CoAspen Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 Okay, this ain't rocket science! People around this forum sound off quite often about 'labeling' others, lib, conserv, dem, repub or what ever, saying that it shouldn't be done. Yet a certain few seem rather keen on defining, asking or saying, who is a real SDA and who isn't. AS Tom W said, it only separates people, not bring to gather. It has even gone so far that some are labeling dead people as SDA or not! Say what! Again, not rocket science! If a person is a member of a particular church, Baptist, RC, Lutheran, Mormon, then that's who they are!! This 'real' business has one purpose and one purpose only, to decide which 'pigeon hole' to put people into. Any 'drive by' could see and understand that. The question that is not being addressed is "why is this a continueing need for some to define"? Any one dare to give a 'real answer'? (no pun intended)(i'm real..are you real?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 I wonder who does know, then, if not SDAs. Do non-SDAs know better? Originally Posted By: miz3 1. I don't think non SDA know better. OK, then that means SDAs know better what an SDA is. And what do SDAs say an SDA is? Is there any publication (or perhaps a sermon) on the topic that you would recommend as a true description of what it means to be a Seventh-day Adventist? Are you yourself a Seventh-day Adventist? This last question is significant in light of your statement that SDAs know better what an SDA is. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 But in another way and you may say it is a generic sense, one who believes in Christ's soon coming again to gather the living and dead in Him and know and keep the Sabbath Holy, not defiling it and are of that Holy Bible and follow it's precepts and not any other guide I see them as a real SDA. What if someone believes that Paul was of Satan and that 2/3 of the NT are inspired by the Devil-- would you say such beliefs are those of a Seventh-day Adventist? Ellen White mentioned about 7 "foundational pillars of our faith." Do you believe these pillars are essential today for SDAs? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 Does the Seventh-day Adventist Church know what an SDA is? Originally Posted By: Kevin H ...Seventh-day Adventism on the other hand was developed by people who were kicked out of their churches because they did not want to go along with what the church told them to do, or to just follow the creeds. They agreed upon a few pillar topics, but wanted a fairly loose confedricy of liberals, moderates and conservative as as long as you accepted the pillars and were not fanatical, there was room for you. What then are the pillars you speak of? And if people reject these pillars, would you say it's irrelevant to the question of whether a person is a Seventh-day Adventist? Originally Posted By: Kevin H ...For me what I find is important to me and "Real Adventist" for me is Mrs. White's philosophy of the Great Cointroversy which consists of the three roles of the Trinity, how their character is reflected in the law of self sacrificing love, how they are attacked by the 3 deceptions of Satan, How these were pressent throughtout the Bible, especially in the life, death and resurection of Jesus, and how the 3 angel's message ties things together. And finally dealth with in the method in how God destroys the lost. I'm wondering if you consider what you've said here as merely your subjective opinion. Do you believe those who reject Ellen White's philosophy and the 3 angel's messages are still REAL Seventh-day Adventists? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 I'll just reiterate what I said earlier: there are no good answers because it's a bad question. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 .... If a person is a member of a particular church, Baptist, RC, Lutheran, Mormon, then that's who they are!! OK, that's one definition: a person is a Seventh-day Adventist if he is a member of the SDA Church. If, then, a person is not a member, he/she is not a REAL Adventist. Originally Posted By: CoAspen This 'real' business has one purpose and one purpose only, to decide which 'pigeon hole' to put people into. The real business as far as I'm concerned is simply to find out what people here on ClubAdventist believe a Seventh-day Adventist is. But your statement suggests that you believe you can read people's motives. Originally Posted By: CoAspen Any 'drive by' could see and understand that. Drive-bys don't generally understand the issues being discussed-- or have a superficial understanding of it-- because they don't spend enough time reading the posts. I think we need to be more interested in the persons who are truly concerned with the question of what a Seventh-day Adventist is. I'm sure there are many people who visit ClubAdventist who are asking this question and want to find answers. We have a lot of people coming here who know practically nothing about SDAs. Why should we add to their perplexity and confusion by refusing to discuss it or by telling them that the very question itself is somehow bad. Originally Posted By: CoAspen The question that is not being addressed is "why is this a continueing need for some to define"? Any one dare to give a 'real answer'? (no pun intended)(i'm real..are you real?) Seems you are only looking for a particular answer and will not accept anything else as a "real answer." What is the answer you want to hear? I think the posts on the topic up to this point show why the discussion is needed. Is there anything more central on an Adventist Forum than knowing what an Adventist is? A good question would also be, Why would anyone be opposed to others talking about the question and seeking answers to it? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 I'll just reiterate what I said earlier: there are no good answers because it's a bad question. Why is it a bad question? Is it because it causes division? What then is a good question? Are there any good ones that can be asked regarding what an SDA is? Jesus said, "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. [35] For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. [36] And a person's enemies will be those of his own household. {Matt. 10: 33-36} Isn't Jesus saying that there are times when causing division is appropriate and desirable? Does truth itself ever cause division? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 11, 2011 Members Share Posted November 11, 2011 I'll just reiterate what I said earlier: there are no good answers because it's a bad question. Even though I agree 100% with John, I do agree that it's a bad question, because there are many different SDA who would come up with many different replies. But there has to be a commonness somewhere, like the Sabbath, the 10 Cs, etc. Certain core values would have to be within each Adventist's beliefs. The problem I see, is some want only there opinion to be the correct one. They just like throwing out this and that to do exactly what Tom is posting, to further divide and conquor(sp). phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 It's a bad question because, despite the claims of some, it's purely subjective and personal. There *is* and *can be* no 100% solid, empirical, objective answer to the question. Given that, what we get is individuals taking their personal prejudices and using them to oppress others. There is very, very great difference between *Jesus* dividing people and us doing it. And incidentally, when he does divide people, what criteria does he use? Not those ones. Being a 'real' Adventist doesn't save us. At best it gets us into a club, but if it's a club that doesn't save us, what's the point. Being a follower of Jesus, that's where it's at. All else boils down to excuses to feel better than our fellowman... which is the *opposite* of what Jesus told us to do. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 11, 2011 Share Posted November 11, 2011 I think your speaking of "christianity" in general, as I see it Bravus. The question is reasonable, the definitions are found within the group in question. Who is a "real Mason"? Get out their guide book and compare the stated beliefs with what the professed Mason believes. It should be clear in short order, he is, or he isn't, a Mason. If he is actually a member and has some serious issues with the "guide book" the group may have remove his membership! No different with "real Adventists", they believe the foundational doctrines and accept the church manual as the definition. They are members of the organization. I don't go around calling myself a Mason, because I'm not! Defining a Christian, now thats a different story! There can be no 100% solid, empiriacal, objective answer on that. The guide book, the bible, can be interpreted a 1,000 different ways, as demonstrated by a 1,000 different churches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 To some extent I agree - and I may have been painting with too broad a brush. On the other hand, there are a *whole* lot of cultural pieces that aren't in the 28 that are nonetheless used to define 'real SDAs'. Things on music and jewellery, for example - details on swimming on Sabbath. If we limit it to just 'accepts the 28 in detail' or even broaden it to 'accepts the Church Manual in detail', then I guess one can define it tightly... though I reckon there is still a fair bit of grey around the edges in interpreting those rules. But on the third hand (hey, I'm a sci-fi guy!), what do we gain? It just seems to me like a bootless question: it's possible to answer, but so what? What does being a 'real SDA' gain for us, since it does not gain us salvation? It just seems like a distraction from the main goal of life. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 ....there are a *whole* lot of cultural pieces that aren't in the 28 that are nonetheless used to define 'real SDAs'. Things on music and jewellery, for example - details on swimming on Sabbath. If we limit it to just 'accepts the 28 in detail' or even broaden it to 'accepts the Church Manual in detail', then I guess one can define it tightly... But does swimming on Sabbath or music and jewellery define who is a real SDA? Those are peripheral issues. This does not mean they are irrelevent issues, but they don't determine whether a person is a Seventh-day Adventist. Two of my daughters wear jewellery but that has nothing to do with the question of their being an Adventist. It has to do with maturity and education and Christian growth. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 11, 2011 Members Share Posted November 11, 2011 On the other hand, there are a *whole* lot of cultural pieces that aren't in the 28 that are nonetheless used to define 'real SDAs'. Things on music and jewellery, for example - details on swimming on Sabbath. I agree, but that's where the gray area's of being an SDA come in. Where some will say I go swimming, others will say I don't. Some say wearing jewellery is wrong, others will say no way, etc., I believe these difference's do not define what an SDA is, they define our relationship with God/Jesus. Like I mentioned before there are core doctrines that define SDA, on those I'd say there needs to be some unity on, but those others like music, jewellery, etc., I don't think so. At least in my opinion. phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 11, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 11, 2011 John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Okay, this ain't rocket science!People around this forum sound off quite often about 'labeling' others, lib, conserv, dem, repub or what ever, saying that it shouldn't be done. Yet a certain few seem rather keen on defining, asking or saying, who is a real SDA and who isn't. AS Tom W said, it only separates people, not bring to gather. It has even gone so far that some are labeling dead people as SDA or not! Say what! Again, not rocket science! If a person is a member of a particular church, Baptist, RC, Lutheran, Mormon, then that's who they are!! This 'real' business has one purpose and one purpose only, to decide which 'pigeon hole' to put people into. Any 'drive by' could see and understand that. The question that is not being addressed is "why is this a continueing need for some to define"? Any one dare to give a 'real answer'? (no pun intended)(i'm real..are you real?) You know though CoAspen it sure is exercising peoples minds to think and that is good as not enough think for themselves anymore and lean on someone they hold in esteem which in most cases isn't Jesus and what He says. What we are striving for as I can see is unity in the truth as it is Jesus Christ and all other words must be brought to His Word and tried. Hey to all, let's go after the Truth, let it cut where it will and that can only be good. Yes oh yes that truth can stand and invites investigation, let's not stop that. There's an old saying "as a matter of fact I love onions". Ha ha. But "as a matter of fact I love Truth above all things" and that is a fact. Blessings to all this Holy Sabbath Day. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Gibs with all due heart felt respect and sadness I must conclude on your above testimony, your NOT a Seventh-day Adventist. What you are, is an off shoot. You PROFESS to be a Seventh-day Adventist but you have withdrawn your support from the ONE church upon whom God bestows His supreme affection. By your actions you are calling others out of God's church to do the same. I have no doubt you are very sincere,,,, and sincerely mistaken. I've just come from a thread that talks about "why I am not an adventist"....and I see this.... This is the reason that I get so upset with my own people...who lack grace to agree upon points that both agree upon. Just how white does a world have to be to be declared "pure white"...Are there no greys in this world? this response is just plain shameful.... And before you tell me that "It's THE TRUTH!"...let me remind you that "truth without kindness is cruelty"....And that is not the truth that Jesus had....Just look at how He dealt with the woman at the well. must we all be filled with shame again..... Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 OK, please explain what a real Adventist is. A real Adventist is a person made by Jesus to reflect His character, and His values. If you are honest, and are doing that, then you are a real adventist.... Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 OK, please explain what a real Adventist is. A real Adventist is a person made by Jesus to reflect His character, and His values. If you are honest, and are doing that, then you are a real adventist.... But couldn't the same be said of a Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, etc.? Are all these therefore also "real Adventists"? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 If YOU are honest with yourself [aka "if you are honest and doing that"]........ Who gave you permission to look at others and judge them? I think I can honestly say that I have enough on my plate without telling others if they are "real adventists" or not.... Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibs Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Hamilton, You reply to me, Gibs with all due heart felt respect and sadness I must conclude on your above testimony, your NOT a Seventh-day Adventist. What you are, is an off shoot. You PROFESS to be a Seventh-day Adventist but you have withdrawn your support from the ONE church upon whom God bestows His supreme affection. By your actions you are calling others out of God's church to do the same. I have no doubt you are very sincere,,,, and sincerely mistaken. My response is this, I can not and will not support error. Many continue to do so and defend it with their lives but that is their choice. Luther wouldn't support the error he saw and you commend him or would you as a faithful Catholic stand that the church can do no wrong? A faithful Catholic also believes God bestows His supreme affection upon it. What do you think of the NLP, Lab 1,2,3 and just believe and you are saved and Theistic evolution that came in and the latest emerging church thelology and there is more like the sell out to Barnhouse and Martin in the 1950's so as not to be called a cult by them and get the praise of the world. Just like the scripture states there has been a falling away and a coming to love false doctrine and having teachers to keep up the love of it. 2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. 2Th 2:3 ¶ Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; That son of perdition is Satan and coming soon personating Jesus Christ. 1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. A Freeman In Jesus Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Interesting topic but I don't see much consensus. Could it be as we get closer and closer to end time events it will be less and less important to have the label "Real Adventist" and more and more important to have a vital connection with our Saviour? Think of the perhaps millions from Adam onward who have never heard the word SDA yet will make up the citizens of heaven. I think we are a very small fraction. Or perhaps will we be going around saying, Lord, Lord what what is he/she doing here, they were not a "Real Adventist"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 12, 2011 Members Share Posted November 12, 2011 Interesting topic but I don't see much consensus. Could it be as we get closer and closer to end time events it will be less and less important to have the label "Real Adventist" and more and more important to have a vital connection with our Saviour? Think of the perhaps millions from Adam onward who have never heard the word SDA yet will make up the citizens of heaven. I think we are a very small fraction. Or perhaps will we be going around saying, Lord, Lord what what is he/she doing here, they were not a "Real Adventist"? phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Gibs the "arguments" you present here as to why the Seventh-day Adventist church is in "apostasy" do not reconcile with the official position of the General Conference. What you've got here is a few people you don't kike within the church and have carried that idea forward to support your own apostasy, name calling and denigration of Gods chosen people. Apostasy doesn't have to be a bad word, I'm glad I apostized from the Mormon church! I'm sad that Gibs has apostized from the Adventist church. "What do you think of the NLP, Lab 1,2,3 and just believe and you are saved and Theistic evolution." What is the official position of the Seventh-day Adventist church on these issues Gibs? If your honest you will find that there is no confusion, no support for these concepts. Look again, and look a little higher, look to Jesus my friend and stop looking at people. So, Hamilton, are YOU a Seventh-day Adventist? If not why not, I'd like to know. Monty, many will think and say they do in fact have a close connection with Jesus, more so as we approach the end. How will we know? By testing all things, holding fast that which is good. Not some "feeling", but truth based on principle, not what we see, here, feel. Jesus will say to many of those who "profess" to know Him, "I know you not." If Adam were alive today, he would be a Seventh-day Adventist. It's as simple as that, truth is progressive. Luther had only "enough" for his time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2011 My response is this, I can not and will not support error. What do you think of the NLP, Lab 1,2,3 and just believe and you are saved and Theistic evolution that came in and the latest emerging church thelology and there is more like the sell out to Barnhouse and Martin in the 1950's so as not to be called a cult by them and get the praise of the world. Nothing matters to me more than truth. Pardon my ignorance, but what is NLP, and Lab 1,2,3? What of the 28 fundamental doctrines are in error? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2011 If YOU are honest with yourself [aka "if you are honest and doing that"]........ Who gave you permission to look at others and judge them? I think I can honestly say that I have enough on my plate without telling others if they are "real adventists" or not.... Not sure what post of mine you are referring to. Perhaps you're responding to someone else. Be that as it may, it sounds like you think the church doesn't have the right or the responsibility to decide whether people are real SDAs or not. Yet it's very importarnt for the church to know who its members are and whether they are rightly representing Christ and the church. We can't and shouldn't try to judge people's salvation or their motives, but the Bible clearly gives Christians the duty of deciding issues of right and wrong, and that includes judging whether other people's words and behavior are good or not. 1 Cor. 5:9-13 I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— [10] not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. [11] But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of sexual immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or swindler—not even to eat with such a one. [12] For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? [13] God judges those outside. "Purge the evil person from among you." 1 Cor. 15:33 Do not be deceived: "Bad company ruins good morals." At the same time, we need to be understanding, forgiving and thoughtful toward others and treat them in the same way that we want them to treat us. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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