Can the Remnant Church Fail?

[Guest]

There are sins of commission and sins of omission. Let’s pray for a revival and reformation to take place which will include the proper respect for human life.

Amen!

[ClubV12]

Gibs says,

"This all depends on what you see the Remnant Church to be...."

God has not left us to guess at who comprises His remnant church. It's an issue of considerable importance and in no way should the definition be missed.

"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat." Manuscript Releases, Volume 12, 324

When Ellen White, the Lords messenger, an inspired prophet, the same one God raised up to establish His church on earth for these end times, makes referrence to the "church" she is specifically referrencing and clearly calling out to all who will listen, the ORGANIZED, sanctioned, official, "visible church", the SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST church and those who are members therein.

Rejecting this church, fighting against it, is to reject and fight against the very throne of God, Gibs... THIS is the church that the gates of hell will not prevail against. Some have already been shaken out, many others will follow, but the church will remain.

[Dr. Waite]

And what was the original like? What did it teach?

Doctor:

You need to read everything written in the Bible about Jesus Christ and study every thing he taught. He is the way, the truth, and the life. He is the faithful and true witness.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

You ask, "What is your definition of the remnant church today, right now, Gibs?"

It's a piece of the first that the gates of Hell have not prevailed against it.

All the rest the gates of hell have. "ekklesia" is the called out ones, the church established on Himself the Rock of ages. That is the Remnant and can be no other. It is a smaller piece of that first one. Smaller? Yes percentage wise of the peoples. Yes Jesus said,

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The structures of men they call "church" is just that a structure of their cobbling and is not the one that will not fall into error and false teaching as their head is Jesus Christ the Rock and the members of His Body are rooted in Him the Rock the Truth the Way and the Life.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

It must be always looking past all who set themselves up to be leaders and teachers to the PREEMINENT one who is the Head of the Body.

And so it will ever be that the Remnant is a piece of the first exactly.

They must be the overcomers and come outers as he keeps calling.

Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Why don't you post the rest of the passage to put it in context?

Rev 18:1 After these things, I saw another angel coming down from heaven. He had great authority, the earth was lit up by his splendor. 2 He cried out in a strong voice, "She has fallen! She has fallen! Bavel the Great! She has become a home for demons, a prison for every unclean spirit, a prison for every unclean, hated bird. 3 "For all the nations have drunk of the wine of God's fury caused by her whoring - yes, the kings of the earth went whoring with her, and from her unrestrained love of luxury the world's businessmen have grown rich." 4 Then I heard another voice out of heaven say: "My people, come out of her! so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not be infected by her plagues, 5 for her sins are a sticky mass piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes. 6 "Render to her as she rendered to others! Pay her back double for what she has done! Use the cup in which she has brewed to brew her a double-sized drink! 7 "Give her as much torment and sorrow as the glory and luxury she gave herself! For in her heart she says, 'I sit a queen - I am not a widow, I will never see sorrow.' 8 "Therefore, her plagues will come in a single day - death, sorrow and famine; and she will be burned with fire, because ADONAI, God, her Judge, is mighty" 9 The kings of the earth who went whoring with her and shared her luxury will sob and wail over her when they see the smoke as she burns. 10 Standing at a distance, for fear of her torment, they will say, "Oh no! The great city! Bavel, the mighty city! In a single hour your judgment has come!" 11 The world's businessmen weep and mourn over her, because no one is buying their merchandise any more - 12 stocks of gold and silver, gems and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, all rare woods, all ivory goods, all kinds of things made of scented wood, brass, iron and marble; 13 cinnamon, cardamom, incense, myrrh, frankincense, wine, oil, flour, grain, cattle, sheep, horses, chariots - and bodies - and people's souls. 14 The fruits you lusted for with all your heart have gone! All the luxury and flashiness have been destroyed, never to return! 15 The sellers of these things, who got rich from her, will stand at a distance, for fear of her torment, weeping and mourning, 16 and saying, "Oh no! The great city used to wear fine linen, purple and scarlet! She glittered with gold, precious stones and pearls! 17 Such great wealth - in a single hour, ruined!" All the ship masters, passengers, sailors and everyone making his living from the sea stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke as she burned, "What city was like the great city?" 19 And they threw dust on their heads as they wept and mourned, saying, "Oh no! The great city! The abundance of her wealth made all the ship owners rich! In a single hour she is ruined!" 20 Rejoice over her, heaven! Rejoice, people of God, emissaries and prophets! For in judging her, God has vindicated you. 21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a great millstone, and hurled it into the sea, saying, "With violence like this will the great city Bavel be hurled down, never to be found again! 22 "The sound of harpists and musicians, flute-players and trumpeters will never again be heard in you. No worker of any trade will ever again be found in you, the sound of a mill will never again be heard in you, 23 the light of a lamp will never again shine in you, the voice of bridegroom and bride will never again be heard in you. "For your businessmen were the most powerful on earth, all the nations were deceived by your magic spell. 24 "In her was found the blood of prophets and of God's people, indeed, of all who have ever been slaughtered on earth!"

To show that he is calling out his people, to come into the remnant Church, not out of the Church and into Babylon? Its easy to pull something out of context and make it read or spin it to what you want it to say!!

[Gibs]

pkrause,

I guess I'm one who likes to keep it concise. I never was a prolific writer or explainer and I wish I were. I need to be in a lot of cases I see afterward that more explantion should have been given..

But too some weary one so bad by being too prolific you don't stay with it all. There is a happy in between hard sometimes to realize just how much.

When I get done preaching a question and answer session is needed frequently.

The extra you posted changed nothing from what I posted as the Remnant church is still what I posted.

I didn't find it easy to realize either but the truth remains unchanged.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs you not only take the verses of Revelation out of context, you do the same with Ellen White referrences calling a people out.

Out of what? Out of Babylon, not the Seventh-day Adventist church. This is a profound and serious mistake scattering the people of Gods remnant church.

RLH, Ellen White is VERY CLEAR what she calls and considers the "church", she is specifically referring to what she calls the "visible church", the organized church, the Adventist church. The letter in which she says "the church will not fall" was written to the LEADERS of the Seventh-day Adventist church at that time. To encourage them to stand fast. Sister White wanted to deliver this same message personally to every Adventist church, of course that would be impossible.

Gib's, and others who oppose the organized Seventh-day Adventist church typically use the same verses and Ellen White quotes to support their case. ALWAYS in part, NEVER in the whole context, as phk did with Revelation. Reading that entire section of Revelation it becomes clear it is NOT referring to God's church on earth, the Seventh-day Adventist church. It is referring to Babylon, predominantely the Sunday keeping churches, it is to THOSE churches and peoples the Seventh-day Adventists have a message for!

It is easy to confuse the concept of salvation being an individual matter with the idea that you don't need your name on the books. It is a serious thing to leave the church, remove your name from the books, fight against it and setup your own church in it's place. Every off shoot group out there thinks they have the truth and the Seventh-day Adventist church has fallen. Every off shoot out there says it doesn't matter if your name is on the Adventist church rolls. FRANKLY IT DOES MATTER. The church, the organized church, DOES carry authority from God. Ignore it, fight against, despise it, remove your name from it and your at war with the throne of God.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

You got it wrong as her last years she saw the church in a different light. She actually had become somewhat discouraged. Some of her statements are now not on the new disc or I would paste some here, It doesn't matter though if you were not asleep you could see it. The gates of hell have prevailed against it but there is one that the gates of hell will not prevail against and it is no corrupt denomination that has brought in all kinds of things and I have listed some before and am done listing them over and over.

The True church needs none of the things that have come in and check out the last two, Emerging Church and Lectio Divina. Now them are just wonderful to you I suppose, but not to one who has seen purer days in the denominaton.

Denominational churches are all structures of men always uneeded. It has been a mistake applying a name to a reform movement and giving it a name and calling it His Church, His Church has never ceased to exist don't you know yet. It was merely "ekklesia" or The Called Out. That call has been continuous since then.

If the denomination rescinded on the Sabbath would you finally see it has not kept back the gates of hell. That may just happen, we will soon see.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

"Emerging Church and Lectio Divina. Now them are just wonderful to you I suppose,..."

It's not about ME Gibs, you have to stop looking at people. It should not matter to you what I believe. Or what anybody else IN the church believes. You've become consumed with looking at people and judging them. It's become like a cancer to your soul. We each have a responsibility to uphold the truth, support the church and encourage the brethren.

Instead, some find it to difficult to lead a spiritual life when surrounded by temptation and folks that don't treat them with the respect their ego demands. They loose their courage, become afraid, they want to hide from temptation out of fear. Like cowards, they slip out the back door and hide in their home.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

It's not about me either, but is about what is the church? I am not looking at people, I'm looking at the problems that have come into the structure many choose to call His church. His Church don't have a denominational name, never did and never will.

Whom will you follow is the question each should ask themselves. I'll follow Him who is the head of His church, the, "the called out ones".

If Adventism would rescind all the errors that have come in, in the last 50 years even then I would again go through her doors. I would support the truth as it is given by Him and His word. Though that don't mean I would have a need to have my name on the denominations books. Is our name written on the book that counts,

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Today as it stands I can only uphold the SDA church structure in that it is still with the Holy Sabbath. At least that is still advocated widely to my knowledge.

All I'm asking all is to take a good look into this for yourselves, you may be surprised what you find.

There is an unpublished letter, The Will Ross Letter, but since it isn't koshered by Adventism most will not receive it. It was a vision she gave to a few on the depot platform at Loma Linda if my memory is correct and I believe it has been fulfilled now many years in the past. She stated the Adventists all rose like a great flock of sheep and chose leaders from amongest them. That was when all the dissenting ministries and home churchs broke out. Many of those ministries had truly ordained of God teachers, I can tell you that. The same happened in Christ's day and Christ was among them as the Jewish structure had become so corrupt.

That is when Church was established on Him, "the called out ones". That one will not fail, it follows Him and no other false leaders and teachings.

I may post the Will Ross Letter but at the present I am pretty weary.

Anyway I pray His Blessing on all who Truly Love Him and search diligently for His True Way.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gib's surely you are aware of how the name "Seventh-day Adventist" came about? Surely you know that was divine revelation, not the devising of man.

How can you possibly say the denomination "never had a name"? Such a statement is in direct opposition to what Sister White has to say on the matter. Do you believe she was an inspired messenger of the Lord? Or do you, like Miz3, think she was only partly inspired and we are free to pick and choose which parts we like?

[ClubV12]

Gibs, here is the STRAIGHT TESTIMONY from the prophet herself, concerning those who declare the church to be Babylon:

"Again I say, The Lord hath not spoken by any messenger who calls the church that keeps the commandments of God, Babylon. True, there are tares with the wheat; but Christ said He would send His angels to first gather the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into the garner. I know that the Lord loves His church. It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms. There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be. Those who shall heed this false message and try to leaven others will be deceived and prepared to receive advanced delusions, and they will come to nought."

Selected Messages, Book 2, pg 68

The Will Ross letter was NOT written, recorded, commented on or verified as true by Sister White, the Ellen G. White Estate or by any official body of the Adventist church. It's been around for decades and is, of course, a favorite LIE of "off shoots", fanatics and others who openly oppose the organized church. If you post that garbage on THIS web site I will surely be right there to comment on it and publish the TRUTH about those letters.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

I haven't called her babylon yet but it is getting close to where it can be realized and many very believe she has fallen back into her.

It don't matter to me whether you regard a testimony fulfilled given to her that she couldn't give to the church, you see the proof is in the pudding, it happened.

Yes the Lord Jesus Christ Loves His True Church, "the called out" and the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against it.

Follow Him the true leader of His Church and you will be safe, I would guarantee that but cannot guarantee if loyal to any denomintional churches that are ALL of the world.

I choose to be loyal to Him and Him only and follow no man or men.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gib's the word of the Lord is plain, to be loyal to Him is to support His church and while doing so, to follow Him. As Paul did, as the pioneers of this movement did, as feeble and defective as it is, the church will endure. I trust God when He says He will purify the church, on His schedule not ours. I will wait upon Him.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Paul no longer was a part of the old apostate system after his encounter on the road to Damascus, he became one of the "called out ones". You see the Lord continually purifies His Church by calling them out of error and apostasy to follow him instead of occultic teachings that men fall into for power like king Saul going to the witch of endor.

On the first disc of EGW's writings there were several readings stronger than this one I found on the present one.

"God has revealed many things to me which He has bidden me give to His people by pen and voice. Through this message of the Holy Spirit, God's people are given sacred instruction concerning their duty to God and to their fellow-men.

A strange things has come into our churches. Men who are placed in positions of responsibility that they might be wise helpers, to their fellow workers, have come to suppose that they were set as kings and rulers in the churches, to say to one brother, Do this, to another, Do that, and to another, Be sure and labor in such and such a way. There have been places where workers have been told that if they did not follow the instruction of these men of responsibility, their pay from the conference would be withheld.

It is right for the workers to counsel together as brethren; but that man who endeavors to lead his fellow-workers to seek his counsel and advice regarding the details of their work, and to learn their duty from him, is in a dangerous position, and needs to learn what responsibilities are really comprehended in his office. God has appointed no man to be conscience for his fellow-man, and it is not wise to lay so much responsibility upon an officer that he will feel that he is forced to become a dictator.

A Constant Peril

For years there has been a growing tendency for men placed in positions of responsibility to lord it over God's heritage, thus removing from church members their keen sense of the need of divine instruction and an appreciation of the privilege to counsel with God regarding their duty. This order of things may be changed. There must be a reform. Men who have not a rich measure of that wisdom which cometh from above, should not be called to serve in positions where their influence means so much to church members.

In my earlier experience in the message I was called to meet this evil. During my labors in Europe and Australia, and again at the San Jose campmeeting I had to bear my testimony of warning against it, because souls were being taught to look to man for wisdom, instead of looking to God who is our wisdom, our sanctification, and our righteousness. Recently the same message has again been given me, more definite and decisive, because there has been a deeper offense to the Spirit of God. {LLM 230.1}

The same has now been going on for years, all these teachings of Super NLP, Lab 1,2,3 and more in between those and now, Theistic Evolution, Emerging Church, Spiritual Formation, Mentoring, Spiritual Exercises and Lectio Divina.

You all must know where those things come from, not of God I assure you. Ted is seeing it to some extent and would like to do something about it but EGW couldn't stem the tide back then and now it is far greater with far greater momentom than then. All need to pray for Ted and let him know you are with him and want a thorough house cleaning with few of the top men left. Can it happen? It would be a miracle and the worst upset of a church structure in history.

All with stamina and any influence should step up with all you can muster to right it.

This if it happens would be the second go around as we did now quite a few yrs. ago that many of you today know little of. It was bitter and the heirarchy could not be unseated.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

It's good counsel from the Lords messenger. I certainly don't see it as a call to leave the church! Such a negative attitude Gibs, how did that happen to you?

"Super NLP, Lab 1,2,3 and more in between those and now, Theistic Evolution, Emerging Church, Spiritual Formation, Mentoring, Spiritual Exercises and Lectio Divina."

You need to follow Sisters White advice you just quoted, quit looking in the garbage pile and seeing the trash, quit looking to man and start looking to Jesus for the truth. You spend SO much of your time condeming and pointing fingers and accusing the brethren you've lost sight of the truth.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

That garbage pile you call it, and rightly, has come into the structure, kick it out or well do the next best thing, you dare not partake of it and it's in your face, can't you see it and hear it and discern it? Who is that stuff of and who is allowing it to come in and get in the teaching and worship. We cannot serve two masters.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[rawprawn]

"Can the Remnant Church of God fail in its divinely appointed mission to a perishing world?" I guess we will have to wait and see what the remnant church does. The last church may not even be an organized church. Who knows until the end actaully gets here. See a remnant is not a remnant until we actaully get to the end of the role. No one will know what the remnant church was until it is history.

[Gibs]

rawprawn,

It may true what you say in a way but I do know this, a remnant is always but a small piece of the original. That I see what it is coming down to. His Church began with the "called out ones", ekklesia is the original name. So it looks to me it is the small percentage that will heed the call and come out. The gates of hell have never prevailed against those described, they will not imbibe error. Thats what His Body, Church, ekklesia is, those that stick with Him and Him only.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

We know for a certainty that the church in the very last days of this Great Controversy will be comprised off those hiding in the mountains and caves. Those who have fled not only the cities but the small towns and are facing a death decree. Primitive Godliness, no organization, no home churches. Small groups, or just a single individual here and there. Families separated, Christians in prison, Christians being killed for their faith. Adventists, neighbors, friends turning them in and revealing their hiding places to the authorities.

One question: Are we there yet? DON'T run ahead of the Lord!

We also know this scenario will happen in stages. First there will be a "shaking" where many of our "bright lights" (leaders, Pastors, well respected people in the church) will go out. As the issue of buying and selling will become very serious more and more folks will be brought to this final test. Some churches will be completely empty, many others with only a few remaining faithful. The loud cry will go forth, NOT to "Adventists" but to the world. Many new converts will come in, to the PHYSICAL CHURCH, they will sit in the very pews abandoned by those who have left. Those who have left will ALSO INCLUDE those who are leaving NOW and have been leaving since Ellen Whites time. Many have will decided, have already decided, been deciding since 1844 that the church is in apostasy and they must leave as a result. This is a delusion!!! Under no circumstances has anyone been "called" to leave the church, not since Ellen Whites time and not now. Those who have left, those who will leave, as spiritual as they may appear, have bound themselves in bundles to be burned.

As backward and ineffecient as the church may appear to be, it will remain the single object of God's supreme regard. The matter is in His hands, our calling is to support it, to be that single light within it's hallowed halls. To wait upon the Lord and prepare to meet and greet those who WILL COME IN to replace those who have been shaken out.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Many in different church structures are so sure theirs is the only one that is it so you are not alone. Since your loyalty is so strong that the SDA structure is it, I think I would if I were you get at it and go after the error that has come in and demand throwing out the false practices and get with the straight testimony of Salvation.

I fully believe one Baptised of the Holy Spirit are the ones the Divine Nature is in. It looks to me like then these see no problem with being overcomers in all points as He expects and brings to you. He will bring them all to you, but not all of them at once. That is Pauls "Christ in you the hope of glory".

Anyway you can know I want to see complete reform come into SDAdventism and that is why I am on this subject and posted the letter I did to arouse if possible a few more to action.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

To arouse a possible few is all we can reasonably expect, the preaching and teaching goes to all because we don't know who the few are. The Adventist church is MY calling, the Lord has many sheep not of this fold. I was "called out" of the Mormon church myself.

[12tribes]

The movement that came out of Egypt went through to the promised land so the movement that began in 1844 will go through. While all the people may not as in the movement that came out of Egypt but the movement will go through

[Gibs]

Can the Remnant Church fall? That was the question.

Now any structure claiming to be the remnant proves it is not when it is taken over with errors that will not be weeded out.. When it's leadership introduces false practices and false theology and the members take it up and but few in it can see any wrong in it and can't move any and especially in the leadership it is not the remnant. It don't matter what name they apply to the structure it is proven to have fallen to the gates of hell.

The only one that has not and will not fall is the Ekklesia,"the called out ones". The reason being is they are the ones not bribed to imbibe error or false practices. They are the few who follow only the Lord Jesus Christ and His Word.

This movement that will not be prevailed against by the gates of hell was set up by Jesus Himself who set it up and established it. He built it upon Himself, the Rock and it's members make up His Spiritual Body, His Bride. The overcomers are also the come outers, the called out ones. That is the name of the Remnant Church, Ekklesia, the called out ones. This one is built upon the Rock is why it cannot fall. It is not built upon sinking sand, the structures set up of men.

Satan knows where and how to take over and lead into error and false practices and it is not with any in the pews, it is laid by Satan into the leadership to bring in very inconspicuously of which Satan is a super master at over the best of men.

This is always how corruption has always come in and so Jesus set up the only way of escape, He established His Ekklesia, Church, the overcomers and the come outers. Not an easy thing to do but His follow only Him and must heed His call.

We don't need a building to meet in as we worship Him in Spirit and Truth as He says we must do.

Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Dr. Rich]

Gibs, you mentioned the "called out" group, which I would agree with as being the 144,000 (first fruits), but can you then tell me who the other two groups are as found in Rev. 17:14?