natl Park to commit arson, no more illicit purchase of contraband (guns and ammo, explosives, medicines, medical services, gold and silver, foodstuff...), no more the stealthy move along roads and over bridges to the next act of terrorism, no more... Big Bro will be watching... In a few years – the idea of paper money will be as gone as the dodo bird. You will be chipped. >>Why it would be just too obviously against the Bible!<< Won’t argue the fact that there are too many ‘interpretations’ that are against the expressed word of Writ. The question obtains –whose? >>Hence, God writes these things in code, only for the wise, for the hungry, for the thirsty, for the meek at heart to understand. Not to the proud, boastful, and sinful loving individuals who scoff.<< And not to those who withstand Gd – wresting sealed books before their unsealing; AD 1798 notwithstanding. >>While the Word of God is simple, it is not going to be simple without diligent study.<< Simple? Perhaps, the basic message is; however, Gd has hidden the meaning of much of Writ – and “diligent study” by itself will not always yield truths. >>And only those who hunger and thirst will study hard and diligently, and they will find their simple answers in doing so.<< The RCCs studied for nigh-on millennia – hungering and thirsting. Is your above statement an unintended compliment to the RCCs? >>Prophecy is like a massive jigsaw puzzle, and therefore people like Miz3 and jasd are going to have to realize that they are not going to find their answers unless they take out to read such books.<< There are books and there are books. Googling finds most anything a student of Writ needs nowadays. And yes, I’ve read more books on the Illuminates, 666, transmutation of elements, marks, spiritual preparations before searching for ginseng, copper and the noetic spirit, etc... Yes, dragons too. Some good. Much nonsense. The yin and the yang of white tigers and green dragons... Oh, why is Wales, British Isles – represented on its own flag with a Red Dragon – on a field of Muslim green and white?—don’t mean to be ummm, provocative, but Wales has been Jewish {whose symbol is a Lion} since before Roman times. Oh ympin’-yiminy!!—am I in it now... Oh, c’mon, I’m just bustin’ y’alls chops; as much diligent study can lead to – just so much nonsense. >>But they won't! They'll continue to expect you to give them a silly verse, refusing to accept that that is not how God works.<< Though I would readily accept a “silly verse” as opposed to constructs prematurely wrested from the book of Daniel – it is far from me to think of any of Gd’s verses – as silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 >>Yes, right. I think it's a waste of time to talk to those who have already heard the truth and have determined to reject it.<< Sheesh, my sentiments, exactly. Forbid, that we’s soul-mates, eh?—or mind-melded in some freak accident of the universe. Oy! >>We can waste hours and even days and weeks talking to them while people who've never heard it are left to themselves.<< Yeah, that’s why I persevere – using you guys as bounceboards – that some small bit of reasonableness will survive to the benefit of some wayfarin’ stranger – lurker? Is that self-serving and hubristic? Dunno, wha’s that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 Quote: Quote:Lysimachus like pulling teeth =/ I meant to ask, what's =/ ? It looks like Hitler's mustache above a wry or crooked smile. There was a crooked man, who had a crooked smile... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 30, 2011 Anyway, ain not William Sutton the bank robber?—what’s he gonna be telling me about this and that?—ain not a mind to be robbing banks. So there. The same name but not the same person, I assure you. The robber died in 1980, and I believe the books were written after that. My father told me that William Sutton came and stayed in my parents home during a visit in Tennessee sometime around 1987. I believe he'd just published his second book, the one on the Illuminati. Anyone know if he's still alive? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted September 30, 2011 Author Share Posted September 30, 2011 >>The same name but not the same person, I assure you. The books were written after the bank robber died.<< I know, the name just jumped out at me and I indulged my characteristically stupid self. At my age, you take humor where you can get it. Chortles for mortals - a quiver in the liver and a clabber in the bladder doeth good like a medicine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 30, 2011 If you still think that the present-day Jewish/Hebrew calendar is more than a facsimile of the OT calendar... well, rotsa ruck. The U.S. Naval Observatory isn't dependent on the Jewish calender for their understanding of time. If you write to them, they will tell you that no time has been "lost." Our Sabbath is the same as the Sabbath in Jesus' day. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 30, 2011 Yes, I was sure you were joking. That is kinda funny. I'm sure the writer was reminded of it a lot. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted September 30, 2011 >>Yes, right. I think it's a waste of time to talk to those who have already heard the truth and have determined to reject it.<< Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 You think that satan cannot read the code. That is laughable. Besides there is nothing that can "nullify" what God has planned. Satan knows that he and everyone else will bow the knew the to God. That is an "overt prophecy". If satan can "nullify" "overt prophecy" why doesn't he "nullify" this prophecy. Your position and erroneous theory of "nullification" is frankly so stupid as to boggle the mind---no offense was meant personally in that remark. I am just speaking to the absurdity of the concept. Things I say always seem to go right over your head Miz3. We can say things to you, but you always digest them differently, and I might add, carnally. You don't digest the spiritual implications of what we say, so therefore you say foolish things revealing your lack of understanding. Satan knows the code well. Nobody said he doesn't. But Satan is going to try with every ounce of energy he has to see if just "maybe" he can oust God. And he is thinking that even if he loses, he wants to bring down as many with him as possible. And yes, there is nothing that can "nullify" what God has planned. But everything that God has planned He has written to the wise and honest. If God wrote his prophecies for the simpleton-minded troglodytes who love nothing else but themselves, then surely God's prophecies would fail. But that's not God. God's prophecies will not be nullified, and they will not fail--because they were written to the wise. That is, to those who desire to know the truth and are hungry and thirsty after righteousness. There is nothing mind-boggling about understanding that if God had said "The Beast is the Papacy", there never would have been a system called the "Papacy". Or if it mentioned "the Beast is the Catholic Church or the Whore", there never would have been such a system. They wouldn't call themselves that! What is truly mind boggling is how you refuse to not see how simple this is. It is readily apparent to anyone who wishes to discern spiritual things that God has written these things in code so that the prophecy might come to pass to a precise T. Such prophecies are confusion to the wicked, but they are understood by the righteous. God knows what He's doing when He writes His prophecies. This is just mumbo jumbo that gives power to the human manipulative interpreters who claim that only they can unlock the "mysterious code". It is also the "story" that one gives to legitimize their "wild" theories in an attempt to stop the questions and the inquiries into the real Truth. Your stuck because the RCC/Pope is shown to be mere copycats and bit players because the apostasy that changed Saturday Sabbath Worship to the false Sunday Worship actually happened millenia before the RCC/Pope were even a gleam in anyone's eye. This FACT supported by the Bible, your Prophet Ellen G. White, and the FACTS of secular history actually destroys your failed theory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 This is just mumbo jumbo that gives power to the human manipulative interpreters who claim that only they can unlock the "mysterious code". It is also the "story" that one gives to legitimize their "wild" theories in an attempt to stop the questions and the inquiries into the real Truth. Your stuck because the RCC/Pope is shown to be mere copycats and bit players because the apostasy that changed Saturday Sabbath Worship to the false Sunday Worship actually happened millenia before the RCC/Pope were even a gleam in anyone's eye. This FACT supported by the Bible, your Prophet Ellen G. White, and the FACTS of secular history actually destroys your failed theory. Nobody doubts that Sunday Worship can be dated all the way back to Nimrod. But you miss the point. The Papacy is the first power to "transfer the religious sanctity from Saturday to Sunday" via official, legal, declaration. Big difference there brother. Christians worshiping on Sunday began as early as in the 2nd century A.D., which precisely aligns with Paul's prediction of the "falling away", or "apostasia" that commenced in his day. In case you forgot, I have already documented in chronological order on this forum the various forms of how Sunday found its way into Christian worship. You would be surprised to find that Sunday in the Christian church finds its origin in the persecution of the Jews and all Judaizing practices by the Emperor Hadrian in 135 A.D., who forbade all Jews and all Jewish sympathizers to worship on the Sabbath. Therefore, those Christians who were worshiping on the Sabbath found themselves in great peril, and so many of them began to worship on Sunday in order to impress the Roman authorities and show their differences with the Jews. So much of Sunday worship originates from compromise with the Romans, and then, in order to justify this, these compromising Christians made up the idea that they worshiped on Sunday in honor of the resurrection. But this was not the REAL reason. This was only a false "justification" that they came up with. But even then, there was no official decree or sanction by the Bishop of Rome that the sanctity from Saturday had changed to Sunday. This was not done until Pope Sylvester I in the 4th century A.D. So when Ellen White said that the Pope changed the day from Saturday to Sunday, I know it ain't so comfortable for you to hear mister, but I've got news. I've got gigantic news! She was spot on! Like it, or not! Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Exactly Which Pope Changed The Sabbath to Sunday? Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted September 30, 2011 Share Posted September 30, 2011 Right on. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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