Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 When the founders said "all men", how do we know that they men "ALL men" or "all property owning men"? Why didnt they say it that way, as in "all property owning men"? And for that matter, why is it that while society may have interpreted the phrase "all men" as meaning 'all property owning men', why did the phrase become enlarged over time to include black men, women, all mankind whether they owned property or not? Are you talking about the first part of the Declaration of Independence? The truth is that not all Americans were in agreement about who "all men" included. As far as voting rights are concerned, the early Americans gave the right to vote only to men who owned land. The reason for this is that it was believed that the vote should only be given to those who had education and had a vested interest in the future. I actually think that makes good sense, but I don't believe it's a policy we should or could go back to today. The idea was that a successful republic depends on wise decisions of the electorate, and that requires the elecorate to be educated. It's unfair, though, to judge people according to the values and standards of times or places in which they didn't live. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 It gets really tiresome to hear the continual degrading of the US followed by "Give Me,Give Me,I am Entitled" The US became a great nation by bringing up children to believe they were entitled to the right to work hard-- not to believe the government or their fellow citizens owned them something for nothing. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Ok, I'm gonna ask a dumb question....When the founders said "all men", how do we know that they men "ALL men" or "all property owning men"? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach Ok, I'm gonna ask a dumb question....When the founders said "all men", how do we know that they men "ALL men" or "all property owning men"? We study the language used by other authors during that same time and see how it was used. A great source for this is the Constitutional Debates, the Federalist Papers and the Anti-Federalist Papers. In the debates on the consitution, you can find evidence that the Founding Fathers considered outlawing slavery, but it would have caused us to be two separate nations. Also, Jefferson initially wrote anti-slavery passages in the Declaration of Independence, but they were edited out in order to get all 13 Colonies to sign it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 It occurs to me that the concept of "all men" being created equal in the eyes of God had a great impact upon the common man in the day of the constitution....but the language that was used was of something greater...Even the "federist" and "anti-federist" papers make mention of this, and the fact that Jefferson also put into the constitution language that was anti-slavery were seeds that the phrase "all men" was to be something greater and meant so at the signing of the constitution. Just because the common intent understood by the common man doesn't mean that the founding fathers didn't hammer out something greater. A poet, or a writer, may say something one way, but the intent is greater than the wording used. It was only when the courts got involved that other sources were looked at.... It occurs to me that you guys are shorting the intent of the founding fathers when it actuality, they truely intended the 2011 meaning...The courts and a few wars had to overcome some prejudicial minds... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Ok, I'm gonna ask a dumb question....When the founders said "all men", how do we know that they men "ALL men" or "all property owning men"? Why didnt they say it that way, as in "all property owning men"? And for that matter, why is it that while society may have interpreted the phrase "all men" as meaning 'all property owning men', why did the phrase become enlarged over time to include black men, women, all mankind whether they owned property or not? It occurs to me that America had to fight a civil war over the rights of certain colored men. England never fought that civil war? Why? They were a larger and more generous nation when they freed the black man....and they did it before the US did.... Where is the moral compass, gentlemen? What a moral compass England was.England was such a fair and generous land that a seven year old could be sent to prison for stealing because he was hungry. If you were not born to a titled family/royalty/privilege you could expect little.While they may have outlawed one form of slavery they certainly kept their own brand. Those that came to this terribly flawed land risked life and limb to get here and away from such a country of fairness.Most never again seeing family they left behind. Members of my mother's family that emigrated left behind the luxury of sleeping in haystacks ,one burrowing in a manure pile to escape debtors prison and finally make her way to America.But this was a generous nation.One that was established long before America.Another suffocating her newborn infant,rather than let him grow up without any hope in generous England.One prostituting herself to obtain passage to this terrible land to escape being sent to the "generous"penal colonies of Australia that England provided. England should be roundly condemned and demonized today for the actions of previous years. But they outlawed slavery.All this from a country that had generations of being a settled land and certainly knew better. It takes a perfect people to put into practise any laws.To bad they all got left behind in England and only the imperfect came to America Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 It's like a family where it's OK for family members to talk against the mother or against another member because they know the person talking loves the family and would die to help them. Le's run with that analogy... Le's say there is a family in your church that often talks about their togetherness, love for each other, the bond that exists between them. They even suggest they are are doing some new and creative things in their family that brings them closer together. They even suggest that they are a model that other families should seek to emulate. The actually travel to other churches present on various family life topics. Then you come to learn that they have a disabled child who no one has ever heard about or seen. That child is regularly abused and neglected. They even say the child is not really a member of the family but you come to learn he is their child. Then you learn that they put their parents in a home. They never visit and their was a history of abuse before they were put in a home. Perhaps your perception of that family would change. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: lazarus Daniel 2 is not about the US. It's about Europe. But do you recognize that God has blessed the United States in a special way and directed in her becoming a nation? Sure. We've seen that before. God used Israel and blessed her. God used the Roman Empire to spread Christianity. God has blessed and used many nations. That's His style. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 But what happens if our talk about these things causes young people to believe the claims/promises are a lot of lies which only a fool would take seriously? Is that good for anyone? It's important to be honest. Americans, particularly Caucasians have a tough time embracing the truth about American liberty. There is a cognitive dissonance when it comes to American liberty. Men left Europe in pursuit of liberty only to enslave men and women in a most brutal fashion. Free men persecuted Quakers in the new world, burned their books and imprisoned them. Once we understand this truth we can be free from the "rose tinted" vision of American liberty and justice. MLK was able to present a devastating critique of American liberty but yet inspire our young people. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 But they outlawed slavery.All this from a country that had generations of being a settled land and certainly knew better. The Uk has a terrible history of persecution of injustice but interestingly it caught the USA and passed it in terms of the freedoms it gave to it's citizens and non-citizens. In the 1950's my own father chose the UK rather than the USA because he could not bring himself to live in a land where men and women were not truly free. This was the 1950's !!!! He faced prejudice in the UK but the level of injustice and oppression was minimal as compared to the US. Ironies of ironies. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Those voices are in your head, they are not real. [/quote'] No,it is in your posts and that of others.It is in the words of all that want their "Entitlements". Entitlements they demand from others because of their economic circumstances, the color of their skin,the way they speak,or their own behaviour. When it is not enough and it never will be,it is condemn and blame. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie But they outlawed slavery.All this from a country that had generations of being a settled land and certainly knew better. The Uk has a terrible history of persecution of injustice but interestingly it caught the USA and passed it in terms of the freedoms it gave to it's citizens and non-citizens. In the 1950's my own father chose the UK rather than the USA because he could not bring himself to live in a land where men and women were not truly free. This was the 1950's !!!! He faced prejudice in the UK but the level of injustice and oppression was minimal as compared to the US. Ironies of ironies. Given England was a much older "civilized" nation it did not catch the USA and pass it.It should have been light years ahead Glad your dad made a choice that made him happy. Stil doesn't explain our problem of so many foolish or ignorant people fighting to get here.Nor the demands they place on US citizens. You would think in this information age it would be well known and they would go to England or wherever could be found a perfect land with perfect people obeying perfect laws. Instead thousands continue to come and continue to demand Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 Stil doesn't explain our problem of so many foolish or ignorant people fighting to get here.Nor the demands they place on US citizens. That's really about economics. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie Stil doesn't explain our problem of so many foolish or ignorant people fighting to get here.Nor the demands they place on US citizens. That's really about economics. You cannot seperate economics from all the rest of your complaints against the US Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 No,it is in your posts and that of others.It is in the words of all that want their "Entitlements". Entitlements they demand from others because of their economic circumstances, the color of their skin,the way they speak,or their own behaviour. When it is not enough and it never will be,it is condemn and blame. So here we go, which posts and the post of others are saying "gimme gimme gimme". What entitlements do I ask for? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie No,it is in your posts and that of others.It is in the words of all that want their "Entitlements". Entitlements they demand from others because of their economic circumstances, the color of their skin,the way they speak,or their own behaviour. When it is not enough and it never will be,it is condemn and blame. So here we go, which posts and the post of others are saying "gimme gimme gimme". What entitlements do I ask for? I have no idea if or what. You seem to be in favor of and not feeling "Entitlements" are not enough or fair.Being in favor of or pushing for entitlements in general whether you are receiving them or not is what I am referring to. Rights and entitlements are being created where rights do not exist.Entilements,payment for those manufactued rights keep increasing. Increase the demand and you will increase the "need" Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie So here we go, which posts and the post of others are saying "gimme gimme gimme". What entitlements do I ask for? I have no idea if or what. As was said, the voices are in your head..... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Quote: I have no idea if or what. Quote: As was said, the voices are in your head..... No,as frequently happens a few words are chosen to be quoted to give the impression some want Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 The continual creating of "rights" creates "entitlements" .Entitlements people have a "right" to without working for it and demanding others do so. You(general) have a right to home ownership if you work hard,save,are credit worthy and keep up your payments.You do not have a right to homeownership because of gender,poverty,skin color or because you talk differently. You have a right to a higher education as long as you work for it and pay for it.It is not a right because of gender,poverty,skin color or because you talk differently. You do not have a right to welfare or extended unemployment(welfare)if there is work available.We have a safety net that should be used only when you have done all you can to help yourself.A privilege,not a right You have a right by law to a abortion,you should not have the right to force others to pay for selective abortions. You have a right to have cell phone service if you work and pay for it.You do not have a right to that service when others have to pay it for you. Those that do so privately,more power to them.We have a private charity here that does unbelievable work without any government help. It is either 96 0r 98 cents of every dollar that is donated goes to help those in need. She has built shelters and shelters up to 300 people a night.Many are families.She provides food,clothing and works non stop to help them find work.This is voluntary.When I can this is where any aid I can give goes. When I make a dozen pair of pajama's or quilts I know it is in partnership with someone that will do the most with what she receives.I am glad to do what I can,but it still is not a "right' that anyone has to force me to do that Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 The Uk has a terrible history of persecution of injustice but interestingly it caught the USA and passed it in terms of the freedoms it gave to it's citizens and non-citizens. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 It occurs to me that you guys are shorting the intent of the founding fathers when it actuality, they truely intended the 2011 meaning...The courts and a few wars had to overcome some prejudicial minds... We have no impact on the founding fathers. They died long before we were born. All we can do is examine the documents from that time to determine what they were trying to say. Banning slavery in the late 1700s was a revolutionary idea. Only Russia had banned slavery and that wasn't really a ban because they still held onto a form of it. The northern states were among the first governments in the world to ban slavery and some of them had not even done it yet when the Constitution was ratified. I don't think any had banned it when the Declaration of Independence was written. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Daniel 2 is not about the US. It's about Europe. Who said anything about Daniel 2? America is in Bible prophecy, just not in Dan. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 14, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: lazarus Daniel 2 is not about the US. It's about Europe. Who said anything about Daniel 2? America is in Bible prophecy, just not in Dan. 2 You mentioned iron and clay, that's Daniel 2. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 14, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 14, 2011 I was told by a black friend of mine in the 1990s that businesses in the UK were still allowed to ask for race on the job application. That was banned in the US in the 1960s. It's not illegal in the USA. It's is collected for demographic analysis and to ensure that the employer is an equal opportunity employer. An employer can still ask for this information in the US and the UK Quote: He didn't need to go all the way to the UK. He could have went to Massachusetts or California and probably found less discrimination than the UK. He was certainly wise not to go to Georgia or Mississippi. That response illustrates perfectly the nature of American justice and liberty. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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