"Real Adventists"

[John317]

... Could it be as we get closer and closer to end time events it will be less and less important to have the label "Real Adventist" and more and more important to have a vital connection with our Saviour?

As we draw closer to the time of Christ's appearing, it will be even more important for Seventh-day Adventists to have a clear understanding and conviction of who they are and why they are Seventh-day Adventists. There's no reason for this to conflict with the importance of maintaining a vital connection with Jesus Christ. In fact, the two go together.

[John317]

...What do you think of the NLP, Lab 1,2,3 and just believe and you are saved and Theistic evolution that came in and the latest emerging church thelology and there is more like the sell out to Barnhouse and Martin in the 1950's so as not to be called a cult by them and get the praise of the world.

Are these the issues that caused you to depart from the Seventh-day Adventist Church? If so, why?

I am opposed also to those things, and I know many others who are as well, but I fail to see how they would compel anyone to feel they must leave the SDA Church. Could you explain?

[John317]

Gibs with all due heart felt respect and sadness I must conclude on your above testimony, your NOT a Seventh-day Adventist. What you are, is an off shoot. You PROFESS to be a Seventh-day Adventist but you have withdrawn your support from the ONE church upon whom God bestows His supreme affection. By your actions you are calling others out of God's church to do the same.

I have no doubt you are very sincere,,,, and sincerely mistaken.

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

...This is the reason that I get so upset with my own people...who lack grace to agree upon points that both agree upon...

this response is just plain shameful....

And before you tell me that "It's THE TRUTH!"...let me remind you that "truth without kindness is cruelty"....must we all be filled with shame again.....

Actually, I see ClubV12's post as filled with loving concern for a fellow believer in Christ who is in spiritual danger. We have a duty to be honest with people and to tell them the truth as we see it. Telling the truth with love is far more important than avoiding the truth because of concern over someone's momentary feelings.

If someone feels that I am in spiritual danger and they feel impressed by the Holy Spirit to warn me, I would want them to write to me in the same way that ClubV12 wrote in his post to Brother Gibs.

[monty]

ClubV12 I think your strident approach souunds good on the surface but has an underlining narrow exlusive view. Now as we speak in Asia, China, India and elsewhere people are being persecuted for their faith. Physical assaults, burning of churches, immprisionment and even murder. Yet these people are not SDA. What they are doing is living up to the light they have and very courageously. It is not so easy to place a true believer in a denominational box and define him according to our narrow view.

[monty]

John 317 I concur the two go together but only if the church is holding high the standard of biblical "truth".

[John317]

I agree that the church should always hold the standard high. But if the church appears not to be holding the standard high enough, does that mean we should leave the church? (I ask because some apparently think so.) Or does it mean we ourselves have an even more urgent responsibility to hold the standard high?

[John317]

I especially like what you say about the other Chrisians who are being persecuted in Asia. Are you also thinking of the Coptic Christians of Egypt and the Christians of Iraq? We do need to keep these brothers and sisters in Christ in our prayers.

[ClubV12]

Monty I'm just addressing the very narrow scope of the question this thread asks. What IS a real Adventist?

The question is NOT, who are Christians? Thats a different and much broader question. Those folks you referrence in Asia, China, India being persecuted for their faith may very well be christians and Gods own people. But they may or may not be "Seventh-day Adventists", which IS a narrow question. My position has not changed from the first page, if your not a member of the Seventh-day Adventist your church, your not a real Seventh-day Adventist.

If your not a member, why not? If you were a member, why did you leave? If you are a member and teaching doctrine that opposes the fundamental views of the Adventist church, who are you lieing to (besides yourself)? Is it OK to for ANYBODY who claims to be believe in Christs Second Coming and keeps the Sabbath to call themselves Seventh-day Adventist? If so, how come 7th Day Baptists don't call themselves Adventists? How come Shepherds Rods don't? If we have NO standards, why can't Catholics claim the title?

Fact is, we do have standards, minimum standards, beyond that ethical and moral standards. I'm not impressed when people come to this forum and "claim" to be Seventh-day Adventists when they are CLEARLY NOT! It's like lieing to my face. Have these folks no moral compass at all? Have they fallen so low that a lie doesn't bother them? How sad is that, wolves in sheep clothing!

[monty]

John317.....On the whole I think not leaving is right, however that said (ask me how I know) there are times when the atmosphere of the local chuch is so caustic and dysfunctional that for ones mental health and balance it is prudent to cease attendance.

[monty]

ClubV12....Thank You for keeping on target regarding the topic of this thread. I certainly agree there needs to be "at least" minimum standards most importantly based on a correct interpretation of Gods word.

[Overaged]

Being a 'real' Adventist doesn't save us. At best it gets us into a club, but if it's a club that doesn't save us, what's the point.

[Overaged]

Fact is, we do have standards, minimum standards, beyond that ethical and moral standards. I'm not impressed when people come to this forum and "claim" to be Seventh-day Adventists when they are CLEARLY NOT! It's like lieing to my face. Have these folks no moral compass at all? Have they fallen so low that a lie doesn't bother them? How sad is that, wolves in sheep clothing!

By "minimum standards;" you appear to be referencing a list of certain "adventist doctrines." Am I reading you correctly?

[Dr. Rich]

In the end the question of this thread leads to division and not unity.

Exactly!

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

In the end the question of this thread leads to division and not unity.

Exactly!

Well; I sort of disagree with you both. The question of this thread may, in some instances, cause division; however, it must be noted that one of the things that some people get all divided about is how the Adventist Church teaches "unity in divsersity." And so in this topic. Diversity of opinion is not = to "division."

Although all that being said, Tom is quite correct. Too many do divide over this kind of thing.

[ClubV12]

I don't have a problem with division, neither did Jesus. The time we are in now is just a warm up exercise, when the true shaking comes along we will see massive division. No doubt with calls from the pulpit, by Adventist Pastors, urging the membership to accept the Sunday laws in the spirit of "unity". Will this be a reason to leave the church when that happens? CERTAINLY NOT!!! There will NEVER be a reason. It will be a call to stand firm in the face of adversity when other members of the church are calling you a fanatic, and worse. Stand your ground, STAY in the church no matter what. THOSE who do not follow Jesus will soon be revealed, leave, and you WILL join them in due time.

We need to press together, we need to find unity, but not to a false god, unity with unbelievers is impossible, a pipe dream. Division is reality.

Overaged, (or is it Outraged now? Ha Ha), yes I am most definitely referring to fundamental Adventist doctrinal points as a minimum standard. In order to be baptized you HAVE to meet certain minimum standards by accepting certain doctrines of the church. Like the Sabbath, to say the very least! To stay in the church, in good standing as a member, you have to live up to certain minimum doctrinal points. Like not working on the Sabbath without good cause. There are about a dozen specific reasons in the church manual that are a cause for disfellowshiping, these are the absolute minimum requirements to maintain your membership within the church.

I'm sure Dr. Rich has studied each and every point in the church manual under the heading of "Reasons for Dissfellowship". I would hazard a guess, he has that section committed to memory, and has figured out a good lawyer defense argument to each and every one. :)

[Overaged]

Overaged, (or is it Outraged now? Ha Ha), yes I am most definitely referring to fundamental Adventist doctrinal points as a minimum standard. In order to be baptized you HAVE to meet certain minimum standards by accepting certain doctrines of the church. Like the Sabbath, to say the very least! To stay in the church, in good standing as a member, you have to live up to certain minimum doctrinal points. Like not working on the Sabbath without good cause. There are about a dozen specific reasons in the church manual that are a cause for disfellowshiping, these are the absolute minimum requirements to maintain your membership within the church.

I'm sure Dr. Rich has studied each and every point in the church manual under the heading of "Reasons for Dissfellowship". I would hazard a guess, he has that section committed to memory, and has figured out a good lawyer defense argument to each and every one.

I think you are being unfair to Dr Rich. He keeps coming back to our forum, for eg, and I am sure he sees all the "division;" as you call it. But some of it is just diversity. The two words are not equal. And as Dr Rich did say in another thread that he does get something out of coming here; you should be more welcoming to him...We are talking about a man who likely has thought everything inside out and then some - something more of us could stand to do. (Isa 1:18)

I would like to see a complete list from you of the doctrines we "must accept," in order to be a "true Adventist," please. I find your staement about this quite disturbing. Hopefully, if you provide a list, with references, I will be able to explain better why I say this.

[John317]

In the end the question of this thread leads to division and not unity.

Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich

Exactly!

So, then, you two are firmly agreed on this, of course. Figures. :-)

[Overaged]

Why do you say "Figures" like that?

[John317]

I don't have a problem with division, neither did Jesus. The time we are in now is just a warm up exercise, when the true shaking comes along we will see massive division. No doubt with calls from the pulpit, by Adventist Pastors, urging the membership to accept the Sunday laws in the spirit of "unity". Will this be a reason to leave the church when that happens? CERTAINLY NOT!!! There will NEVER be a reason. It will be a call to stand firm in the face of adversity when other members of the church are calling you a fanatic, and worse. Stand your ground, STAY in the church no matter what. THOSE who do not follow Jesus will soon be revealed, leave, and you WILL join them in due time.

We need to press together, we need to find unity, but not to a false god, unity with unbelievers is impossible, a pipe dream. Division is reality.

AMEN!!

[John317]

Why do you say "Figures" like that?

I mean that for me it's predictable.

[ClubV12]

No worries about Dr. Rich, it is evident he can take care of himself.

Overaged says,

"I would like to see a complete list from you of the doctrines we "must accept," in order to be a "true Adventist".

Have you ever seen a baptismal vow pamphlet? Did you ever take such a vow and were baptized into the Seventh-day Adventist church?

Here is a link to the thirteen vows, which might be helpful for anyone on this thread considering what a "real Adventist" stands for. Study them carefully and you will find several of the Adventists fundamenatal doctrines contained within.

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Adventist_baptismal_vow

There is an alternate or optional vow some Pastors may elect to present to new Adventists. Question #2, of the alternate, asks if you believe and will live your life in accordance with the 28 fundamental beliefs of Adventists. If you don't accept the 28 membership may be denied by the church body voting on your membership approval during church. Assuming the Pastor will even baptize you in the first place, which he likely won't.

[John317]

...Here is a link to the thirteen vows, which might be helpful for anyone on this thread considering what a "real Adventist" stands for.

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Adventist_baptismal_vow

Those are wonderful biblical truths. Thanks for the link to them, Club.

Quote:

The 13 baptismal vows are:

1. Do you believe in God the Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit?

2. Do you accept the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of men, and believe that through faith in His shed blood men are saved from sin and its penalty?

3. Renouncing the world and its sinful ways, have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, and do you believe that God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven your sins and given you a new heart?

4: Do you accept by faith the righteousness of Christ, recognizing Him as your Intercessor in the heavenly sanctuary, and do you claim His promise to strengthen you by His indwelling Spirit, so that you may receive power to do His will?

5. Do you believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, and that it constitutes the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian?

6. Do you accept the Ten Commandments as still binding upon Christians; and is it your purpose, by the power of the indwelling Christ, to keep this law, including the fourth commandment, which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord?

7. Is the soon coming of Jesus the blessed hope in your heart, and are you determined to be personally ready to meet the Lord, and to do all in your power to witness to His loving salvation, and by life and word to help others to be ready for His glorious appearing?

8. Do you accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and do you believe that the gift of prophecy in the remnant church is one of the identifying marks of that church?

9. Do you believe in church organization, and is it your purpose to support the church by your tithes and offerings, your personal effort, and influence?

10. Do you believe that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that you are to honor God by caring for your body, avoiding the use of that which is harmful, abstaining from all unclean foods, from the use, manufacture, or sale of alcoholic beverages, the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption, and from the misuse of, or trafficking in, narcotics or other drugs?

11. Knowing and understanding the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, is it your purpose, by the grace of God, to order your life in harmony with these principles?

12. Do you accept the New Testament teaching of baptism by immersion, and do you desire to be so baptized as a public expression of your faith in Christ and in the forgiveness of your sins?

13. Do you believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire membership in this local congregation of the world church?

[M. T. Cross]

There are about a dozen specific reasons in the church manual that are a cause for disfellowshiping, these are the absolute minimum requirements to maintain your membership within the church.

Funny, when I got kicked out at the age of 19 the reason that was given to me.

See I smoked, drank, did drugs, was in a metal band, wore make up, had long hair, was fornicating like a rabid bunny on super amped viagra. But none of these well known facts was the reason I was given.

See I was not paying tithe from the income I didn't have. I got a nice little letter stating that since I had moved and had not registered with a new church and began tithing to that church my name was to be taken off the books. I was also told that since the author of the letter was aware that my personal relationship to Jesus meant everything to me it would be in my best intrest to get myself registered in a local church and pay to God what was Gods.

It seems that 10% of salvation is too come out of your pocketbook.

[Overaged]

No worries about Dr. Rich, it is evident he can take care of himself.

Overaged says,

"I would like to see a complete list from you of the doctrines we "must accept," in order to be a "true Adventist".

Have you ever seen a baptismal vow pamphlet? Did you ever take such a vow and were baptized into the Seventh-day Adventist church?

Here is a link to the thirteen vows, which might be helpful for anyone on this thread considering what a "real Adventist" stands for. Study them carefully and you will find several of the Adventists fundamenatal doctrines contained within.

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Adventist_baptismal_vow

There is an alternate or optional vow some Pastors may elect to present to new Adventists. Question #2, of the alternate, asks if you believe and will live your life in accordance with the 28 fundamental beliefs of Adventists. If you don't accept the 28 membership may be denied by the church body voting on your membership approval during church. Assuming the Pastor will even baptize you in the first place, which he likely won't.

Alright, thanks for clarifying the doctrines we must believe in to be a "real Adventist."

But now I have quite a few questions for you.

I'll just start with two questions.

1/ Would the baptismal candidate not be a "real Adventist" if they were to choose the "Alternative Vow" listed at the link you provided, with just 3 points?

2/ Why do you say a real Adventist has to choose just this 13 doctrines? We have 28 fundamental Beliefs, which are called "fundamental" for a reason. Any baptism I have ever been to including my own, the Pastor usually uses these.

You know; I love a lot of your posts brother - I learn lots from reading what you write; but I am going to come right out and say that I totally disagree with what you are saying about what it takes to be a "real Adventist." (and yes; John 317 is right they are wonderful truths).

So far; I am reading that you are saying we must believe in these 13 doctrines to be a real Adventist." Is there anything else that you would want to add to this? (just so I know if I am understanding you correctly).

3/ LOL, sorry. I need to slip a third question in here. I also have a problem with people saying there is a difference between "Adventist" and "Christian." What would you say about this?

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

...Here is a link to the thirteen vows, which might be helpful for anyone on this thread considering what a "real Adventist" stands for.

http://www.enotes.com/topic/Adventist_baptismal_vow

Those are wonderful biblical truths. Thanks for the link to them, Club.

Quote:

The 13 baptismal vows are:

1. Do you believe in God the Father, in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Spirit?

2. Do you accept the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary as the atoning sacrifice for the sins of men, and believe that through faith in His shed blood men are saved from sin and its penalty?

3. Renouncing the world and its sinful ways, have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, and do you believe that God, for Christ's sake, has forgiven your sins and given you a new heart?

4: Do you accept by faith the righteousness of Christ, recognizing Him as your Intercessor in the heavenly sanctuary, and do you claim His promise to strengthen you by His indwelling Spirit, so that you may receive power to do His will?

5. Do you believe that the Bible is God's inspired word, and that it constitutes the only rule of faith and practice for the Christian?

6. Do you accept the Ten Commandments as still binding upon Christians; and is it your purpose, by the power of the indwelling Christ, to keep this law, including the fourth commandment, which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath of the Lord?

7. Is the soon coming of Jesus the blessed hope in your heart, and are you determined to be personally ready to meet the Lord, and to do all in your power to witness to His loving salvation, and by life and word to help others to be ready for His glorious appearing?

8. Do you accept the Biblical teaching of spiritual gifts, and do you believe that the gift of prophecy in the remnant church is one of the identifying marks of that church?

9. Do you believe in church organization, and is it your purpose to support the church by your tithes and offerings, your personal effort, and influence?

10. Do you believe that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that you are to honor God by caring for your body, avoiding the use of that which is harmful, abstaining from all unclean foods, from the use, manufacture, or sale of alcoholic beverages, the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any of its forms for human consumption, and from the misuse of, or trafficking in, narcotics or other drugs?

11. Knowing and understanding the fundamental Bible principles as taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church, is it your purpose, by the grace of God, to order your life in harmony with these principles?

12. Do you accept the New Testament teaching of baptism by immersion, and do you desire to be so baptized as a public expression of your faith in Christ and in the forgiveness of your sins?

13. Do you believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is the remnant church of Bible prophecy, and that people of every nation, race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire membership in this local congregation of the world church?

Thus, if you cannot agree with every jot or tittel(sp?) are you John317 saying that such a person is NOT a "Real SDA"?