Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 11, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 John317, you've misunderstood: that's fine, because I probably haven't been clear enough. The statistics are the ones that have come back from the survey. While I completed the survey, those statistics don't represent me. I didn't leave predominantly for doctrinal reasons, nor based on intensive Bible study. I'm an outlier in the study. Rather than derail this thread, I might start another one on 'why I'm a former SDA'. I've posted things on this before, but it might be worthwhile. For what it's worth, I don't think the church should change its doctrines to woo people back, but then, I don't consider people leaving to be a necessarily bad thing, so I'm not sure I'm the person to propose 'solutions'. I said it was food for thought that, when people study their Bibles intensively, it causes some of them to leave SDAism. You would need to talk to *them* about why that is, but it challenges a dominant Adventist myth that more Bible study will bind people more tightly to the denomination. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 ...I happen to know of many and I am one too and a home churcher. Most of us were pushed out because of our testimony that they couldn't refute. But oh yes they didn't want to take your name off the books. They disfellowshipped a few that really tore up their hair but not many. I had to have them take my name off. Are there fundamental doctrines of the SDA Church that you disagree with? Why did you feel that God wanted you to take your name off the church books and leave the SDA Church? Could you briefly summarize your testimony that "they couldn't refute"? On a different discussion, Co-Aspen defined an Adventist as a member of the Adventist Church. Do you agree with this definition or do you still consider yourself an Adventist? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Thanks Bravus, indeed I DID misread that!! And it IS something to think about. I believe that particular data point in the survey has a major flaw! I have been to many different churches over the years in my personal search for truth, and then I gave up and quit calling myself a christian all together, not wanting to live a lie. I wasn't baptized for months after I started attending the Adventist church, studying with an Elder. Going over each and every point of the foundantion principles carefully. I drew up my own charts on the 2,300 year prophecy, researched the history. At times I was SURE I had found a flaw, I came up with different dates within the time frame, the math didn't work. But I stayed with it, and in the end conclude, it was substantially correct. With the understanding, in which Ellen Whites work played a big roll, of where the problems lay and why they were there. Moving on to other points of doctrine, carefully comparing each piece of the puzzle, spending 8 to 10 hours a day researching, asking questions, consulting with others, intense bible study. Along the way I found Ellen Whites work so compelling I had no choice but to accept that she was a prophet, and I did my best to deny that for awhile! No question, Adventists just make sense, from a biblical stand point, no other denomination even comes close. Slowly I began to see another group of "intense bible students" AND deeply involved with and accepting of the Spirit of Prophecy. Some I very much admire, many I don't. One danger of intense bible study in combination with the Spirit of Prophecy is that it can and does result in fanatcism! However, I doubt this group of intense bible students would even be aware of this survey or care to take part in it. Unless it was specifically "marketed" to that group, who have left the church due to "intense bible study". I have to seriously question those that claim "intense bible study" in combination with "doctrinal" issues is a valid finding. On it's face, speaking as an engineer where my primary job was to "analyze" things, the results have got to be misleading. Number 1, Adventist or not, when you analyze the doctrine with an open mind, it just makes sense. It's reasonable and logical, I find no fault with it. Number 2, anyone who has seriously been an intense bible student should be able to refute the doctrine from the bible and the bible alone. Few, in or out of the church, are able to actually do that, or even sustain it for that matter. Intense bible students are a rare breed. There are only two groups I have met that could. One are as solid in the church as you can be, deep students of the bible. The other are "off shoots", many of whom claim to be Seventh Day Adventists but have withdrawn their membership. Neither group has a problem with the doctrine, there are other dividing issues. So I wonder, WHO are these folks claiming intense bible study led them out of the church? I highly doubt that is the real issue in this survey, theres something else going on, something this survey has missed on that point. It's just not a logical conclusion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 11, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 The survey includes a few of these simple statistical (quantitative) measures, but includes boxes for people to write much more detailed responses. I kind of pity the researcher, because she needs to find a way to convey the sense of those data richly - it was up around 200 participants last I heard - but I think a lot of the questions you raise here will be addressed in that way. Each individual's story is different (read mine on another thread). We certainly shouldn't over-interpret on only a couple of very preliminary data points (which were, I think, after only about 70 responses), and I apologise if I've done that. I thought they were intriguing, nothing more. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: Bravus ....The survey can be done in 10-15 minutes, but I think I took nearly an hour: there are boxes for longer responses and I wrote a reasonable amount. It was a worthwhile activity for me just in terms of reflecting on my own ideas and beliefs. I think there's value in the church having a better understanding of why people leave.... It sounds like you left primarily because of disagreements with the doctrines of the SDA Church. Do you believe the church should change its doctrines in order to keep people in the church or to attract people back to it? In regard to the colored highlight above, I don't think the SDA Church should change its doctrines to attract people back to it. The SDA Church should change its doctrines because a true study of the Bible demands that SDA are wrong on a number of fronts and need to change in order to be aligned correctly with Truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Until I took that survey I did not realize how much SDA doctrin and ideals I disagree with. Not having been an Adventist for over 20 years I really forgot about some of it. I think it would be great if current Adventists went over the entire survey and really discovered again what the believe. If you are a dedicated adventist it can only strengthen your faith As far as the church changing to woo members back - that is silly. It should just start remembering the whole "let he without sin cast the first stone" bit. If it changes it should change because of new light shed on its doctrine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2011 ...As far as the church changing to woo members back - that is silly. .... If it changes it should change because of new light shed on its doctrine. Yes, I agree. I think it would not only be silly but it would be wrong to do otherwise. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2011 The SDA Church should change its doctrines because a true study of the Bible demands that SDA are wrong on a number of fronts and need to change in order to be aligned correctly with Truth. Truth to me is EXTREMELY important. It is life itself. If you have light, present it and let's examine it. If SDAs are in error, point to the doctrine that's wrong and let's discuss it. It might also help if you tell us what church you belong to so I can go to their website to see what they teach. Show me a church that is more biblically sound than the SDA Church and I'll join it pronto! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2011 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2011 ... I don't think the SDA Church should change its doctrines to attract people back to it. The SDA Church should change its doctrines because a true study of the Bible demands that SDA are wrong on a number of fronts and need to change in order to be aligned correctly with Truth. We're in essential agreement that changing its doctrines must be based solely on the study of the Bible and the conviction that the previous doctrines don't line up with the Bible's teachings. Upon what fronts do you understand the SDA church's doctrines to be wrong? Are you talking about Fundemental Beliefs? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Truth to me is EXTREMELY important. It is life itself. If you have light, present it and let's examine it. If SDAs are in error, point to the doctrine that's wrong and let's discuss it. It might also help if you tell us what church you belong to so I can go to their website to see what they teach. Show me a church that is more biblically sound than the SDA Church and I'll join it pronto! Amen brother!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I'm really interested in what doctrines they mention. That will be very interesting. Yes that would be interesting. It would also be interesting to know if they can actually find their way from one end of the Bible to the other. Most of the ex-SDAs I meet in person seem to have no clue at all about what the Bible actually says - and seldom have a good grasp of the actual Bible studies that result in the SDA doctrinal set. Others may have found something to the contrary - I am always open to the evidence. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: pkrause I'm really interested in what doctrines they mention. That will be very interesting. Yes that would be interesting. It would also be interesting to know if they can actually find their way from one end of the Bible to the other. Most of the ex-SDAs I meet in person seem to have no clue at all about what the Bible actually says - and seldom have a good grasp of the actual Bible studies that result in the SDA doctrinal set. Others may have found something to the contrary - I am always open to the evidence. in Christ, Bob I can tell you this. I have read the Bible cover to cover at least 4 times. I agree that the SDA church is biblically sound. As sound as it can be given that the book itself winds in circles and screams for various interpretations. My problem with the Bible is that it is like reading book 2 of a trilogy or something. It has some of the ingredients for the path to the truth but it is missing a lot as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 I wouldn't say it's missing anything, but I WOULD say it is difficult for our dull minds to comprehend and interpret it correctly. Thats why God has prophets along the way, always has had, to help us fill in the blanks. Thank the Lord for bringing us a prophet for out time so we can understand it. Remove the prophet and sure enough, you got a major handicap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 12, 2011 Members Share Posted November 12, 2011 My problem with the Bible is that it is like reading book 2 of a trilogy or something. It has some of the ingredients for the path to the truth but it is missing a lot as well. Not sure what you mean by your first sentence? Maybe you can elaborate. The second sentence hits the hammer right squarely on the nail!! That is why EGW wrote all those books, one of the main reasons that God called for a prophet in the last days. I don't know how many times I've heard that same statement, and at the same time those asking that question don't want to listen to what she fills in. Just amazing to me. I asked those same questions and still do, so I go to the lessor light and read and say, hey that makes sense!! Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: pkrause I'm really interested in what doctrines they mention. That will be very interesting. Yes that would be interesting. It would also be interesting to know if they can actually find their way from one end of the Bible to the other. Most of the ex-SDAs I meet in person seem to have no clue at all about what the Bible actually says - and seldom have a good grasp of the actual Bible studies that result in the SDA doctrinal set. Others may have found something to the contrary - I am always open to the evidence. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross My problem with the Bible is that it is like reading book 2 of a trilogy or something. It has some of the ingredients for the path to the truth but it is missing a lot as well. Not sure what you mean by your first sentence? Maybe you can elaborate. The second sentence hits the hammer right squarely on the nail!! That is why EGW wrote all those books, one of the main reasons that God called for a prophet in the last days. I don't know how many times I've heard that same statement, and at the same time those asking that question don't want to listen to what she fills in. Just amazing to me. I asked those same questions and still do, so I go to the lessor light and read and say, hey that makes sense!! Maybe its just me, but I shop for books at flea markets and yard sales a lot. I often find a book that is part of a trilogy. But its book 2, and I can't find book one or three. I get it anyway so I have it when I find the others. Every now and then I will sit down to read it, hoping that I can get what the story is about. What you get is a story that while its readable, it is missing the real history, you miss the actual beginning of the character development etc. You can eventually figure out the story but you are missing the details that would make it make sense. To me that is what the Bible is like. It hints at a lot of things but misses the details. Now as far as EGW - I found her writings to give even more of a blanket statement and explanation. One that discourages people from actualy digging for themselves. Kind of like when the Vatican used to forbid anyone not of the priesthood or clergy from reading the Bible. Cause look what happens - you get the Martin Luthers of the world. I simply can not accept 99% of what she said as being anything more than one persons agenda based take on the writings. If you get more than that from her writings thats great. I tend to be suspicious of anyone that claim to be "chosen" and it bothers me when people openly accept them as being just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 ... I don't think the SDA Church should change its doctrines to attract people back to it. The SDA Church should change its doctrines because a true study of the Bible demands that SDA are wrong on a number of fronts and need to change in order to be aligned correctly with Truth. We're in essential agreement that changing its doctrines must be based solely on the study of the Bible and the conviction that the previous doctrines don't line up with the Bible's teachings. Upon what fronts do you understand the SDA church's doctrines to be wrong? Are you talking about Fundemental Beliefs? Yes, I am talking about Fundamental Beliefs (28). In some cases they are almost, if not totally wrong. In other cases only partially wrong. And in still yet some cases they are dead on correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2011 Yes, I am talking about Fundamental Beliefs (28). In some cases they are almost, if not totally wrong. In other cases only partially wrong. And in still yet some cases they are dead on correct. Can you briefly describe what exactly you believe is unbiblical about the doctrines? What are the main problems you have with them? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Yes, I am talking about Fundamental Beliefs (28). In some cases they are almost, if not totally wrong. In other cases only partially wrong. And in still yet some cases they are dead on correct. Can you briefly describe what exactly you believe is unbiblical about the doctrines? What are the main problems you have with them? That could get very lengthy if I went through all 28 Fundamental Beliefs. I don't think it is possible to be brief and yet informative. If I must be brief, I would say the main problem I have with them is that they are not Biblical. This brings us back to your first question which is the one that cannot be dealt with briefly. Do you want me to go through each of the twenty-eight and tell you what I think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2011 Truth usually can be stated briefly. It is usually error that has to take circuitous routes of explanation. Let's take this "errors" one at a time. Which is the first of the 28 SDA FB do you think is in error? State what your objection is. I'm still waiting for you to state what church you belong to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Excellent point, Doc. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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