Dr. Shane Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 When did the US start living up to the lofty claim of liberty and justice for all? Answering a question with a question is a way of avoiding a question. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 12, 2011 I'm not talking about loving or hating a country, it's about being honest about the true nature of America. I am honest about America. What have I said that you believe is not realistic or honest about America? Believe me, I know all about our failures, but I also know our successess. But then maybe you aren't talking about what I've said. I got to really know America when I was a teen-ager and hitch-hiked, walked, and road freight trains all over the country. I saw it all-- both its wrinkles and its beauty. I have absolutely no desire to avoid any of it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: Shane Who is the leader? Who is the example? I've heard "America-- the last best hope of the world". Never heard any other country named there. I think an American said that, it would be strange if he had named another country in that regard. Most nations have made that statement about themselves at one time. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: lazarus When did the US start living up to the lofty claim of liberty and justice for all? Answering a question with a question is a way of avoiding a question. And of course you asked a tangential question as a way of not reponding to my original statement becasue you cannot bring yourself to address the fact that America has not lived up to it's lofty aims. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: Shane Once again. Which country is the example that the US should be following? Who is the moral leader among nations? There isn't one. Yet he will continue to run down the greatest nation in the world. But he has the right to do that over here. And I think he makes a fairly good living over here too. America should have been true to it's own claims about itself, right? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 What claims? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 12, 2011 I think an American said that, it would be strange if he had named another country in that regard. Most nations have made that statement about themselves at one time. "We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth. Other means may succeed; this could not fail. The way is plain, peaceful, generous, just -- a way which, if followed, the world will forever applaud, and God must forever bless." Abraham Lincoln, December 1862 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 12, 2011 Two horns like a lamb: a Christian nation Traditional Adventist teaching is that it represents republican government. Civil and Ecclesiastical power as the two separate horns. Not a Christian nation. A seemingly innocent lamb that behaves like a wild beast. Quote: spoke like a dragon: passes the national Sunday law so that all will worship the image of the beast The USA is a nation that is predicted to demonstrate the intolerance and injustice of the Papacy during the Dark Ages. The USA has already demonstrated that it has persecution and injustice in it's "DNA". That's undeniable. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 12, 2011 What claims? We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 you asked a tangential question as a way of not responding to my original statement because you cannot bring yourself to address the fact that America has not lived up to it's lofty aims. Actually, while in college I did a paper comparing civil rights in the US with other nations throughout history. That is the only way to measure a nation. If we are going to talk about slavery in America in 1840 we need to look at other nations in the world in 1840 and see how America measured up. That is what I did. I know the answer to my question. It is quite obvious that you don't. Your avoiding my question makes it appear that you just simply jumped on an anti-America band wagon and are ill-prepared to defend your position. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 The USA has already demonstrated that it has persecution and injustice in it's "DNA". Which nation has demonstrated it has no persecution and no injustice in its "DNA"? Who is the leader? Who should the US be following? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 12, 2011 Actually, while in college I did a paper comparing civil rights in the US with other nations throughout history. That is the only way to measure a nation. If we are going to talk about slavery in America in 1840 we need to look at other nations in the world in 1840 and see how America measured up. That is what I did. I know the answer to my question. It is quite obvious that you don't. Your avoiding my question makes it appear that you just simply jumped on an anti-America band wagon and are ill-prepared to defend your position. Ok, so you wrote a paper in college, so did many others. You wrote that paper in an American college. Of course you are going to address the issue in that way. It's self serving. Americans have a hard time embracing a view that is not wholely supportive of it current perception of itself. That's natural. Of course I know the answer to that question, please!!! It's really not that difficult. We know where you are going with that. You attempt to make other look less intelligent than you don't make you arguments more persuasive. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: lazarus The USA has already demonstrated that it has persecution and injustice in it's "DNA". Which nation has demonstrated it has no persecution and no injustice in its "DNA"? Who is the leader? Who should the US be following? So in essence your argument is: Since the US is supposedly better than everyone else it doesn't really matter that we have not lived up to our claims about nation. Since everyone else got B's and C's it doesn't matter that I claimed to be an A's student when all I got was B+'s. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Of course you are going to address the issue in that way. It's self serving. Americans have a hard time embracing a view that is not wholely supportive of it current perception of itself. That's natural. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 So in essence your argument is: Since the US is supposedly better than everyone else it doesn't really matter that we have not lived up to our claims about nation. First: America has not been better than everyone else. Second: America's claims must be read in the context of the time they were made. When we read a document written in 1789 we cannot read it in a context of 2011. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 America should have been true to it's own claims about itself, right? America is a country made up of millions of people.People with as many warts and faults as you have yourself. I personally believe that God had his hand over the founding of this country.Some may not. The principals which this country was founded on were unheard of at the time and way ahead of it's time.The principals did not mean that this country was settled by a perfect people with perfect leaders. Prejudices and culture came right along with along with what was ignorance by our current standards. God did not make all the imperfections vanish but I believe laid the ground work for the possibilities afforded in this country. When you locate the country that can provide the perfection you demand of the US please share. The rights we have give people the right to be as big a jerk as they choose for the most part. They can be a US citizen and work against everything this country stands for as long as it is not terrorism. Laws will not always be correctly enforced,that happens with imperfect people. We will lose our freedoms someday but I don't know of a country that will not. Had this been a perfect country with perfect leaders the US would still have a prophetic role to play. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 12, 2011 First: America has not been better than everyone else. We agree on that. Progress! Quote: When we read a document written in 1789 we cannot read it in a context of 2011. I'm not suggesting that. I'm asking the US to judge itself on the basis of its own claims about itself. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: RLH What claims? We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. One nation under God, indivisible, with liberty, and justice for all. That was written by Francis Bellamy way back in 1892. I don't think you can really call that a claim or a promise from the country. But by and large this country has stood for those values, for a long time. Although not in our lifetime. But we're living in the toes of the feet made of iron mixed with clay, and are nearing the end of time now. Being an "Adventist minister" surely you know enough about Bible prophecy to know that this nation was not going to stay the same forever. You act as if you are surprised by it all, and even appalled, and indignant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Quote: When we read a document written in 1789 we cannot read it in a context of 2011. I'm not suggesting that. But that is what you are doing. You quote the US Constitution in saying that all men are created equal and endowed with unalienable rights by their Creator and then you interpret the phrase "all men" as we understand the phrase in 2011. In context, the founders were talking about property owners. Slavery was still practiced in most of the world in 1789. The abolition movement was just starting to produce some results - a few being in the northern colonies/states. Women had no rights at all. So clearly "all men" in 1789 didn't mean the same as "all men" in 2011. Over the past 300 years the US has kept up with the advance of civil rights. In most areas the US has been closer to the front than the rear but in most cases one will find that some other country was first to ban the slave trade, ban slavery, grant women suffrage and ban discrimination. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 Quote: That was written by Francis Bellamy way back in 1892. I don't think you can really call that a claim or a promise from the country. But by and large this country has stood for those values, for a long time. Although not in our lifetime. One is the declaration of independence and the other the pledge of allegiance. A declaration is often a claim. "We hold these truths to be self evident....." is most definitely a claim. When our children recite the pledge of allegiance they are pledging allegiance to a country that claims/promises liberty and justice for all. Quote: But we're living in the toes of the feet made of iron mixed with clay, and are nearing the end of time now. Being an "Adventist minister" surely you know enough about Bible prophecy to know that this nation was not going to stay the same forever. You act as if you are surprised by it all, and even appalled, and indignant. Daniel 2 is not about the US. It's about Europe. As a teenager, I was appalled and surprised when I first realized when the USA did not live up to its claims of liberty and justice for all. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 As a teenager, I was appalled and surprised when I first realized when the USA did not live up to its claims of liberty and justice for all. The USA is made up of all kinds of imperfect people, so I don't think anyone should be surprised if our beloved country makes mistakes and is imperfect. It's like a family where it's OK for family members to talk against the mother or against another member because they know the person talking loves the family and would die to help them. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 Daniel 2 is not about the US. It's about Europe. But do you recognize that God has blessed the United States in a special way and directed in her becoming a nation? God did it in order to bless the world, not because we as a people were any better than other people, but because God knew the potential of this country for good. Our problem is when we forget this and forget the republican principles on which this nation was founded. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 You quote the US Constitution in saying that all men are created equal and endowed with unalienable rights by their Creator and then you interpret the phrase "all men" as we understand the phrase in 2011. In context, the founders were talking about property owners. Slavery was still practiced in most of the world in 1789. The abolition movement was just starting to produce some results - a few being in the northern colonies/states. Women had no rights at all. So clearly "all men" in 1789 didn't mean the same as "all men" in 2011. Over the past 300 years the US has kept up with the advance of civil rights. In most areas the US has been closer to the front than the rear but in most cases one will find that some other country was first to ban the slave trade, ban slavery, grant women suffrage and ban discrimination. Ok, I'm gonna ask a dumb question....When the founders said "all men", how do we know that they men "ALL men" or "all property owning men"? Why didnt they say it that way, as in "all property owning men"? And for that matter, why is it that while society may have interpreted the phrase "all men" as meaning 'all property owning men', why did the phrase become enlarged over time to include black men, women, all mankind whether they owned property or not? It occurs to me that America had to fight a civil war over the rights of certain colored men. England never fought that civil war? Why? They were a larger and more generous nation when they freed the black man....and they did it before the US did.... Where is the moral compass, gentlemen? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 A declaration is often a claim. "We hold these truths to be self evident....." is most definitely a claim. When our children recite the pledge of allegiance they are pledging allegiance to a country that claims/promises liberty and justice for all. Yes, and I am sure you want the American people and the government to continue to hold those ideals and teach them to the children. But what happens if our talk about these things causes young people to believe the claims/promises are a lot of lies which only a fool would take seriously? Is that good for anyone? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: lazarus A declaration is often a claim. "We hold these truths to be self evident....." is most definitely a claim. When our children recite the pledge of allegiance they are pledging allegiance to a country that claims/promises liberty and justice for all. Yes, and I am sure you want the American people and the government to continue to hold those ideals and teach them to the children. But what happens if our talk about these things causes young people to believe the claims/promises are a lot of lies which only a fool would take seriously? Is that good for anyone? Well,maybe those that keep entering this country will hear what a terrible country this is and stay home or go elsewhere. With all the economic turmoil they seem to know where to go where they will be fed,housed and receive medical care. Some of the superior countries would do well to rescue them and open their borders wide It gets really tiresome to hear the continual degrading of the US followed by "Give Me,Give Me,I am Entitled" Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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