Gibs Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Outraged and Gail brought up that thought over there in the "shout" box and today I would be interested in what different ones see as a "real Adventists" I'm serious. I see some as real serious real Adventists and probably those are not liberal, then I see some very serious Real Adventists that are liberal. What makes them all real adventists then is the fact they have taken up the Sabbath truth and can at least agree on that. Well I suppose it is from where we stand then on which is Real. Maybe Real isn' the word we want to use to really say what we mean. What are your thoughts? Bro. Gibs. A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted November 10, 2011 Administrators Share Posted November 10, 2011 The feeling I get is that defining what an Adventist is is not a black and white matter in many cases... Some might see it as an identity crisis, others as diversity. Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hmmmmm....."Real Adventists" I am reminded of a couple of things.... Thingy #1] [excerpts from Adventist Blues] Now, I don't smoke or have long hair I go to church each week, oh yes I do.. I never eat before going to bed, I take a class of juice instead. And I jog each week at least mile or two. You know, I've always been pretty good, I've always done just what I should My parents were missionarys....overseas Yes, I got all A's in bible class studied hard so I could pass... I even bought my books from the ABC. [Adventist Book Stores] ...[snip] Recently I've heard some talk, they say I need a closer walk with Jesus, if I'll let Him in... Well, I'm all for that I'll give it a try... but I ask myself ...where does He fit in? Thingy #2] as seen on a poster "Those of you who think you know it all are annoying those of us who actually do..." Apply principles found above to your life....then you will find "a real adventist".... Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted November 10, 2011 Author Share Posted November 10, 2011 Hamilton, I sure liked your comment there. I think the Lord knows the heart and even better than we know our own and to be honest within ourselves is one place to begin. A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 I don't know, seems simple enough. While Gods church in the big picture has many sheep, not all of a single fold and some hidden there is one group that defines Gods church on earth for this time. Seventh-day Adventists, given a special message and work to deliver to the world. I assume when we say "Adventist" we are talking about Seventh-day Adventists, that organized, legal and represented by a General Conference group, not just a group that keeps the Sabbath (they are numerous). Some are off shoots of Seventh-day Adventists, some just acknowledge the Sabbath. They may or may not be looking for the Advent of Christ. So, "real Adventists" by definition, are members of the Seventh-day Adventist church. The key word being "member", as in, good standing. Some attend church, for various reasons, not all are actually members. You could call "visitors" or those who simply "attend" church Seventh-day Adventists, but it would be misleading. To be a member doesn't require party affiliation (thank God for that). You don't have to be liberal, conservative or inbetween to be a "real Adventist". Now if the question was, "Whos a real christian", that would be impossible to nail down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted November 10, 2011 Administrators Share Posted November 10, 2011 Talking about "real" Adventists... a colleague mentioned that she has the song, Tutti Fruitti in her head and can't get it out. No one, not even Elvis, did that song like Little Richard. Not sure where Little Richard is on the theology scale but it brought to mind how varied we are. Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 10, 2011 Members Share Posted November 10, 2011 Have to agree with Gail, there is no way to pin down a "real adventist." But I would suppose that an Adventist would be one that follows the Bible, but than that could be said of a "real Christian" also. Could it be one that accepts Jesus Christ as there Lord and Savior, and than keeps an on going relationship with him, so that there light may so shine that others can see Jesus living in them???? phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 10, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 10, 2011 Let's start with some basics. Is it safe to say that a real Seventh-day Adventist keeps the Seventh-day Sabbath, believes in the visible, literal return of Christ, and accepts the Protestant Bible as God's inspired Word? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted November 10, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 10, 2011 A new phenomenon that I'm seeing lately is "surreal Adventists". They seem to be everywhere. There is an odd mixture in their thinking of fact and fantasy. Just sayin' Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 10, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 10, 2011 Can you give some examples? Would it be better to talk about what a "surreal Adventist" is? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 I'm always very leery about any discussions of the 'real ....' Seems to me that either they're about exclusion rather than inclusion: identifying others as not 'real' or else they're about the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy. Either way, unhelpful. Forget definitions and focus on being like Jesus. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 Seems to me that either they're about exclusion rather than inclusion: identifying others as not 'real' or else they're about the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy. Yup, that's where this thread is going to end up. Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 I don't see the "No True Scotsman" scenario apply to this, again, rather simple question. The Scotsman concept is talking in very vague and general terms, all Scotsman play golf, all Americans like a backyard BBQ. Very broad and general. Seventh-day Adventists, on the other hand, have specific requirements. These requirements are spelled out in the church manual as MINIMUM standards. More general in nature are the baptismal vows and the 28 fundamental beliefs. John317 is on the right track: "Is it safe to say that a real Seventh-day Adventist keeps the Seventh-day Sabbath, believes in the visible, literal return of Christ, and accepts the Protestant Bible as God's inspired Word?" It leaves the bar pretty low, but OK, at least it's a place to start. If your not a member of the "Lions Club", don't say you are. If you didn't win a purple heart in combat, don't say you did. In either case you have no ethical moral right to make such a claim. If your not a member of the organized official Seventh-day Adventist church, it's immoral and unethical to refer to yourself as such. But lets lay aside the church manual as a definiton for a moment and flounder around and get beat up on the rocks,,, (because we just lost our anchor). What ARE "Real Adventists"? I don't have a clue, we gave up the manual that defines and answers the question. The question now becomes more akin to who are the wheat and who are the tares? NOW the Scotsman scenairo comes into full play. NOW we can throw caution to the wind and start "excluding" right and left based on our own personal views. Confusion is our new leader, and you know God is not the author of confusion. Without the "law" we have no idea what sin looks like or what it is, we have no anchor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted November 11, 2011 Author Share Posted November 11, 2011 While it may be in a sense to be a real SDA one need be a member in good standing in the denomination. But in another way and you may say it is a generic sense, one who believes in Christ's soon coming again to gather the living and dead in Him and know and keep the Sabbath Holy, not defiling it and are of that Holy Bible and follow it's precepts and not any other guide I see them as a real SDA. The ship I see taking any through to the kingdom is Jesus Christ and being an overcomer with His indwelling and empowering, overcoming the devil and no more continuing in sin. As Paul has said, Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? The secret is Christ in you the hope of glory and the victory we seek and must have. None will overcome that do not believe it is possible. Come let us all be true believers that He in us we have that wonderful victory. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 The question of "real adventist", circumvents the real question, a follower of Christ or a follow of a name, church group, organization or what ever. Which is the most important? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 I am just gonna throw this out there This is the kinda question that totally leads to elitist claims and leaves people hurt and feeling like they are just not good enough. It leads to division and as mentioned above - confusion. Only the author of the confusion is people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Possibly, "sheep of another flock", possibly. More likely the group(s) you describe would be comprised of churches like the Seventh Day Baptists or Seventh Day Adventist Reform movement, Creationist Seventh Day Adventists. Other possible contenders would be Branch Davidians, Shepards Rods and many many other "off shoots" of Seventh-day Adventistism. Sincere and Godly people who may find their way into the Kingdom. I won't judge them because I don't know them. Never the less, they are not "Seventh-day Adventists". We could also include, no doubt very rare, individuals who have never heard of the Seventh-day Adventist church. But are keeping the Sabbath, looking for Christs second coming and are bible based. I don't know any of them either and I think it would front page news if any were found somewhere in the world. Certainly possible. More generic would be the term "Adventist", all though even THAT is a trademarked name and we should be careful applying it to just anyone. Some exclusion is needed because: That large group would comprise 95% of all Christians! What Christian group DOESN't acknowledge the return of Christ at some point? Now Lazarus might be closer to the truth on this matter, but it's a delicate issue. What about those who not only CLAIM to be Seventh-day Adventists, ARE actually members of that church AND clearly hold theology views that are entirely inconsistent with Seventh-day Adventist church manual laws? Such folks may reject large portions of the bible as mere opinions of men. Openly fight against the Testimonies of Ellen White and call her a false prophet. Can we consider such, "Seventh-day Adventists"? Personally, I say no. I base that on the minimum requirements of the church manual. But more than that, I see them as the "wolves" Paul spoke of that would come into the church. People make all kinds of claims, sincerely, and sincerely mistaken. They may even work miracles in Christs name, and yet, He says he doesn't know them. It is not "elistist" to call yourself a Seventh-day Adventist. That is no gaurentee of salvation, nor is church membership. It is either a factual statement, or it isn't. THAT is the question, are you or are you not a "Seventh-day Adventist" (registered trademark)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Quote: Seventh-day Adventists, on the other hand, have specific requirements. These requirements are spelled out in the church manual as MINIMUM standards. More general in nature are the baptismal vows and the 28 fundamental beliefs. I remember you a couple threads ago claiming that Moses was SDA , so how do you reconcile your view above and your view of Moses in such case? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Possibly, "sheep of another flock", possibly. It is not "elistist" to call yourself a Seventh-day Adventist. That is no gaurentee of salvation, nor is church membership. It is either a factual statement, or it isn't. THAT is the question, are you or are you not a "Seventh-day Adventist" (registered trademark)! **sigh** I did not say it IS elitist to claim that. I said that a discussion like this can lead to elitist claims. Many of which could be totally false. Its a breeding ground for dissent and hurt feelings. Technically speaking, if my name has never been removed from the church records - then I am a real adventist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Technically speaking that is correct Emptycross, you are indeed a Seventh-day Adventist! Moses was a Seventh Day Adventist, as was Adam before him, in the larger "many sheep have I that are not of this fold" sense. If Moses, or Adam, were alive today, they would in fact be "official" members of the modern Seventh-day Adventist church. It's not like they would be Baptists! Or, Branch Davidians or any number of other off shoots. Emptycross, it CAN lead to "elitism" but it's still a worthy discussion if we can hold a balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 Forget about the "real Adventist" then. Let's just talk about what a Seventh-day Adventist is. Can I start by asking if you are a Seventh-day Adventist? When in the U.S. Military, I wore a "dog tag" that identified me as a Seventh-day Adventist. I had a friend whose dog tag read "atheist." Another friend's read "Catholic," and still another read "Baptist." They all knew what their tags meant, and I knew what mine meant. So did the Army chaplain. I bet if you go to a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness forum, they will be able to tell you what it means to be a Mormon or a Jehovah's Witness. Seems pathetic that on a Forum named "ClubAdventist," so many either they can't agree on what a Seventh-day Adventist is or else they appear to be downright offended by being asked the question. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Can anyone tell me what the value of this continuing topic is? It keeps coming up over and over. It is a 'dead horse' issue, please let it rest!! Are people that bored that we continue to explore our navels? All it contains is 'lint'!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Yes John317, I am a REAL Adventist, but not at all like you--so the opinions here must be a dime a dozen. Would not it be a better idea to allow Jesus's words describe what a true and perfect Advetist shold be? How about what He told the Rich Young Ruler in Matt. 19 and iin Rev. 12:17? Didn't Jesus say to keep all of the ten commandments and to be perfect to follow Him, meaning to abide in the words of Jesus, them being the Testimony the Father wanted presented to this world by His Son Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 If you don't like the discussion, at least have the courtesy to let those who like it carry it on. Neither you nor I have the right to go on the various forums and tell people to stop talking about something. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 So, then, what is a Seventh-day Adventist? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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