Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Women in Ministry is not a moral issue. Homosexual behavior is. But women seeking to dominate men and control men is a moral and spiritual issue. It is also an attack on the established order of a God driven and Spirit Led family. But some have become so enamored with worldly principles they are blind to this attack. I fear that you may be one of these Tom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 It is ideological slavery to insist that they stay "in their place". Then your authority is not derived from Gods Word. You are arguing for ideological secularism to have ascendency over Gods stated order of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: rosh1182 Please also explain how you understand such passages in light of God's clear choice of females as spiritual leaders and teachers (e.g. Deborah in the Book of Judges and Ellen G. White). God's personally choosing a woman to be a prophet is quite different from the church choosing women to be pastors, etc. Those are two different kinds of spiritual gifts. It's significant that God generally called only men to be the leaders in Israel. There were no female priests, for instance, no females wrote the Word of God, and none were chosen by Christ to be among the original 12 disciples. But even when God did call women to be in leadership roles-- such as a judge and prophet-- they used it in a way that was different from the way male judges and prophets did. This is not to say that women don't have an important work to do in the church,--- because women definitely do have important ministries in the church-- but their work is different for the reasons mentioned in the Bible. See Paul's reasons given in 1 Cor. 11 and 14. I believe that if the SDA church votes to make women ordained leaders in the world church, including head pastors, etc., the church needs to study what the Bible says about it and only base its decisions on the teachings of Scripture, not on politics or modern social values. Well said. Women have a tendency inherited from Eve to seek control. This is little more than that. Arguing for women to be treated in a Christ like fashion would be "true" feminism. But trying to "roll over" Gods ordained order of things is what we are really being presented with as "feminism"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 And thats the problem. Secularist feminism argue this: "Men treat women badly, so women should be allowed to control men." It is not even "equality" here, but subjection of men to women that is really being pushed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 17, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore Yes, he asserted and "established" his "authority" at the moment he became the first blamer. It seems he got it from the real Accuser... And God said, "Fine if that is what you want, you are in charge of the disunity you just created." This statement has no basis in the recorded story. Don't forget that Eve blamed before Adam did, and God's curse on both the man and the woman was directly related to their own culpability in the matter.Authority is not established by a blamer, blame is an attempt to wrongly transfer authority to the blamee. Go back and read the story again. You are completely wrong. God speaks to Adam first and asks him if he ate of the forbidden tree. (v.11) Adam replied, "The woman you put here with me--she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it." (v.12) And then God spoke to the woman and she blamed the snake. (v.13). And you are rather confused about the meaning of blaming (accusing) another. Wagging a finger of accusation is asserting authority over another. Satan is the Accuser, usurping God's authority to caste judgment. That is exactly what Adam did rather than admitting he sinned. He cast judgement on Eve by trying to blaming her. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 17, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 17, 2011 And thats the problem. Secularist feminism argue this: "Men treat women badly, so women should be allowed to control men." It is not even "equality" here, but subjection of men to women that is really being pushed. You are very wrong. A restoration of equality would say that men and women can both lead. Nobody is saying that men should step aside and let women take over all leadership. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 17, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 The issues are not the same but the methodology is.I think that's what John has been trying to get at. So what. If I use the same method to cut a rock as I would to cut a stick, using a pocket knife, doesn't mean I will be successful in both instances. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 17, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore ...Just like throwing the gay boogie man at the discussion... We been round this bush too many times already. The issues are not the same. Women in Ministry is not a moral issue. Homosexual behavior is. Anything having to do with God's commands and instructions for the church is a moral issue... And then you obscure the issue by once again launching into the gay boogie man topic. Tell us where God specifically commands or instructs that women should never be allowed to serve as ministers or leaders. Remember that would require no exceptions if it is a moral issue. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 17, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: CoAspen And when was the last time you saw someone sitting around it their controlled office working by the sweat of their brow? Read the 'punishment' for males....any males actually doing what is described in Genesis other than the occasional farmer? Really? If working in the air conditioned office is such a joy then why does anybody need a vacation? Again read the curse more carefully and apply the entire curse as it reads as is being done so zealously on one point as it applies to women. Why leave out everything but the man lord it over subservient woman part? We are talking about the curse of sin. Jesus died to take away the curse of sin so that we no longer had to live under its curse. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 17, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: rosh1182 Please also explain how you understand such passages in light of God's clear choice of females as spiritual leaders and teachers (e.g. Deborah in the Book of Judges and Ellen G. White). God's personally choosing a woman to be a prophet is quite different from the church choosing women to be pastors, etc. ... But even when God did call women to be in leadership roles-- such as a judge and prophet-- they used it in a way that was different from the way male judges and prophets did. ... Really? Please show us how EGW is different than prophets that preceded her. And show how the Scripture tells us the distinction between female judges and prophets. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II And thats the problem. Secularist feminism argue this: "Men treat women badly, so women should be allowed to control men." It is not even "equality" here, but subjection of men to women that is really being pushed. You are very wrong. A restoration of equality would say that men and women can both lead. Nobody is saying that men should step aside and let women take over all leadership. Where did God demand "equality" in leadership for men and women? Eden? Israel? The disciples of Christ? The early church? There is a reason that God DID NOT give equality to women. It was Eve that first sought independence from God. That sinful trait was the reason that women were placed under men. This equality you insist on is not biblical. Therefore the argument you have bought into is a secular humanitarian argument that ultimately undermines Gods decrees and order of things. Divorce, sex before marriage, homosexuality, all use the same argument. The authority for your viewpoint is not biblical and it can never be biblical as it directly goes against Gods order of things. The woman was placed in subjection to man in the Garden of Eden. Gods decision on that has never been reversed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Tell us where God specifically commands or instructs that women should never be allowed to serve as ministers or leaders. Remember that would require no exceptions if it is a moral issue. Tell us where God overturned His decision in the garden of Eden that places women under men in spiritual hierarchy? Maybe the issue here is that you do not understand Gods character on this point? Maybe you mistakenly view Gods original decision as "sexist" and need therefore to remove that decision? Question: If you and others that hold this view are so enlightened on the point that women should be held in equality with men in spiritual leadership rolse, why didn't Jesus or the disciples institute that? Answer: They didn't because it was not Gods will. The position you argue for is secular and anti-Christian because it directly contradicts Gods own revealed position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Jesus died to take away the curse of sin so that we no longer had to live under its curse. Oh, so you do not die now then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Please show us how EGW is different than prophets that preceded her. That is quite an easy one... Jeremiah did not have to submit to His wife in the leadership of the home and even in church. Ellen White did and even practiced that principal openly, respecting James position as head of the home. She even argued that position for other women to follow... So whilst she was a prophet, she agreed with Gods verdict in Eden. She was a Christian Woman that followed Gods principles on the order of the home. She was a woman and accepted she was a woman under Gods direction, that was how she was different... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 And there is such scant support for this equality view (veiled superiority of women in reality), that the only response will eventually come down to a charge of bigotry on sexism on this thread I imagine... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 17, 2011 Then again, maybe God is ambivalent and the divided vote either reflects that ambivalence or God just wants us to make up our minds on something that He doesn't see as such a burning issue of right or wrong. Excellent. Many of the things we fight about are not explicit in scripture. While we are still fighting, God will continue to use women to do weddings, funerals, Bible studies, baptisms. etc. Alas he can't use them as conference presidents but I think He will still get his work done. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 17, 2011 Quote: Jeremiah did not have to submit to His wife in the leadership of the home and even in church. That's cos he didn't have a wife. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Women have a tendency inherited from Eve to seek control. Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Quote: Jeremiah did not have to submit to His wife in the leadership of the home and even in church. That's cos he didn't have a wife. Do you think if he did, he would have submitted to her? What of Peter? Did he have to submit to his wife? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SivartM Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Do you think if he did, he would have submitted to her? What of Peter? Did he have to submit to his wife? That's pure speculation! Obviously you would say no. We know nothing about Jeremiah's imaginary wife or Peter's wife. You can't just make a factual error and then cover it up with speculation. What about Jesus' wife? He didn't have one? Oh, well, if he did have one... Quote "Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde�Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 How is that seeking any more control than men are seeking? God has already granted the Christian man control in Eden. And denied it to women. Men do not have to "strive" for it as it is already theirs. Women however tend to "strive" for it, rejecting Gods explicit command. -------------- I noted Toms argument earlier trying to state there was a "new order" of things established at the Cross with Christ. But that "new order" is not evidenced in the Apostolic Church. In fact, Gods original decree in Eden is confirmed. Interesting... Which of course is the same argument used to establish Sunday Worship, no exlicit reference to such a change, but claiming it is in fact a reality... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Do you think if he did, he would have submitted to her? What of Peter? Did he have to submit to his wife? That's pure speculation! Obviously you would say no. We know nothing about Jeremiah's imaginary wife or Peter's wife. You can't just make a factual error and then cover it up with speculation. What about Jesus' wife? He didn't have one? Oh, well, if he did have one... We can clearly see that women did not "rule over" the men from the New Testament. The edict given in Eden was maintained throughout the early church. The arguments for this change to the edict are as usual very very weak and ignore the simple plain statements that support the original edict. Why is it feminists struggle with Paul? Simple. Paul re-iterates the original edict from Eden and they do not like it, they reject it and often decry Paul as being a "cultural sexist"... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 The simple fact of the matter is this. Gods edict in Eden was that women were to be subject to their husbands. His edict for the service of the sanctuary also precluded women explicitly from the role of spiritual leaders. This edict has not been overturned biblically. It is these edicts that feminism attacks. To which our liberal friends seem blind to in their need to be "all inclusive", so blind they will even reject Gods own opinion on the matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest arnie Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Did I miss something? You're saying that the Bible excludes women as spiritual leaders. Well, Hallelujah! You fellas can just take over. Hey gals, No more leading out in Sabbath School, Church Boards, Child Evangelism in the Church,and don"t forget keeping up the Church as in cleaning the jons and cooking the fellowship meals. Now us women can spend alot more time at "Macys". Wa hoo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 17, 2011 Administrators Share Posted October 17, 2011 Oh yes, it is very Biblical. It does not come from any secular source. It was how God ordained it to be in Eden. Jesus, confirmed it when asked about marriage and divorce. And Paul affirms it as well. Read Genesis 1:26-29, 2:24. God charged them, that would be both of them together, to have dominion over all the earth. And He said they shall be one flesh. THat was how it was in Eden. The subjugation curse was pronounced when they were thrown out of Eden. Jesus reiterated that idea of God's ideal as oneness between man and woman as God's original plan. And Jesus came and died to overcome sin totally and restore things back to the way God had originally designed things. Paul affirms that Christ accomplished this by saying that all are one in Christ. That unity of man and woman was broken when Adam turned against her and blamed her not just for his own sin, but for their sin that they committed together. The natural consequences of a broken unity and trust is that the two are at odds. It takes a lot to restore broken trust. Inevitably one person takes a superior role the other an inferior role. That is the consequence of sin. If you believe in the power of complete restoration through Christ from the consequences of sin, it should include a sense of equal standing amongst all people, including men and women. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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