"Real Adventists"

[Dr. Waite]

I was in church and the pastor asked the person before they were baptized this question: Do you believe that God is a unity of three co-eternal persons Father, Son, and holy Spirit?

Did Jesus Christ ever teach or state that God is a unity of three co-eternal persons?

If yes, where is the bible text?

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

There are about a dozen specific reasons in the church manual that are a cause for disfellowshiping, these are the absolute minimum requirements to maintain your membership within the church.

Funny, when I got kicked out at the age of 19 the reason that was given to me.

See I smoked, drank, did drugs, was in a metal band, wore make up, had long hair, was fornicating like a rabid bunny on super amped viagra. But none of these well known facts was the reason I was given.

See I was not paying tithe from the income I didn't have. I got a nice little letter stating that since I had moved and had not registered with a new church and began tithing to that church my name was to be taken off the books. I was also told that since the author of the letter was aware that my personal relationship to Jesus meant everything to me it would be in my best intrest to get myself registered in a local church and pay to God what was Gods.

It seems that 10% of salvation is too come out of your pocketbook.

Yikes man! Sounds dangerously close to PAPAL INDULGENCES. LOL; I didn't know what else to call what you describe, I am not trying to offend anyone. But yes; the reasons for dismissal/disfellowship are many and varied, and in most cases; it is left to individual congregations to determine the exact reason..

And hey EC; I am glad you got out of that lifestyle! You would be dead by now if you were not, and I am glad to have met you here!! But watch out for the "real" Adventists here. They just might bite.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

I don't have a problem with division, neither did Jesus. The time we are in now is just a warm up exercise, when the true shaking comes along we will see massive division. No doubt with calls from the pulpit, by Adventist Pastors, urging the membership to accept the Sunday laws in the spirit of "unity". Will this be a reason to leave the church when that happens? CERTAINLY NOT!!! There will NEVER be a reason. It will be a call to stand firm in the face of adversity when other members of the church are calling you a fanatic, and worse. Stand your ground, STAY in the church no matter what. THOSE who do not follow Jesus will soon be revealed, leave, and you WILL join them in due time.

We need to press together, we need to find unity, but not to a false god, unity with unbelievers is impossible, a pipe dream. Division is reality.

AMEN!!

hey John 317, I would be careful what I say amen to here. I have seen people, say like Club here shout out the very same religious persecution/trial talk before. I have seen people who thought they were so "ready" for anything that might come along, and so firmly convinced that they believed so thoroughly that nothing could ever shake them out of the Church; and then one day; ever so subltley, a weak spot was hit, and out they went. They could not face the church and their satanic reaction and condemnation. The church can be very cruel to people who don't fit in, and have everything all perfect in their life. You know - like "real Adventists."

[LifeHiscost]

I was in church and the pastor asked the person before they were baptized this question: Do you believe that God is a unity of three co-eternal persons Father, Son, and holy Spirit?

Did Jesus Christ ever teach or state that God is a unity of three co-eternal persons?

If yes, where is the bible text?

"God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness Genesis 1:26 AMP Brackets theirs LHC

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us [the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit], to know [how to distinguish between] good and evil and blessing and calamity; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever--Genesis 3:22 AMP

Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 AMP

God blesses!

[Dr. Waite]

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

I was in church and the pastor asked the person before they were baptized this question: Do you believe that God is a unity of three co-eternal persons Father, Son, and holy Spirit?

Did Jesus Christ ever teach or state that God is a unity of three co-eternal persons?

If yes, where is the bible text?

"God said, Let Us [Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] make mankind in Our image, after Our likeness Genesis 1:26 AMP Brackets theirs LHC

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us [the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit], to know [how to distinguish between] good and evil and blessing and calamity; and now, lest he put forth his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever--Genesis 3:22 AMP

Go then and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 AMP

God blesses!

The verse in Genesis does not tell who the "us" is.

Are you made in the image of the Holy Spirit?

Jesus Christ when referring to "God" always referred to his Father and He clearly says that the "only true God" is his Father. See John 17:3 "only" means one person or being, not three

[Gibs]

[Dr. Waite]

Gibs:

EXCELLENT, THANK YOU

[Neil D]

So, Hamilton, are YOU a Seventh-day Adventist? If not why not, I'd like to know.

If Adam were alive today, he would be a Seventh-day Adventist. It's as simple as that, truth is progressive. Luther had only "enough" for his time.

So you want to know if I am an SDA? My question to you is why do you want to know? Am I that much of an enigma? Do I confuse you?

Let me be clear....The Church doctrines are clearly for the church....The writings of the Church are for the individual and clearly are an expression of a character of love. What I see here is NOT an expression of love, but more of a warped character, a reed that is broken.....and this broken-ness is advanced as "truth"....

If I were to rest my faith on what I see here, [and I too am wrestling with this], I too would leave....

[Neil D]

Gibs, please get used to using the " " buttons. They clarify as to who is saying what and it makes it easier to figure out who is talking to whom and about what.......

I have no doubt you are very sincere,,,, and sincerely mistaken.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

If YOU are honest with yourself [aka "if you are honest and doing that"]........

Who gave you permission to look at others and judge them? I think I can honestly say that I have enough on my plate without telling others if they are "real adventists" or not....

Not sure what post of mine you are referring to. Perhaps you're responding to someone else.

Be that as it may, it sounds like you think the church doesn't have the right or the responsibility to decide whether people are real SDAs or not. Yet it's very importarnt for the church to know who its members are and whether they are rightly representing Christ and the church.

We can't and shouldn't try to judge people's salvation or their motives, but the Bible clearly gives Christians the duty of deciding issues of right and wrong, and that includes judging whether other people's words and behavior are good or not.

1 Cor. 5:9-13

I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— [10] not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. [11] But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. [12] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? [13] God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you."

1 Cor. 15:33

Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals."

At the same time, we need to be understanding, forgiving and thoughtful toward others and treat them in the same way that we want them to treat us.

Here, john, you mix the concepts of "real Adventists" with "Christians"...The two concepts are not identical. May I remind you that the thread is on "real Adventists" and not on "Christians"...As such, there are certain assumptions that are made. "Real Adventist" are those people who have been exposed to the bible..."Real Adventists" are members of the Adventist church...or claim that they are adventists. "Real Adventist" are those who equate the concepts of Christiand with Adventists [mistaken concepts tho they be]. And the only people who are going to ask themselves if they are "real Adventists" are those who examine themselves to meet thier own criteria of 'adventist'.

Now, having clarify this a bit, let me say this [again]-

"If one is honest with oneself" meaning that if you look at yourself and honestly answer the question as to if you meet the criteria for being a 'honest real true blue adventist', you will find enough evidence that you probably dont meet that criteria, and will have to work on it. And you will find that you will spend more time working on yourself than you need to judge the "sins" [aka who ain't a 'real adventist'] of others....

[monty]

Poster: EmptyCross "See I was not paying tithe from the income I didn't have. I got a nice little letter stating that since I had moved and had not registered with a new church and began tithing to that church my name was to be taken off the books. I was also told that since the author of the letter was aware that my personal relationship to Jesus meant everything to me it would be in my best intrest to get myself registered in a local church and pay to God what was Gods.

It seems that 10% of salvation is too come out of your pocketbook."

Gods grace is a wonder to me and as we experiance it it becomes even more amazing. I hope this is your experiance. I appreciate the Club's posting of the link to the 13 standards of belief, I think they should be upheld in a spirit of love and acceptance.

I have always paid a faithful tithe but I also have had these experiances. Of the tens of thousands paid to the SDA church in my lifetime the only message I have heard is "Gimee, Gimee and Gimee more. While being accussed of not paying a "full tithe" and being judged and marginalized mostly by those feeding at the Denominational trough, you know the "Real Adventists". It is not easy to hang in there but this is God's remanant church and He recognizes our faithfulness.

[ClubV12]

Some are mixing up the concept of christian and Adventist. Once again, the thread is about "real Adventists", not "christians", which is a broader subject. Most of America would consider themselves christian, a much smaller group considers themselves Adventists.

TITHE is NOT a reason for disfellowship or a test of faith. It is NOT a requirement of membership or retaining membership or baptism.

Tithe paid with an unwilling heart is not an acceptable sacrifice to God, it would be better if you keep it. Tithe is NOT paid to the church, it is an offering to God through the church. What His stewards do with the money after that is His concern, not yours.

Baptism, whether you accept the 13 vows or the alternate 3 vows, BOTH include the 28. It is up to the Pastor to determine whether the spirit of your acceptance and your understanding of a Godly life qualifies you for baptism.

MEMBERSHIP in the church IS NOT up to the Pastor it is up to the church body, who VOTES on whether to accept you or not. The Pastor cannot interfere with their decision.

TRANSFER of membership is NOT up to the Pastor, that is a church board consideration. The local church may refuse a membership transfer to a NEW church. In which case the NEW church will not even be able to vote on acceptance or not.

As for myself, I claim NOTHING as to my spiritual condition or ability to follow through with Gods commands and enter the New City. Moses stumbled on the edge, I may as well, any of us may. I'm dealing with the raw FACTS on this issue of "real Adventists". If your not a member of the church, your not a real Adventist, thats just a fact.

[Gibs]

Gibs, please get used to using the " " buttons. They clarify as to who is saying what and it makes it easier to figure out who is talking to whom and about what.......

Originally Posted By: Gibs

I have no doubt you are very sincere,,,, and sincerely mistaken.

Perhaps....perhaps not....

Originally Posted By: Gibs

My response is this, I can not and will not support error. Many continue to do so and defend it with their lives but that is their choice. Luther wouldn't support the error he saw and you commend him or would you as a faithful Catholic stand that the church can do no wrong? A faithful Catholic also believes God bestows His supreme affection upon it.

What do you think of the NLP, Lab 1,2,3 and just believe and you are saved and Theistic evolution that came in and the latest emerging church thelology and there is more like the sell out to Barnhouse and Martin in the 1950's so as not to be called a cult by them and get the praise of the world.

Just like the scripture states there has been a falling away and a coming to love false doctrine and having teachers to keep up the love of it.

your concern over WHAT is right over rides your concern for humans in thier frailty. It's not WHAT is right that you need to be concerned with...It's WHO you know...and living as if He were guiding you as to what you need to do to help others....

Because if its WHAT you know that gets you into heaven, Satan has a first class ticket to go there....

What is important Hamilton is to know the Way and the way He has made and walk in it.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

"Strait" there also means narrow and none get through with any worldly baggage. People want to be saved their way today and have made up a false gospel to take this worlds baggage through and it just won't go through. His Way is the only one that will.

He, Jesus had exactly our same frailities and overcame the devil and the world and dwells in each that will have Him in and then these have the same power to overcome as He did. Scripture makes it clear we can be overcomers and must be or then is when you get the ticket to the pit. The ticket out of the pit is Christ in you and being totally His and overcoming as He did.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[M. T. Cross]

TITHE is NOT a reason for disfellowship or a test of faith. It is NOT a requirement of membership or retaining membership or baptism.

Tithe paid with an unwilling heart is not an acceptable sacrifice to God, it would be better if you keep it. Tithe is NOT paid to the church, it is an offering to God through the church. What His stewards do with the money after that is His concern, not yours.

Yet I got kicked out for not paying it.

[ClubV12]

No, you didn't Emptycross, I don't know WHY you REALLY stopped attending church, but it was NOT a tithing issue that was of concern to the church.

Absolutely not, that is obviously your thoughts on it, you need to look deeper. The whole purpose of being disfellowshipped is so you understand the spiritual danger you are in. By missing the boat and apply it to something unrelated, like a tithe issue, you are deceiving only yourself.

People can have their names removed from the books for various reasons. This is NOT "disfellowship" it is more like common sense and accounting. When someone hasn't been attending church for a length of time, their names are considered for removal.

[Overaged]

TITHE is NOT a reason for disfellowship or a test of faith. It is NOT a requirement of membership or retaining membership or baptism.

Tithe paid with an unwilling heart is not an acceptable sacrifice to God, it would be better if you keep it. Tithe is NOT paid to the church, it is an offering to God through the church. What His stewards do with the money after that is His concern, not yours.

Baptism, whether you accept the 13 vows or the alternate 3 vows, BOTH include the 28. It is up to the Pastor to determine whether the spirit of your acceptance and your understanding of a Godly life qualifies you for baptism.

MEMBERSHIP in the church IS NOT up to the Pastor it is up to the church body, who VOTES on whether to accept you or not. The Pastor cannot interfere with their decision.

TRANSFER of membership is NOT up to the Pastor, that is a church board consideration. The local church may refuse a membership transfer to a NEW church. In which case the NEW church will not even be able to vote on acceptance or not.

Tithe most certainly is a "test of fellowship" in many churches.

I can name one poor fellow who was Elder, along with myself and a few others one year. He was booted out of office for "not tithing;" and when I found out about it; I decided to go see the man and investigate. Turns out he had been laid off at work, was unemployed for the 4 months that he didn't tithe; and the thing was; he was too embarrassed to tell anyone he couldn't find work. But he would have confided that in someone if they had taken the trouble to look into it.

I would suggest that "tithe" is indeed used as a test of who the "real Adventists" are in most churches. Maybe they are not supposed to but they do.

[ClubV12]

People, churches, groups do a lot of things they aren't supposed to do. Don't let that rob you of your crown. Tithe is NOT an official position of the church. If someone is being abused because of a tithe issue they should take it up with the Conference.

Hamilton, it's a simple question, I'm not sure why your so embarrased to state it one way or the other. I'm not sure why Peter denied Christ either. It's up to you.

As for me, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, no if's, and's or but's about it. See how easy it is to say that.

[Overaged]

No, you didn't Emptycross, I don't know WHY you REALLY stopped attending church, but it was NOT a tithing issue that was of concern to the church.

Absolutely not, that is obviously your thoughts on it, you need to look deeper. The whole purpose of being disfellowshipped is so you understand the spiritual danger you are in. By missing the boat and apply it to something unrelated, like a tithe issue, you are deceiving only yourself.

People can have their names removed from the books for various reasons. This is NOT "disfellowship" it is more like common sense and accounting. When someone hasn't been attending church for a length of time, their names are considered for removal.

"Common Sense and Accounting? Wow. So Empty Cross has no idea what "really" happened to him. Wow again...

One day you will learn the difference between church theory and church life...

[Overaged]

People, churches, groups do a lot of things they aren't supposed to do. Don't let that rob you of your crown. Tithe is NOT an official position of the church. If someone is being abused because of a tithe issue they should take it up with the Conference.

Hamilton, it's a simple question, I'm not sure why your so embarrased to state it one way or the other. I'm not sure why Peter denied Christ either. It's up to you.

As for me, I'm a Seventh-day Adventist, no if's, and's or but's about it. See how easy it is to say that.

Why would you be so insistent on knowing details that people may not want to share online...Oh; Yes. We must decide on what is a "real Adventist;" and if he answers the right way he is in.

[ClubV12]

Oh I assure you Emptycross KNOWS why he stopped attending church!!!! Maybe it WAS tithe in his mind, the devil doesn't care "why" just as long you do what he wants.

Why should the church be burdened with a HUGE list of people who haven't come to church in years but are listed on the books? It's an accounting problem, at some point, you need to throw out the old checks, the old tax papers and clean the books up. It's just common sense.

Why would I be concerned who is and who isn't an Adventist here on this forum? BECAUSE their are many who make that claim and are preaching false doctrine and trying to draw others OUT of the church. I find this behaviour disturbing, dangerous, unethical and immoral. I myself have been taken in by such carpet baggers, I like to know where people stand. IF they don't want to say, I will approach them with caution. They are, at least, confused.

[M. T. Cross]

No, you didn't Emptycross, I don't know WHY you REALLY stopped attending church, but it was NOT a tithing issue that was of concern to the church.

Absolutely not, that is obviously your thoughts on it, you need to look deeper. The whole purpose of being disfellowshipped is so you understand the spiritual danger you are in. By missing the boat and apply it to something unrelated, like a tithe issue, you are deceiving only yourself.

People can have their names removed from the books for various reasons. This is NOT "disfellowship" it is more like common sense and accounting. When someone hasn't been attending church for a length of time, their names are considered for removal.

I am lying then?

This is not about the reason I quit going. You had brought up reasons for disfellowship, I shared what I was told I was being removed for. I made a couple calls at the time and was told it meant actual disfellowship. I just don't know if it was ever actually done or not. I am assuming it was.

My reasons for not going to church have nothing to do with tithe. It was possibly one of the only things I didn't have a problem with.

[Overaged]

Oh I assure you Emptycross KNOWS why he stopped attending church!!!! Maybe it WAS tithe in his mind, the devil doesn't care "why" just as long you do what he wants.

Why should the church be burdened with a HUGE list of people who haven't come to church in years but are listed on the books? It's an accounting problem, at some point, you need to throw out the old checks, the old tax papers and clean the books up. It's just common sense.

"Cleaning the books up? I'm sorry, you are way off base.

I wasn't even an Elder at the time but one year I just said to tha Pastor, "give me a list of all the non-active members; especially the ones who havnt been here for years." My reasoning was that someone should be trying to reach out to these people, no matter how long it has been since they attended. And if we did something wrong to the person; we could try to make it right. I contacted over 60 people that summer, and 9 of them came back to church as a result. Now thats what I would call "cleaning up the books."

[Overaged]

I have had people tell me that the problems I experienced, and that led to me not attending church for 3 years, was infact not true. I "didn't understand." I was not seeing it right...It seems other people, know better than I do, what happened to me and why.

[ClubV12]

Thanks for clairifying that you were disfellowshiped Emptycross, my heart goes out to you.

I don't know why you were, apparently YOU don't know why either, it was not tithe, thats for sure! You may be lieing to YOURSELF about why. Something you should consider.

Recently my church took a list of names of people who had not been in attendance for years. An organized effort is underway to meet with those who are willing to meet to help them in whatever way we can. There are formal requirements that need to be met, as per the General Conference guidelines, before members names are officially removed from the books. This is not really a big deal, it's just common sense, and in THIS thread, a "red herring".

[Overaged]

Yes, you are right - it is a red herring...