Why I am a former SDA

[Bravus]

The topic came up in another thread, and rather than derail that one I thought I'd start a new one.

This is not about bashing Seventh-day Adventism (and I hope, but can't guarantee, that it's not about bashing me either!) It's just about explaining a little of my journey.

First, the chronology - but don't jump the gun and start looking for the reasons here, they'll be discussed later.

Like the vast majority of former Adventists in the survey that I recently posted about, I was born into the denomination. My grandparents had converted and had served the church faithfully throughout their lives. My parents continued to do so, and I was sent to Adventist schools and an active church participant. I was baptised at 12, after excellent baptisimal classes.

I was married in the church, and have worked as a 'missionary', teaching at a college in Papua New Guinea. I have preached perhaps 20 or more sermons over the years, and been on Church Boards and taught the lesson and so on.

We enjoyed Epping church very much when we were in Sydney, the Pacific Adventist College church in PNG and then Fremantle church when we moved to Perth. Fremantle was an excellent church, very friendly and supportive, and we were very involved in it.

When we moved to Edmonton for my job we started going to Red Willow church, which was also very good. For the first couple of years we were there there was no pastor, so the lay people ran the church and preached the sermons. There was a good variety of topics and approaches and a fair bit of creativity. When a pastor did arrive, he was good, but he preached most weeks, and some of that creativity and innovation went out of the place. We still attended regularly until we moved back to Australia.

Once we got here we tried a number of SDA congregations in the area but none really 'fitted' us, due to a variety of factors, including worship style but also perceived authenticity. Make of this what you will.

We started going to the non-denominational Christian church that our absolutely lovely Christian neighbours (the most genuine, loving and caring people I have ever met, and amazing ambassadors for Christ) attended, and did that for about a year. We took on roles in that congregation, but in the end it kind of fell apart for us in that it was an endless round of programs and concert-like church services that didn't seem to lead anywhere.

We moved to a local Baptist church that was also very good, and very welcoming. I think we kind of drifted out over a few years, across multiple congregations, and gradually stopped going to this one perhaps a couple of years ago. As of now my wife, Sue, is quite devout in her own studies and beliefs but neither of us attend a church.

One part of it was that more and more I came to see Christianity - not just Seventh-day Adventism - as in conflict with my values. I have very strong moral and ethical values in relation to equity and respect for all people, and it just seems as though Christians have an unerring ability to jump for the opposite side of every issue. Heh, or, I guess, that I started to jump to the opposite side from Christians.

It might be disturbing to some here to hear it, but this place has also contributed to the developments in my thinking that have led to me now identifying myself as a 'former SDA'. When issues are discussed in detail, both positions and hearts become clearer, and it became clearer to me over time that my heart was not in tune with the positions of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Or, really, of mainstream Christianity either. I've posted links to blog posts of mine in the past in which I've identified as 'post-Christian', and while that label probably introduces as many misconceptions as it solves, it's probably the best one available.

So, on doctrine, I feel that most of the controversies are trivial rather than pivotal to me. Jewellery? Pfft! Get a life! Same with food and drink and Sabbath behaviour and whatever else.

The thing is, I have Biblical texts that back up all of those positions... but the trouble is, others use Biblical texts to back up their exact opposites. Getting beyond my blindness to this has been one huge step forward for me, but forward out of Adventism.

I wish I had my responses to the survey available, because it goes through each of the 28 in detail, and I wrote a good solid paragraph or two in response to each.

The bottom line, for me, is that I can't - am not being allowed to be - both an SDA in good standing and a morally good human being in the world as I have come to understand that. And I have chosen the latter.

I still have great affection for SDAism and SDAs - I come here to converse, not to fight and not because I think my way is 'better' (for anyone but me) and want to proselytise. I come here because I have many friends here, and because I enjoy the conversation.

[Bravus]

In terms of specific issues:

1. I cannot be a recent creationist and remain sane: the evidence is just far too overwhelming in the direction of evolution and long time spans. I'll get push back on this, I always do, but I'm explaining my reasons.

2. Gay people need to love and be loved, get married, be included as full members of the community.

3. Caring for the poor is a massive thrust of the whole Bible and of Jesus (sheep and the goats has nothing at all to do with denominational identification, in fact says it *won't* save you if you don't help the poor) yet I see here again and again how 'Christians' want to side with the rich and clutch their possessions and demonise the poor.

4. PK will probably disagree with me on this, but when I was in church while Israel was bombing the life out of the Palestinian settlements and heard prayed from the front 'Lord be with your people Israel', I just about exploded. People are people, whether they're on the 'right' side or not, and again, it's the oppressed, not the oppressors, we're called on to help.

5. The glee for the destruction of the earth exhibited here and by other Christians. The job God gave us in Eden (metaphorically) was stewardship of the earth, but burning it all down as quickly as possible seems almost to be doctrine these days.

6. Ellen White has some great stuff and some abysmal stuff. Sadly those who use her as a club tend to focus on the latter.

So, I dunno: maybe those are my doctrinal differences. But most of them are more cultural than doctrinal (though some struggle with that distinction). But they're the reasons. By all means decide they're bad reasons *for you*, but you don't get to decide whether my reasons are good *for me*.

[ClubV12]

I appreciate your candid testimony Bravus. Thanks for that.

...of course I disagree, but you knew that already. :)

[Bravus]

Thank you, sir - you demonstrate once more, as you have many times before, that you are a gentleman.

[Bravus]

I'm very happy to discuss any of our points of disagreement with anyone, by the way.

I won't be saying 'SDAism is wrong', I might be saying 'SDAism no longer fits how I have come to understand the issue'.

I won't be saying 'you are a bad person for believing as you do', and I hope others are able to extend that same courtesy to me in our areas of disagreement.

[Gibs]

Bravus,

Like your signature truth is important that is for sure and that is the problem with Christianity today, there is a getting away from the truth. Fellowship we must have but is nothing but a worldly social club if isn't truthful in following Him. I am a solid stickler for the truth as it is in Him and His Word as it is the only thing that sets a man free from the bondage of sin.

You've gotten out of the church and so have I but for an all together different reason that I haven't seen clear from what you have written yet but as time goes on I will.

Also I am new here but have made several comments and threads and you can discover why I left the denomination but not of following my Lord.

I get a lot of heat back sometimes but I never flare heat back because that is not productive. Truth you see can stand investigation and as a matter of fact invites it and if one don't have the truth on something the sooner we find it out the better, praises be to the one enlightening to the Truth.

His Blessings Bravus,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

4. PK will probably disagree with me on this, but when I was in church while Israel was bombing the life out of the Palestinian settlements and heard prayed from the front 'Lord be with your people Israel', I just about exploded. People are people, whether they're on the 'right' side or not, and again, it's the oppressed, not the oppressors, we're called on to help.

LOL, I'd say your picking on me, but I know better, you have been and still are one of the most honest members of this forum. I have always appreciated your candor. And I don't necessarily disagree with you on point 4. I also don't care for Israel bombing others, but I also look to see why this is so. I also agree that not only should we be praying for Israel but also for the Palestinians. I believe that God does take our honesty in to consideration, we definitely need to be honest with ourselves. The other points I'll have to disagree with you on. I do agree that sometimes things come up that are hard to explain, like the age of the earth, the killing in the OT, etc. But that's where faith comes in. Read Hebrews 11. I have to believe that when Jesus comes to get us all these things that we don't understand will be answered to our satisfaction. Anyway just to let you know your still loved, if not by some, at least by me. Hope your having a

[Neil D]

Bravus-

I have never met you, but I will tell you this...from all that you have posted here, you are more of a christian than many that I have seen here....including me...

I've said this somewhere before, and I will say it again...I just get tired of the self-centered religious attitude that has been demonstrated here, and I lash out because of it...For that, I am sorry. I try not to be the "co-dependant" but it does make me sick to see it...

And while we don't see eye to eye on the creation theology, I admit to being scientifically challenged and lack that knowledge...Perhaps there is no reconcilling the science and the theolgical model...I think there is, but I take that on faith...

As for all the other 'complaints' that you've posted here...I see no problem whatsoever....Just another example of a Christian man traveling a road less traveled....It's nice to have the company...careful..try not to step on the Snake River Physa Snail...It's endangered you know....

[abelisle]

I will quote Shakespeare here from Hamlet: " . . . to thine ownself be true . . . "

[Dr. Shane]

I don't believe there is any religion, ideology or other type of belief or non-belief that anyone can sanely embrace with 100% certainty. So I made a decision many years ago that I didn't have to believe something 100% and I refuse to let doubt become a stumbling block for me.

Each of us can choose to believe whatever we want to believe. Some hold up the idea of "truth" as if it prevents us from embracing something unless we are 100% certain. Hogwash. The truth is that there is no 100% certainty. If we are to believe anything, we must learn to live with certain degree of doubt, or resign ourselves to be agnostics who embrace nothing. I don't see Bravus' issues as any reason for anyone to leave the church unless that is what they want to do. Everyone is free to believe what they want.

1. Creation. Kurt Wise makes a very strong case for deciding what a person is going to believe. Richard Dawkins calls him the "honest creationist." It isn't about looking at the evidence and letting my human brain tell me what to believe. Of course each is free to believe what they want, and Kurt Wise makes that point very well. The evidence doesn't tell us what to believe. We decide what we will believe.

2. Gay marriage. Yes, everyone needs love. Giving alcohol to an alcoholic is not love - it is enabling. Telling a gay person to live out the gay lifestyle isn't love either. It is like giving a thirsty man in the desert a tall glass of crystal-clear urine to quench his thirst. Of course many so-called Christians are cold and cruel to gays but not all. I know of two Adventist ministries to help gays. Three of my family members are gay and I *show* them lots of love.

3. Caring for the poor. That is what ADRA and many lay-ministries in the Adventist church do. I grew up on the welfare dime and this church paid my way through years of church school, bought me clothing and brought my poor, alcoholic, drug-addicted, 5-times divorced mother more food baskets than I could count.

4. Political position on Israel. Does the Adventist church have a position? From what I understand the Adventist church believes the Jews are no different than anyone else. Adventists believe in *spiritual* Israel and not literal Israel.

5. Glee for the destruction of the Earth? Sounds like someone that doesn't have access to 3ABN or Hope Channel. Over the past decade the Adventist church has been incorporating more and more environmental issues into our Christian standards of living. From an Adventist preservative, taking care of the Earth is part of good stewardship.

6. Unless someone believes Ellen White was demonically possessed, I don't know why she would make it hard to be an Adventist. There is such a vast range of beliefs on her inspiration so much that one would actually have to be convinced she was a false prophet in order to not fit into Adventist society.

I am sorry to hear about your spiritual struggles, Bravus. I like you and think you are a neat guy but I would not want to exchange places with you for any treasure. I have the peace that passes understanding and it is well with my soul.

[M. T. Cross]

In terms of specific issues:

1. I cannot be a recent creationist and remain sane: the evidence is just far too overwhelming in the direction of evolution and long time spans. I'll get push back on this, I always do, but I'm explaining my reasons.

2. Gay people need to love and be loved, get married, be included as full members of the community.

3. Caring for the poor is a massive thrust of the whole Bible and of Jesus (sheep and the goats has nothing at all to do with denominational identification, in fact says it *won't* save you if you don't help the poor) yet I see here again and again how 'Christians' want to side with the rich and clutch their possessions and demonise the poor.

4. PK will probably disagree with me on this, but when I was in church while Israel was bombing the life out of the Palestinian settlements and heard prayed from the front 'Lord be with your people Israel', I just about exploded. People are people, whether they're on the 'right' side or not, and again, it's the oppressed, not the oppressors, we're called on to help.

5. The glee for the destruction of the earth exhibited here and by other Christians. The job God gave us in Eden (metaphorically) was stewardship of the earth, but burning it all down as quickly as possible seems almost to be doctrine these days.

6. Ellen White has some great stuff and some abysmal stuff. Sadly those who use her as a club tend to focus on the latter.

So, I dunno: maybe those are my doctrinal differences. But most of them are more cultural than doctrinal (though some struggle with that distinction). But they're the reasons. By all means decide they're bad reasons *for you*, but you don't get to decide whether my reasons are good *for me*.

Wow - add in a couple more things and you have all of my reasons too!

[GoLions]

I am sorry that you are leaving the church you grew up in, married in, taught in and preached in. I also left the church that I grew up in, married in...but never taught or preached in. I love the people in my former church, they are my brothers, my sisters and my mother and father. They taught me that the Bible is true, and that you can trust it. I then found that what they were teaching didn't quite measure up to what the plain words of the Bible taught. It was with great, unbelievable caution/sorrow that I decided I must leave that church. I look back on the time with that church with great fondness and love. But like they taught me in my youth, that you can trust what the Bible says. That is why, today, I am a 7th Day Adventist. I have found the teachings to be in concert with what I read in the Bible. That is good enough for me. I am not highly educated in the schools of men, but I consider myself to be a student of the Bible, and life experience has more than confirmed my belief.

I find it very interesting, that the very same church that you are leaving is the very same one that I had to fight sooooo hard to join.

I can never see myself ever ever ever following your foot steps. But I can see my children doing so. I pray not, but it seems so possible.

[CoAspen]

In terms of specific issues:

1. I cannot be a recent creationist and remain sane: the evidence is just far too overwhelming in the direction of evolution and long time spans. I'll get push back on this, I always do, but I'm explaining my reasons.

2. Gay people need to love and be loved, get married, be included as full members of the community.

3. Caring for the poor is a massive thrust of the whole Bible and of Jesus (sheep and the goats has nothing at all to do with denominational identification, in fact says it *won't* save you if you don't help the poor) yet I see here again and again how 'Christians' want to side with the rich and clutch their possessions and demonise the poor.

4. PK will probably disagree with me on this, but when I was in church while Israel was bombing the life out of the Palestinian settlements and heard prayed from the front 'Lord be with your people Israel', I just about exploded. People are people, whether they're on the 'right' side or not, and again, it's the oppressed, not the oppressors, we're called on to help.

5. The glee for the destruction of the earth exhibited here and by other Christians. The job God gave us in Eden (metaphorically) was stewardship of the earth, but burning it all down as quickly as possible seems almost to be doctrine these days.

6. Ellen White has some great stuff and some abysmal stuff. Sadly those who use her as a club tend to focus on the latter.

So, I dunno: maybe those are my doctrinal differences. But most of them are more cultural than doctrinal (though some struggle with that distinction). But they're the reasons. By all means decide they're bad reasons *for you*, but you don't get to decide whether my reasons are good *for me*.

Been a member of the SDA church all my life but I would agree with Bravus on parts of his points...we are not that far apart!

1.Young earth, no! All the records, observations and science that God gave to us say different. But, I am a creationist, meaning, of the life as we know it on earth.

2. Agree except for the marriage part...

3. Totally agree.

4.Agree, although in this world I do see the 'need' for defense of ones country.

5. Totally agree.

6. Agree, although I would not use the 'abysmal' put that she had opinions outside of her inspiration

So, I would have no problem with Bravus being a member of the SDA church. He just isn't that different!!! Sorry Bravus!

[olger]

Appreciate the integrity you display here, David. Sorry for the loss of memories that your decision will mean, but if that is your decision, I respect it. It sounds like the right decision for you at this time.

"Glee for destruction of the earth" is generous hyperbole. I think you are talking more about priorities here, than actual actions.

"Acquaint now thyself with Him and be at peace."

`g

[M. T. Cross]

1. Creation. Kurt Wise makes a very strong case for deciding what a person is going to believe. Richard Dawkins calls him the "honest creationist." It isn't about looking at the evidence and letting my human brain tell me what to believe. Of course each is free to believe what they want, and Kurt Wise makes that point very well. The evidence doesn't tell us what to believe. We decide what we will believe.

[John317]

Jesus told his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it." {Matt. 16: 24, 25}

[BobRyan]

The topic came up in another thread, and rather than derail that one I thought I'd start a new one.

This is not about bashing Seventh-day Adventism (and I hope, but can't guarantee, that it's not about bashing me either!) It's just about explaining a little of my journey.

1. I think you are making the right decision given your preferences.

2. I stated years ago on your origins thread that you were arguing the case as a die hard evolutionist - months to almost a year later you came out and admitted that yes - that is exactly what you have been doing (as if we could not already see it as plain as day).

3. I also stated years ago that I thought you had already checked out on the SDA church back when I posted on your origins folder that you were arguing the SDA side "in name only".

There are a number of evolutionists and non-SDAs on this board arguing their case - so identifying yourself in that group certainly does not exclude you from expressing your views every bit as much as they do on these boards every day.

But it is much more satisfying to express yourself without all the mirrors and facade. Just say what you believe and make no fuss about trying to hide it or deny it.

That is always best for you and best for those who exchange ideas with you.

in Christ,

Bob

[Guest]

I am sorry that you are leaving the church you grew up in, married in, taught in and preached in. I also left the church that I grew up in, married in...but never taught or preached in. I love the people in my former church, they are my brothers, my sisters and my mother and father. They taught me that the Bible is true, and that you can trust it. I then found that what they were teaching didn't quite measure up to what the plain words of the Bible taught. It was with great, unbelievable caution/sorrow that I decided I must leave that church. I look back on the time with that church with great fondness and love. But like they taught me in my youth, that you can trust what the Bible says. That is why, today, I am a 7th Day Adventist. I have found the teachings to be in concert with what I read in the Bible. That is good enough for me. I am not highly educated in the schools of men, but I consider myself to be a student of the Bible, and life experience has more than confirmed my belief.

I find it very interesting, that the very same church that you are leaving is the very same one that I had to fight sooooo hard to join.

I can never see myself ever ever ever following your foot steps. But I can see my children doing so. I pray not, but it seems so possible.

Thank you for sharing this. It was very uplifting for me to read.

[miz3]

In terms of specific issues:

1. I cannot be a recent creationist and remain sane: the evidence is just far too overwhelming in the direction of evolution and long time spans. I'll get push back on this, I always do, but I'm explaining my reasons.

2. Gay people need to love and be loved, get married, be included as full members of the community.

3. Caring for the poor is a massive thrust of the whole Bible and of Jesus (sheep and the goats has nothing at all to do with denominational identification, in fact says it *won't* save you if you don't help the poor) yet I see here again and again how 'Christians' want to side with the rich and clutch their possessions and demonise the poor.

4. PK will probably disagree with me on this, but when I was in church while Israel was bombing the life out of the Palestinian settlements and heard prayed from the front 'Lord be with your people Israel', I just about exploded. People are people, whether they're on the 'right' side or not, and again, it's the oppressed, not the oppressors, we're called on to help.

5. The glee for the destruction of the earth exhibited here and by other Christians. The job God gave us in Eden (metaphorically) was stewardship of the earth, but burning it all down as quickly as possible seems almost to be doctrine these days.

6. Ellen White has some great stuff and some abysmal stuff. Sadly those who use her as a club tend to focus on the latter.

So, I dunno: maybe those are my doctrinal differences. But most of them are more cultural than doctrinal (though some struggle with that distinction). But they're the reasons. By all means decide they're bad reasons *for you*, but you don't get to decide whether my reasons are good *for me*.

Bravus, I have great respect for you.

I appreciated the respect and courtesy you demonstrated and extended to me on your "Origins" Place here at Club Adventist. I must say that you gave me a much fairer hearing than I had received on other Club Adventist Places. I also appreciate the kindness of your helping me hone my thoughts to be more concise, more economical, and more accurately expressed. You were not obligated to do this.

I also found that two other atheist posters who clearly disagreed with me, and still do, also gave me more respect and courtesy than I received from many SDA who post on this Board. I find that interesting to say the least.

I enjoyed that discussion so much and learned some things from you Bravus and also from my two atheist friends even though you and they disagree my creationist views.

As to your points above:

1. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on this hopefully without being disagreeable toward each other.

2. I agree that "gay People" need to be loved and accepted. However, I do not agree that God approves of the "gay life style" or of "practicing the gay life". I believe clearly states that "practicing the gay life style" is a sin and those who practice this lifestyle will not go to heaven.

Having said that "just being gay" is not a sin. I believe there will be gay individuals in heaven who have not practiced the gay life.

I also believe "practicing the gay life" is an Addiction just like being Addicted to any sin and practicing that sins life. Such as, God is against those who "practice the pornographic life style", or those who practice the "lying life style", or those who "practice the adultery life style, etc. Being an Addict of those sins does not prevent you from being saved by God but when you practice those Addictions when you know better will certainly make you Lost.

3. Caring for the "Poor" is certainly a command from God. However being poor is not sign of being "Righteous" and is not a sign of being "Saved". Nor is being "Rich" a sign of being "Lost" and also not a sign of being "Evil".

Sin is not an "economic" state, it is a Spiritual State. The same is true for Righteousness.

The Bible is not about some form of the "Social Gospel" or "Social Justice". The Bible is about Spiritual Justice and Spiritual State.

4. As to the Israel/Palestinian thing I think that is about War/Peace. I am not a peace at any cost person (pacifism). I believe True Peace can only occur when Righteousness is the Big Dog who those who hate Righteousness are afraid to confront.

In addition the absence of War as we know it on this planet will occur only, I repeat only, when God comes again and destroys Sin and all that is connected to it forever. Then we will have lasting Peace.

5. I agree that good Stewardship to the best of our ability is important. However, no matter what humans do even with "good stewardship" it is impossible not to destroy the earth and the Nature that exists in it (a simple test is to look at your own life and see what you are actually willing to do for yourself only to "save the planet). That mean do you live in a house that uses cut down trees. Does your garbage reduce biodegradably. ETC. ETC.

It is again only, and again I repeat only, when God comes again will we be able to have a perfect and lasting environment. Until then we must realize that the Planet is dying no matter what we do. Again that does not mean that we should willy nilly accept all forms of destruction and pollution.

6. As to Ellen White I agree that most of what she wrote was her honest opinion of what she thought was true. Only a small portion of her writings are actually "Inspired in the Biblical sense".

Thank you Bravus.

[BobRyan]

In terms of specific issues:

1. I cannot be a recent creationist and remain sane: the evidence is just far too overwhelming in the direction of evolution and long time spans. I'll get push back on this, I always do, but I'm explaining my reasons.

2. Gay people need to love and be loved, get married, be included as full members of the community.

3. Caring for the poor is a massive thrust of the whole Bible and of Jesus (sheep and the goats has nothing at all to do with denominational identification, in fact says it *won't* save you if you don't help the poor) yet I see here again and again how 'Christians' want to side with the rich and clutch their possessions and demonise the poor.

4. PK will probably disagree with me on this, but when I was in church while Israel was bombing the life out of the Palestinian settlements and heard prayed from the front 'Lord be with your people Israel', I just about exploded. People are people, whether they're on the 'right' side or not, and again, it's the oppressed, not the oppressors, we're called on to help.

5. The glee for the destruction of the earth exhibited here and by other Christians. The job God gave us in Eden (metaphorically) was stewardship of the earth, but burning it all down as quickly as possible seems almost to be doctrine these days.

6. Ellen White has some great stuff and some abysmal stuff. Sadly those who use her as a club tend to focus on the latter.

So, I dunno: maybe those are my doctrinal differences. But most of them are more cultural than doctrinal (though some struggle with that distinction). But they're the reasons. By all means decide they're bad reasons *for you*, but you don't get to decide whether my reasons are good *for me*.

Having set your preferences along those lines - it is right as rain to then observe that such things are not SDA. Why then trouble yourself with the self-conflicted task of having to pretend that the list of choices above is even remotely SDA?

I believe you made the right choice.

in Christ,

Bob

[Neil D]

I am sorry to hear about your spiritual struggles, Bravus. I like you and think you are a neat guy but I would not want to exchange places with you for any treasure. I have the peace that passes understanding and it is well with my soul.

The greatest need and desire for all humans is to be known and to know.

...sometimes that principle can be applied to fellowship, friendship and friends. What I see being posted here is a need to be known by fellows/friends who share the same thoughts and goals...

...what I see in response to that need, is the inability to meet that need by one person, either in church, or on this forum. It would be very good if one/Bravus could have that need met by church,,,unfortunately, it is not to be so....

[Stan]

Joining the Church can be as difficult as leaving it.

Will say more after I arrive home.

No matter what Bravus,, you are always welcome here and in my heart.

[Gail]

AND- Life isn't over till it's over!

What does the Lord require of us? To do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with our God. May that be your journey, Bravus.

Of course you are always welcome here! You are family to us! You know that many of our members here may not be separated from seeking the Lord even though their names are not on the books.

[Dr. Shane]

...what I see in response to that need, is the inability to meet that need by one person, either in church, or on this forum. It would be very good if one/Bravus could have that need met by church,,,unfortunately, it is not to be so....

I have a lot of respect for Bravus as a person and he knows that. You haven't even been here for three months so I will suggest you speak out of turn. I do not know what Bravus' needs are. He may not even know what his needs are. The point I made in my post is that there are many other people that think the same way that he thinks and still choose to remain members of the Adventist church. The relevance of that is that it is Bravus' decision to leave the church and that no one is forcing him out. I am sympathetic to that as I have been in a world of spiritual confusion myself before. It is not pleasant. God has brought me to a much better place now. I certainly wouldn't want to exchange the peace and stability I have now for the confusion and lack of external direction I had then.

[Aliensanctuary]

Quote:

1. I cannot be a recent creationist...

Compared with the knowledge of beings who may have already lived for millions or billions of years, our greatest "science" may only be child's play, or less, to those who can assemble or disassemble atoms and molecules, and even create life from non-life.

Quote:

2. Gay people need to love and be loved...

I don't believe gay marriage was what the LORD had in mind when he created man and woman. Perhaps the cause of gay behavior is external. Perhaps it's genetic. Everyone invited to wash up in the River of Life will be purified of all selfishness and behaviors not permitted in the Kingdom of God.

Quote:

3. Caring for the poor...

Everyone who becomes a permanent member of the Kingdom of God, in the next life, will be "poor", that is, have little, or no, possessions, but whatever they do have will be all that they need to live in peace and health, forever.

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4. ...Israel was bombing the life out of the Palestinian settlements...

Jesus, a Jew, taught us that we should love our enemies and do good for them. It looks like this genetic hatred will exist until the end of time, including all of the blood, tooth, and nail. We could just overlook the homicide bombers and rockets, then blame Israel for all of the trouble. Selfish men cause wars and prolong conflicts.

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5. The glee for the destruction of the earth...

If you can show me how to get to work and back without having to walk several miles or use gasoline, I'd be grateful. And how to get to town to shop for food, doctor appts., etc., more than 70 miles from home. And how to buy food and supplies that aren't already conveniently packaged. And how to stay warm and take warm showers when the outside temperature is below freezing. I'd be content to live in a tent, but I think my wife would call it quits and go somewhere else.

I believe that the next life will go back to simple, and we won't have to worry about all of the stuff we now surround ourselves with, all at a cost to the planet.

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6. Ellen White has some great stuff and some abysmal stuff.

If we believe that she speaks the infallible word of God, we will certainly fall into the ditch before we reach the Kingdom.