Can the Remnant Church Fail?

[Dr. Rich]

ClubV12,

Many in different church structures are so sure theirs is the only one that is it so you are not alone. Since your loyalty is so strong that the SDA structure is it, I think I would if I were you get at it and go after the error that has come in and demand throwing out the false practices and get with the straight testimony of Salvation.

I fully believe one Baptised of the Holy Spirit are the ones the Divine Nature is in. It looks to me like then these see no problem with being overcomers in all points as He expects and brings to you. He will bring them all to you, but not all of them at once. That is Pauls "Christ in you the hope of glory".

Anyway you can know I want to see complete reform come into SDAdventism and that is why I am on this subject and posted the letter I did to arouse if possible a few more to action.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Gibs, what you wrote is directly against what Jesus said as found in Matthew 13:27-30. Tell me please, what is the difference between a wheat and a weed? Remember that NO ONE could tell the difference for over 2000 years when you come to your answer.

[Gibs]

He will have His angels gather together the tares for the burning and the wheat He saves.

Mt 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

He only is the discerner of that. None of us know who are truly His. We all though must be about keeping a straight testimony out to the peoples from the ones who have set themselves up to teach or whether He has ordained them is the question. Each of us must determine for ourself whether the teacher is of God or of himself and weaves in error. When he does that it increases the harvest of tares as more tare seed is sowed the more tares you get and less wheat.

The great trouble in the structures called churches today is that too many are not ordained of God but of men who are sowers of tares. The wheat field becomes mostly weeds very quickly and chokes out the wheat. The wheat after a while have no voice.

So it was revealed here,

Mt 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mt 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

The church structures are sleeping under "Aspartame sweet lullabies" and so now the tares have become thick. Who and how many, I do not know, but I do know you get what has been sown.

Unity in the Truth and Jesus Christ and by His Spirit dwelling within can only bring true Christian Unity and a bountiful harvest.

But it has become as noted it would,

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

"The World's Greatest Need.--The greatest want of the world is the want of men,--men who will not be bought or sold; men who in their inmost souls are true and honest; men who do not fear to call sin by its right name; men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole; men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall".--Education, p. 57. (1903) {CM 54.4} by EGW

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

ClubV12 wrote:

"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat." Manuscript Releases, Volume 12, 324

The same promises made to the Adventist Church were made to the Israel of Old and those who crucified Jesus were sure that God would never abandon the Jewish race he had chosen. The Lord promised a glorious future for the Jews and for the city of Jerusalem. What happened? Why did God eventually reject the chosen nation?

As humans, we are prone to remember God’s promises, but quite often forget the conditions set for those promises. We like to emphasize the glorious future promised to God’s people, forgetting that all those promises are contingent on human response.

"Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: 'I promised that your house and your father's house would minister before me forever.' But now the LORD declares: 'Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained. [1 Sam. 2:30]

“But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional.” {Mar 61.1}

“God's favor toward Israel had always been conditional on their obedience.” {PK 293.1}

“We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree; and ministers who are handling sacred things are guilty of sin in this respect. They are coveting their neighbors' wives, and the seventh commandment is broken. We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil?” {TSB 188.3}

Can God’s Remnant Church fail? I believe it can! Will it fail? I hope not! We must work and pray for a revival to take place. We should not tolerate the status quo. As a church we need to repent of our past sins and ask the Lord for forgiveness. Our church did compromise on the issue of abortion. This is a grievous sin in the eyes of God. We need to get out of the abortion business!

“THIS is the church that the gates of hell will not prevail against. Some have already been shaken out, many others will follow, but the church will remain.”

If God rejected his chosen nation, he will likewise reject his chosen Remnant Church if we do not repent of the great sin of abortion. This is my view and it is firmly based on the Bible and on the inspired writings of Ellen White.

[Nic Samojluk]

ClubV12 wrote:

“Reading that entire section of Revelation it becomes clear it is NOT referring to God's church on earth, the Seventh-day Adventist church. It is referring to Babylon, predominantly the Sunday keeping churches, it is to THOSE churches and peoples the Seventh-day Adventists have a message for!”

True! Nevertheless, Ellen White did say that the Adventist Church was in danger of becoming a “sister to Babylon.” Those are strong words, especially if we consider the fact that she was writing almost a century before the Adventist Church allowed some of its hospitals to offer abortions on demand. Our church needs to repent of this great sin against the Creator!

[Guest]

ClubV12 wrote:

“Reading that entire section of Revelation it becomes clear it is NOT referring to God's church on earth, the Seventh-day Adventist church. It is referring to Babylon, predominantly the Sunday keeping churches, it is to THOSE churches and peoples the Seventh-day Adventists have a message for!”

True! Nevertheless, Ellen White did say that the Adventist Church was in danger of becoming a “sister to Babylon.” Those are strong words, especially if we consider the fact that she was writing almost a century before the Adventist Church allowed some of its hospitals to offer abortions on demand. Our church needs to repent of this great sin against the Creator!

Not to mention the "spiritual formation" and other errors that are coming in so rapidly.

[Guest]

ClubV12 wrote:

"The church may appear as about to fall, but it does not fall. It remains, while the sinners in Zion will be sifted out--the chaff separated from the precious wheat." Manuscript Releases, Volume 12, 324

The same promises made to the Adventist Church were made to the Israel of Old and those who crucified Jesus were sure that God would never abandon the Jewish race he had chosen. The Lord promised a glorious future for the Jews and for the city of Jerusalem. What happened? Why did God eventually reject the chosen nation?

As humans, we are prone to remember God’s promises, but quite often forget the conditions set for those promises. We like to emphasize the glorious future promised to God’s people, forgetting that all those promises are contingent on human response.

That's exactly right Nic.

[Gibs]

Nic and all considering this,

You are so right and all should see it and get behind the ones in leadership as they are almost alone at the top.

Here is EGW's testimony to an Elder H but is applicable to all,

"Cleansing of the Camp." "We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree; and ministers who are handling sacred things are guilty of sin in this respect. They are coveting their neighbors' wives, and the seventh commandment is broken. We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? {TSB 188.3}

Will you have others follow your example? Will you wish them to pass over the ground you have traveled, and feel that they have done no great wrong? Without repentance and conversion, you are a ruined man." {TSB 188.4}

Repentance and conversion today? Is it required? What has come in to replace the true faith? Presumption!

Can the church fall back? Same as any individual as individuals make up the church.

2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Naomi]

[ClubV12]

Sister White is clear on this subject, there is no if's, no and's, no butt's, no conditions. The Lord worked with the Jewish Nation for thousands of years before their cup of iniguity was full. We see that over and over again in the bible with many other nations as well. The Lord is slow to anger.

Only a fool would misinterpret the plain words of the Lords messenger on the subject of a falling church in these end times.

"It WILL APPEAR as about to fall." But it does not fall.

Every time someone suggests some reason as to WHY the Seventh-day Adventist body of believers "has" fallen (Brother Gibs) or COULD fall (many other Brothers and Sisters on this forum) or WILL fall they fulfill and become a part of the above prophecy. So feel free to continue with all your "excuses" and "reasons" about the falling of the Adventist church, those who hear Gods true voice as spoken through His true messenger will also see the fulfillment of that promise. It will NOT, has NOT, WILL NOT, fail. Those who have left thinking it has fallen have come under a strong delusion from the Lord that they might believe a lie.

Sigh and cry for the sins of the church, as feeble and defective as it is, it remains and will always remain until His return the single object of His supreme attention. The word of the Lord is sure, the prophecy will not lie.

Brother Gibs, the above Sister White quote you posted speaks of sin within the camp. Sin, like people who have LFET THE CAMP and then call others to do the same. The quote in no way states the church will fall. It is a gross misrepresentation to suggest it does.

[Gibs]

"The proof is in the pudding".

2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.

Bro. Gibs would come back if all the incoming errors were rescinded like "Theistic Evolution" was. But it looks pretty bleak to me that it will ever happen. There are now too many that are not serious but the newer ones in her don't see it and can't unless more bring out to them what has happened.

I assure you I am watching working and hoping and praying for it to happen but among men I am one of the very few, sad to say and realize. The church is the people and we just need people who will stand up and be counted on the truth of this matter. So many of you who do see it fight against me rather than help the others to see the errors that have come in.

We are to be a separate people! How are we anymore? The Sabbath? Many now are turning now to keep the Sabbath but not being a SDA. Why? I hear many explain why. It's the "new age theology" mainly that is seen to be wrong. Many are now turning to solid following Jesus Christ in truth now. Good to see but when you look around it is the very minority that are not taken in by Satan's sophistries, lies.

My cry is, Awake, Awake before it is Too Late!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

You do know Gibs, it is a hall mark of many who oppose an organization, a church, to proclaim loudly and long about how they are "persecuted" for their faith. David Koresh employed the same technigue, it becomes rather meaningless when it is applied by those preaching a negative gospel.

Yes indeed, it sure looks pretty bleak for the church, what with all this new theology and "bad people" everywhere you look. It sure looks like the church is about to fall, doesn't it,,,, Gib's? And yet the promise is sure, the Lord has spoken through His messenger of these end times, the church will not fall. Thanks for being a part of the fulfillment of prophecy that says it will "look" like it.

My cry to YOU is, "Awake, it is not yet to late." Sadly, Sister White's counsel reveals that is very rare for those who have left the path to find their way back.

[Gibs]

Club12,

I would like to come back and have a good fellowship with true believers and I would do it in a New York minute but I cannot until it returns to the old paths. I am still in as a spiritual member of His Spiritual Body as are many with me. I must follow Him as He shows me His Way and He has made that clear to me and I'm not alone among men either but wouldn't be if there was no other man.

Watching and longing.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Here is the difference Gibs. Though the church kick me out, for whatever reason, I would continue to support them in every way I could. I would not allow myself to become bitter, because I KNOW that in the end, that group, God's people, WILL go through to the end.

Even if for some reason I had to leave the organized church, I would continue to support them in every way I could. I would encourage others to stay and fight the good fight for those still in the organized church.

Because I KNOW who the church really is and what it isn't. It is the organized, sanctioned, legal body of believers here on earth known as Seventh-day Adventists. Whose leadership, when in formal session and made up of various representatives from around the world are the highest authority on earth. What is bound by them on earth, is bound in heaven. They are THEE channel through whom God will work to deliver the last message to mankind.

The church is NOT some small group here or there meeting independantly and charting their own path while proclaiming Gods true church has fallen. Such groups have been overcome by a strong delusion sent to them by the Lord. They might claim to work miracles in His name, but He knows them not.

[phkrause]

Here is the difference Gibs. Though the church kick me out, for whatever reason, I would continue to support them in every way I could. I would not allow myself to become bitter, because I KNOW that in the end, that group, God's people, WILL go through to the end.

Even if for some reason I had to leave the organized church, I would continue to support them in every way I could. I would encourage others to stay and fight the good fight for those still in the organized church.

Because I KNOW who the church really is and what it isn't. It is the organized, sanctioned, legal body of believers here on earth known as Seventh-day Adventists. Whose leadership, when in formal session and made up of various representatives from around the world are the highest authority on earth. What is bound by them on earth, is bound in heaven. They are THEE channel through whom God will work to deliver the last message to mankind.

The church is NOT some small group here or there meeting independantly and charting their own path while proclaiming Gods true church has fallen. Such groups have been overcome by a strong delusion sent to them by the Lord. They might claim to work miracles in His name, but He knows them not.

[Gibs]

You have me wrong, I am not bitter toward any or the so called church. I only point out the reasons that she is taking up wrong paths of teaching. No denomination by name is the church to begin with. The Church has some yet in each of the denominations and those some I find are discenting of the errors.

No none of the discenting ones are 100% perfect. I was hearing a fellow by the name Bob Martin on Shortwave last night and the man is a Sunday keeper yet but by his straight testimony he may just reform on that. I haven't heard straigher preaching in years and was elated to hear him. I am going to make a point to find out more about him. I can tell you this, if he continues as he did last night, I would like to see him pastoring in a SDA church. Bob Martin is a strong discenter. Rightfully so as the errors are thick and rampant in all denominations. The SDA denomination isn't too far behind I am telling all now!

I know some the church has kicked out and they had no right. Then they push the idea if you are out you have lost salvation. Baloney! Our salvation is through and by Jesus Christ only. What happens is, when you show them they are wrong on a point they kick one out rather than rescind.

Everyone almost has it wrong as to what is Jesus Christ's Church. We must go where we find the following is the closest to following Him and not the dictates of men. What was the original Church called established on Himself the Rock? Ekklesia, and that was it's name and is still it's name. He hasn't changed His Church's name. Ekklesia, Church, means called out ones to following Him and Him Only. That cannot be changed as He never changes or ever will, that's why you can trust Him.

Men establish ones of their own with a different name and most today are in them and followers of them and fight like tigers to uphold that, that one is the true one and it is not.

I am just telling you I am still in His Church upholding His Church and will God help me till the day I die. I advocate walk in the old paths He has Laid for our feet. He wrote it out for us, He made it plain, it's writen on a 5'th grade level to us, the KJV Bible.

Yes we are a separate people and always must be. We are in the world of necessity but not of the world, and cannot be of it, of Him and Him only and fully.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

You speak of sheep that are not of this fold, His people in other denominations, they are not yet a part of His chosen people, His church on earth. That does not mean they don't qualify for salvation. Just because you were a Jew in the time of Israel didn't mean you were automatically granted salvation. But the Jewish Nation WAS God's chosen people, His church on earth. Though it was corrupt, feeble, backwards and short sighted, God loved His chosen people. He stayed with them for thousands of years, until their cup was full and their choice at last made clear. It is the same today, He has a chosen people, a specific body of believers. The difference is, where the Jewish Nation failed (AFTER 1,000's of years) we know the current chosen people will survive to see the 2nd coming. Those wonderful Sunday keeping souls that God loves will join them, should they survive on this earth long enough. Those small groups here and there acting independant from the body will join the Sunday keepers or join the church, there is no middle ground in the last days of earths history.

[Nic Samojluk]

ClubV12 wrote:

“And yet the promise is sure, the Lord has spoken through His messenger of these end times, the church will not fall.”

It is not wise to base a doctrine on a single quotation. We need to remember that Ellen White did also state the following:

“But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional.” {Mar 61.1}

“God's favor toward Israel had always been conditional on their obedience.” {PK 293.1}

Have we learned anything from the story of Jonah? The prediction was crystal clear without any contingencies. The city of Nineveh would be destroyed in 40 days! Said prediction failed and the prophet wanted to die. He would be viewed as a false prophet. Why did this prediction fail to materialize? The people repented. This confirms Ellen White’s statement that God’s promises and threatening are conditional. They are contingent on human response. Now look at another clear promise made by the Lord himself which failed to materialize:

"Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: 'I promised that your house and your father's house would minister before me forever.' But now the LORD declares: 'Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.” [1 Sam. 2:30]

We can add more to all this. In the Old Testament we find glorious promises to the chosen nation of Israel of old which were never fulfilled. They were contingent on human response. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was also promised by the Angel Gabriel that her son would sit on David’s throne forever. Was this prediction fulfilled? Why not?

I prefer not to be so sure about the promise made to the Remnant Church. Our church compromised on the issue of abortions on demand. Our hospitals were allowed to offer elective abortions with impunity, and some of them took advantage of this liberal policy which made the Sixth Commandment of the Decalogue of no effect. Will God overlook this duplicity akin to the behavior of Pilate who testified that Jesus was innocent, yet allowed his enemies to kill him?

[Nic Samojluk]

ClubV12 wrote:

“Whose leadership, when in formal session and made up of various representatives from around the world are the highest authority on earth. What is bound by them on earth, is bound in heaven. They are THEE channel through whom God will work to deliver the last message to mankind.”

If your argument is true, then we should return to the Catholic Church. Rome uses the same argument to demonstrate that in spite of all the failures of the church, the gates of hell will not prevail against her.

Read mo previous comment I posted a few minutes ago.

[Nic Samojluk]

ClubV12 wrote:

“The difference is, where the Jewish Nation failed (AFTER 1,000's of years) we know the current chosen people will survive to see the 2nd coming.”

You are forgetting that Ellen White did remind us that God’s promises and his threatening were conditional. This means contingent on human response. I did explain this in a previous posting of mine. Our church has compromised on the Sixth Commandment which forbids the shedding of innocent blood. We need to repent of this great evil if we want to remain as God’s Remnant until the end. If not, the Lord will spew us out of his mouth.

[ClubV12]

The evidence, the counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy leaves us with no doubt as to the end times and no doubt the organized church will go through to the end.

The common and typical example of the failure of the Jewish people (AFTER THOUSANDS OF YEARS) is misplaced and clearly contradicts the plain message of the prophet. Who declares, the church WILL go through to the end of time. Why is that so hard for folks to grasp? The only question here is: Will YOU, Nic, be a part of it or not?

Of course promises are conditional, the Jewish Nation while still God's chosen people, suffered enormously over the centuries during times of rebellion. Just as Gods church in these end times will go through a terrible ordeal, a "shaking". It will be terrible, it will be devastating, it will appear as the church is about to fall.

For those who cherish doubt and continualy point to the possibility the church COULD fall, are setting themselves up to believe a lie. When it appears the church will fall, they will say it HAS fallen and they will be among those "shaken out". They will continue on under the delusion they are working for the Lord. We see this happening many times over. Splits, off shoots, fanatics, claiming the church has fallen or will fall. It's been happening since 1850, continues today. And yet the CHURCH IS STILL HERE.

Nic, this "argument" that the General Conference, when in session, is the highest authority on earth is not MY "agrument", I am simply repeating the counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy. If you don't believe the counsel and think the G.C. is somehow a Roman Catholic setup, thats a delusion you will have to work out with the Lord. I can't help you.

[ClubV12]

Many people have many different excuses that seem to be valid to them and justify their position of fighting against the church or the Spirit of Prophecy.

Gibs see's all kinds of false doctrine in the church and then concludes the church has fallen. Thats one excuse.

Nic see's abortion as a serious issue the church is neglecting and thus determines the church will surely fall if it doesn't change. Change to HIS thinking, the way HE see's it, everyone must follow HIS doctrine or all hope is lost. A touch of ego in that doctrine Nic?

Others see the Spirit of Prophecy as a sure sign the church will fall, because they have ignored the greater light, the bible.

Some are offended by other members and taking their eyes of Jesus, see only the thorns. So they leave, to start their own "pure church".

There are an endless variety of "excuses" to leave the church. What good excuse will you use to find your way out from the Lords chosen people?

[Woody]

Quote:

Gibs see's all kinds of false doctrine in the church and then concludes the church has fallen. Thats one excuse.

I suppose that we should let Gibs speak on this. But, I have yet to hear even one doctrine that Gibs is opposed to. What I have heard is that he is opposed to the UNofficial doctrines of some members. He is looking to 'others' instead of the church.

I could be wrong. But I have yet to see him post an official doctrine that he is opposed to.

I hate to be seen defending Gibs. But this is what I have witnessed or understood.

But over all there Club - I think you have a good post.

[Gibs]

Club12,

The one and only True Church, Ekklesia has not or ever will fall. It is the ones set up and given a name in front of "Church" that have fallen and so is a gathering by that name but is not the True Church. That is the only name it has ever had, "Church", it is Christ's, He alone is it's Head, He alone is It's Organizer, He alone Ordains it's ministers, preachers or whatever name given to them.

Many think they are "sent" and we must determine what Spirit they are sent of. His Spirit is it's, His Church's guide and Head and He is that Spirit. The one and only one the gates of Hell have not prevailed against. All the rest have and will continue to do so as they refuse the True Head and don't Hear His Spirit.

Just as the True Word of God cannot be copyrighted neither can His Church be. It cannot be changed in any way but following only Him and Holding Only Him as the Head and Organizer and Sender.

That kind of pull away began with what became the Papacy and then others broke off but none actally stayed with Him as it's Head and Organizer and Sender. They all applied a name in front of "Church" and that made it their church. That then meant like "Methodist called out ones our Methodist way" It has to be Ekklesia called out to His Way, He it's Head, He it's Organizer, He it's Sender and Ordainer.

Really all the rest are not Church, but are structures of men they call church, a called out to be of them and not Jesus Christ the Rock.

All the ministers Ordained of Him will be as true to Him and His Word as the needle of the compass is to the north pole. All His Spiritual members will hear only those who are Ordained of Him as they know the Voice of the True Shepherd by the quality known as the Truth.

Churches so called today are of the world and not of Jesus Christ the one and only Head, Organizer, Sender and Ordainer. They have added their name in front and the TRUE is not theirs but HIS ONLY!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Nic Samojluk]

ClubV12 wrote:

“The evidence, the counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy leaves us with no doubt as to the end times and no doubt the organized church will go through to the end.”

Yes, and the promise to Eli and his house was also unconditional. Nevertheless, when he failed to discipline his children, the Lord decided to void said unconditional promise made to Abiathar and his descendants. Have you read this in the Bible?

"Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: 'I promised that your house and your father's house would minister before me forever.' But now the LORD declares: 'Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.” [1 Sam. 2:30]

Can you explain why is the Lord obligated to keep blessing a church which allowed its hospitals to provide abortions on demand, which is contrary to the policy of our Guidelines on abortion and contrary to the clear biblical teaching against the shedding of the blood of innocent human beings?

“The common and typical example of the failure of the Jewish people (AFTER THOUSANDS OF YEARS) is misplaced and clearly contradicts the plain message of the prophet. Who declares, the church WILL go through to the end of time. Why is that so hard for folks to grasp?”

The house of Abiathar and his descendants did not last 1000 years. The promise made by the Angel Gabriel to Mary, the mother of Jesus, which stated that her son would sit on David’s throne lasted zero years, since Jesus did not have a chance to sit on David’s throne even a single day. Why? He was rejected as the rightful King of the Jews by the Jewish leaders.

All this is evidence that, as Ellen stated, God’s promises are conditional and contingent on human response. When Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple, said Jewish leaders decided that he was guilty of treason, because the Bible had predicted a glorious future for Jerusalem. Who was right at the end, the Jewish leaders who insisted that God’s promises could not fail, or Jesus who could read God’s promises as contingent on human response.

“The only question here is: Will YOU, Nic, be a part of it or not?”

Good question, and very true. Nobody can pretend to be safe from sinning and still get saved unless he/she repents of his/her sin. This is true about individuals and about institutions. I conclude that my church as an organization is not exempted. Private sins require private confession to God, but pulic sins must be confessed publicly.

“Of course promises are conditional, the Jewish Nation while still God's chosen people, suffered enormously over the centuries during times of rebellion. Just as Gods church in these end times will go through a terrible ordeal, a "shaking". It will be terrible, it will be devastating, it will appear as the church is about to fall.”

You are in danger of making the same mistake the Jewish leaders made. I am determined with God’s grace not to repeat said error!

“For those who cherish doubt and continualy point to the possibility the church COULD fall, are setting themselves up to believe a lie. When it appears the church will fall, they will say it HAS fallen and they will be among those "shaken out".”

Yes, this is the reason I have not left the Remnant Church. Nevertheless, I will not condemn those who have taken such a step. It all depends on their motivation and their fidelity to what they understand it is their duty to God and to Truth.

“Nic, this "argument" that the General Conference, when in session, is the highest authority on earth is not MY "argument", I am simply repeating the counsel of the Spirit of Prophecy.”

I suggest that you read everything Ellen White has written about the GC and its leaders. You seem to be very selective about the quotations you use. I have provided you with citation from Ellen White and from Scripture as evidence that we need to interpret what was promised correctly.

[Nic Samojluk]

ClubV12 wrote:

“Nic see's abortion as a serious issue the church is neglecting and thus determines the church will surely fall if it doesn't change. Change to HIS thinking, the way HE see's it, everyone must follow HIS doctrine or all hope is lost. A touch of ego in that doctrine Nic?”

Ego? I hope not! Speaking on behalf of those destined to the abortionists’ extermination chamber should not be treated as an ego trip. It’s contrary to the Sixth Commandment and against the basic tenet included in our Guidelines on Abortion which clearly state that the church does not condone abortions on demand. If I am wrong, then the church was wrong in condemning elective abortions.

The problem I see in the attitude of the church is that what the church tries to build with one hand, it destroys with the other by its example; or stated another way, it preaches one thing, but behaves contrary to its own teachings. Such attitude creates confusion in the minds of its members who don’t really know what the right thing to do is.

We need to bear in mind that the term Babylon stands for “confusion.” This is why Ellen White warned almost a century ago that our church was in danger of becoming “a sister to Babylon.” She said this at a time when Adventist leaders were condemning the practice of abortion as plain “murder.” Imagine what she would say now knowing that some of our hospitals have been exterminating unborn babies by the hundreds. Would you like some statistics?

My brother, this is not an ego trip! If this is an ego trip, then all the O.T. prophets including John the Baptist and Jesus himself were guilty of the same alleged sin.

“What good excuse will you use to find your way out from the Lords chosen people?”

Did I say I am leaving? I didn’t! I am hoping and praying that the Lord will raise leaders who will see the light and publicly acknowledge that we have sinned regarding this issue.

Our church did compromise on moral issues, including the Sabbath and killing, under the Hitler’s regime; and some years ago the German and Austrian leaders of our Adventist Church did publicly apologize for this deviation from moral duty.

A similar public apology is needed today coupled with the determination to divorce ourselves from the profitable abortion business.