Alchemy Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 At the crucifixion, did Christ's divine nature die as well? In this discussion, we will say the flesh of Christ died the second death. I don't want to discuss that point here. What I do want to discuss is this; Did the divine nature of Christ die or suffer soul sleep at the crucifixion? Quote Luke 12:32 NKJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 12, 2011 Deity-- God-- cannot possibly die, or cease to exist. By definition, God is not subject to death. Even God cannot will Himself into non-existence. Jesus is the God-Man, and as such, our humanity which Christ assumed died, but not His divinity. One way we know this from Scripture is that Jesus Himself said that He would raise His own body from the grave. This is only possible if Christ's divine nature did not die. Other verses which indicate this are Col. 1: 17 and 2: 9. These verses make clear that Christ's deity never ceased to uphold the universe and that in His body all the fullness of the Godhead was continually dwelling. Col. 1: 17--And He exists before all things and in Him all things hold together. 2: 9-- For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 "When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." [EGW] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 When it says "His divinity did not die", wouldn't it be tempting for the "immortal soulists" to conclude that by saying such, we are actually "admitting" that Christ had a consciousness in a deity form outside his body? This has puzzled me. What are your thoughts John317? Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 My understanding is that Christ had no consciousness of being God until and unless the Father gave such awareness to Him. So when Jesus lay dead in the grave, Jesus the man was as unaware of anything as any other humans are during death. Satan was able to tempt Christ because Jesus of Nazareth had no memory of being in heaven. As far as His actual memory was concerned, He had His beginning of life at Bethlehem. Ellen White writes that Satan told Jesus that if He were really beloved of God, God wouldn't have abandoned Him out in the desert and allowed Him to be hungry and thirsty. And then Satan claimed to be an angel of God who was only testing Jesus to see how faithful He would be. None of those things would have been a temptation to Christ if Christ had clear memories of being in heaven or if Christ could read Satan's mind. Jesus of Nazareth was clearly limited in His knowledge as any other human is in their knowledge, unless God revealed it to Him. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 My understanding is that Christ had no consciousness of being God until and unless the Father gave such awareness to Him. When Christ became a man in the incarnation He had to give up not His divinity, but His divine prerogatives, in other words, the independent use of His divinity. Even His God-consciousness had to be given up. Jesus discovered He was God only by revelation. He was not God-conscious as a baby. He had to grow up in knowledge. He had to grow up in everything because He had given up the independent use of His divinity and was made in all things like unto us (Heb. 2:17). Therefore, He was totally God-dependent all through His earthly ministry. John 5:30 says, “I can do nothing of myself.” John 6:57 says, “I live by the Father.” See also John 8:28 and John 14:10. All these texts state very clearly that Christ, as the son of man, was totally God-dependent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 Well put, Robert. That's how I understand it also. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Thanks John317 and Robert. That makes a lot of sense. :) Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Of course, people could still ask how Jesus could possibly raise Himself if His Divinity had no consciousness. If you know what I mean. Perhaps some of these mysteries we'll never fully learn until we reach our heavenly destination. :) Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Of course I know that. But then what do you do with John 2:19? The way I look at it is that if His Divinity did not die, yet He was not conscious in death, as Ellen White says when she mentions His spirit slept in the tomb with Him, it just must mean that God was in charge of Christ's Divinity somehow, and that although God raised Jesus from the dead, in a sense, it was though Jesus was raising Himself because Jesus was God, and that "God-consciousness" was separated from Him and rested, but yet in His Father's hands. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2011 Robert, wouldn't you agree that all three persons of the Godhead-- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-- were involved in the raising of Christ from the grave just as they are always working in harmony together? For instance, they made the world together and also made the plan of redemption together. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
12tribes Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 When it says "His divinity did not die", wouldn't it be tempting for the "immortal soulists" to conclude that by saying such, we are actually "admitting" that Christ had a consciousness in a deity form outside his body? This has puzzled me. What are your thoughts John317? That is a question I have often thought about as well Quote Galatians 3:29(29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Robert, wouldn't you agree that all three persons of the Godhead-- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-- were involved in the raising of Christ from the grave just as they are always working in harmony together? For instance, they made the world together and also made the plan of redemption together. I suppose so.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 My understanding is that Christ had no consciousness of being God until and unless the Father gave such awareness to Him. So when Jesus lay dead in the grave, Jesus the man was as unaware of anything as any other humans are during death. Satan was able to tempt Christ because Jesus of Nazareth had no memory of being in heaven. As far as His actual memory was concerned, He had His beginning of life at Bethlehem. Ellen White writes that Satan told Jesus that if He were really beloved of God, God wouldn't have abandoned Him out in the desert and allowed Him to be hungry and thirsty. And then Satan claimed to be an angel of God who was only testing Jesus to see how faithful He would be. None of those things would have been a temptation to Christ if Christ had clear memories of being in heaven or if Christ could read Satan's mind. Jesus of Nazareth was clearly limited in His knowledge as any other human is in their knowledge, unless God revealed it to Him. Where in the Bible does it say that Jesus Christ had no memory of Heaven or of being in Heaven? Did not Jesus Christ tell Peter that He had Authority to call Angels from Heaven to defend Himself. Again this is a display if ignorance of God and how God functions and is. They use nonBiblical sources and flawed human logic to support their alien views of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Then how could Jesus Christ claim that He laid down His own life and then He, Jesus Christ, took up His own life again? I thought the Father and Jesus Christ were two separate entities? Are they the same entity? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Robert Read Rom 6:4; Acts 2:24, 32; Eph. 1:20. All of these texts clearly tell us that it was the Father who raised Christ from the dead. Of course I know that. But then what do you do with John 2:19? The way I look at it is that if His Divinity did not die, yet He was not conscious in death, as Ellen White says when she mentions His spirit slept in the tomb with Him, it just must mean that God was in charge of Christ's Divinity somehow, and that although God raised Jesus from the dead, in a sense, it was though Jesus was raising Himself because Jesus was God, and that "God-consciousness" was separated from Him and rested, but yet in His Father's hands. You see how confused we become when we have "erroneous views of the Trinity" and are ignorant of God. This is the result of confusion by those who believe in a "limited bounded God". An "unbounded infinite God" has no such problems. That is the God of the Bible. Their god is a limited god encased in the limitations of their human imaginations. Thus, their confusion is unbounded but their god is small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lysimachus When it says "His divinity did not die", wouldn't it be tempting for the "immortal soulists" to conclude that by saying such, we are actually "admitting" that Christ had a consciousness in a deity form outside his body? This has puzzled me. What are your thoughts John317? That is a question I have often thought about as well "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26. Again, SDA theology tries to limit the discussion to either "sleep" or "immortality of the soul". They try and limit things to only these two options when other options are available. The text above states unequivocally that the "believer" will NEVER DIE. That is a flat out statement. Either it is true or it is not. There is nothing here about the dead "sleeping for millenea nor is their anything about the "soul (whatever this means) rising like a ghost to heaven and then getting a body at the second coming". Now in this same passage it is also true that Jesus Christ described Lazarus condition as a "sleep" and that Jesus was going to wake Lazarus up. Does that mean that if Jesus Christ had not raised Lazarus when He did that Lazarus would have "slept" until the second coming? Jesus Christ did not answer that question even when the sister raised that issue to Jesus Christ. In fact the text above was Jesus Christ's response to the sister's "second coming theory". In fact Jesus corrects her and asks her if she "believes this", that is His correction of her eschatology. Secondly, Jesus Christ flat out states that He is the "Resurrection and the Life". Can the "Resurrection and the Life" ever die? Hmmm! What does this say about Jesus Christ and His awareness and His use of His own Divinity? SDA theology has lots of issues on this topic. The problem is they believe in a god that is too small. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Then how could Jesus Christ claim that He laid down His own life and then He, Jesus Christ, took up His own life again? Give me that quote! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26....The text above states unequivocally that the "believer" will NEVER DIE. Let me help: “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; [this is the first death] 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die [the 2nd death]. Do you believe this?” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Robert, wouldn't you agree that all three persons of the Godhead-- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit-- were involved in the raising of Christ from the grave just as they are always working in harmony together? For instance, they made the world together and also made the plan of redemption together. Does the Bible state that this is the case in regard to the resurrection of Jesus Christ? OR Is this your own theory? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Then how could Jesus Christ claim that He laid down His own life and then He, Jesus Christ, took up His own life again? Give me that quote! "Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." John 2:19. "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep." John 10:11. "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep." John 10:15. "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again." John 10:17. "No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." John 10:18. There is your Biblical evidence, Robert. The claim is made because the Scripture says that is the FACT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted October 13, 2011 Share Posted October 13, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 "Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25-26....The text above states unequivocally that the "believer" will NEVER DIE. Let me help: “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; [this is the first death] 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die [the 2nd death]. Do you believe this?” Thank you Robert but I don't need your help. I already answered your question in a most recent post. In regards to this post of yours your analysis is extremely flawed. You are injecting things into the text that are not there. These are your words not the Word of God. The text does not make a differentiation here of the "first death" as opposed to the "second death". This text is in regard to the "death" of Lazarus only and Jesus Christ makes a general statement about such death in regard to all who "believe in Him". Sorry Robert but you cannot impose your "human belief system" and rewrite the express plain Word of God. This is not a commentary by Christ on the so-called "first and second death". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 In regards to this post of yours your analysis is extremely flawed. You are injecting things into the text that are not there. These are your words not the Word of God. You need to read your Bible. Then you would know that what I said concerning the first and 2nd death is fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 14, 2011 Share Posted October 14, 2011 "Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The "I" refers to His Deity, which was handed over to the Father until the resurrection. The Father called forth Christ's Deity and it's possible that Christ as God gave life to our glorified humanity that is now in Him in the heaven places. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.