Dr. Shane Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 That means you choose to follow your own reasoning and feelings rather than the teachings of the Scriptures. That is exactly what Bravus has been saying from the beginning of this thread. He trusts his own ability to reason more than he trusts the authors of the Bible. However in some areas he is a bit mixed up. Neither the Bible nor the Adventist church teach people to destroy the Earth. Neither the Bible nor the Adventist church teach that Jews are valued more than Palestinians. Neither the Bible nor the Adventist church teach that the poor should be neglected. That is why this thread has focused on evolution and homosexuality. Those are the only two areas where Bravus really has an issue with the Bible and the Adventist church. My point has been that as long as he doesn't insist on trying to convert the church to his way of thinking, he would be free and even welcome to remain in it and even serve others. He is the one that has decided that he doesn't want to be part of us. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 17, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 17, 2011 On the issues of poverty, (geo)politics and the environment, clearly there is considerable scope for some members here to go back to their Bibles. On sexuality and origins (and the roots of those issues in Biblical interpretation), if I was active in a church I would not be willing or able to dissemble or be silent about my true position. Check the .sig Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 On sexuality and origins (and the roots of those issues in Biblical interpretation), if I was active in a church I would not be willing or able to dissemble or be silent about my true position. That is a control issue that you haven't dealt with yet. Most of us want to control our fellows. The slogan "live and let live" is too much for many to grasp. I do not believe that wearing jewelry is a sin. But I never go to church and try to get others to agree with me. The idea that "the truth matters" is an excuse to be a control freak. How much does it really matter? So I should go door to door, pew to pew, take out ads on big billboards telling everyone that wearing jewelry isn't a sin? Does it really matter that much? No. The answer is no. No one forced you to leave the Adventist church. What you are trying to peddle here is the idea that you are of a superior morality than Adventists and thus can no longer belong with them. You love more than Adventists love. You have better grasp of reality. You have a better grasp of the truth. You are so much above Adventists that your moral fiber demands you move onto a better group of people. I don't buy that. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 17, 2011 Share Posted November 17, 2011 Quote: What you are trying to peddle here is the idea that you are of a superior morality than Adventists and thus can no longer belong with them. You love more than Adventists love. You have better grasp of reality. You have a better grasp of the truth. You are so much above Adventists that your moral fiber demands you move onto a better group of people. I don't buy that. Balderdash!!! It is truly amazing the comprehension/reading skills that seem to be lacking at times!! Bravus has never said any of that or insinuated what you claim is in his posts. What are you 'viewing' these or any previous posts with...sunglasses? Or can you just not handle that he is comfortable with his beliefs/decisions? This is an ongoing problem with any one that dares to disagree with the status quo, ie, cardw and atheists/agnostics. Are SDA's that really insecure?? Sheesh!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 18, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 18, 2011 (in reply to Shane) Nope. Telling people the truth about what I believe is not an attempt to control them, it's just being an authentic human being in relationship with other authentic human beings. I'm not willing to wear an uncomfortable mask in order to fit in with people who wouldn't want me around if they saw beneath the mask. No superiority assumed or implied, just difference. Not sure why you're so keen to submerge the real difference. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alchemy Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Blessings Bravus, I hope you will get the time to answer my question about the evidence for evolution, I am truly interested. I do have another question after seeing how this thread is going; Are any of your children LGBT? You don't have to answer, or you can tell me it's none of my business, but I have known of this before with SDA parents. Luke 12:32 NKJV Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 18, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 18, 2011 On the evolution question, I did answer it a few pages back. Will have another go below. It doesn't surprise me that people with a gay child are forced to reconsider their views, when they didn't feel the need to do so for more distant gay people. No, both my daughters are straight. I have some gay friends, and knowing them has helped me think through the issues, but it's about universal human rights rather than special pleading. On evolution, there's a massive amount of evidence. Try talkorigins.org if you want good clear simple primers on a lot of the issues. Before I can really answer your question in any detail I'd need to have some sense of your position: some SDAs believe the universe is old and earth and the life are young, some believe the universe and earth are old and only life is young, some believe everything is young, and so on. Rather than trying to cover the whole vast plethora of issues, it's probably simpler to start with one... and which one will to some extent depend on you and your questions. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Nope. Telling people the truth about what I believe is not an attempt to control them, it's just being an authentic human being in relationship with other authentic human beings. Nope. I have heard that excuse before. I have even used it myself. The truth is we use that excuse because we can't accept that we have a problem with control. Do you tell people how much you weigh? Do you tell them when you last had a bowel movement? Do you tell them when the last time was you had relations with your wife? The answers to all of those questions can be classified as truth and be part of being "authentic". We tell what we want to tell. When we have a difference of opinion we tell it in order to push our beliefs on others. It is all about control. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 What i get from everything Bravus has said in this thread is that he can't continue to be a member of an organization that bases its whole system of belief on a book he does not feel to be more than a moral guideline. Simply put it would be dishonest of him to be a part of that church and to hide his true beliefs. I applaud his desire to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 It is truly amazing the comprehension/reading skills that seem to be lacking at times!! Bravus has never said any of that or insinuated what you claim is in his posts. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 18, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Bravus Nope. Telling people the truth about what I believe is not an attempt to control them, it's just being an authentic human being in relationship with other authentic human beings. Nope. I have heard that excuse before. I have even used it myself. The truth is we use that excuse because we can't accept that we have a problem with control. Do you tell people how much you weigh? Do you tell them when you last had a bowel movement? Do you tell them when the last time was you had relations with your wife? The answers to all of those questions can be classified as truth and be part of being "authentic". We tell what we want to tell. When we have a difference of opinion we tell it in order to push our beliefs on others. It is all about control. If it comes up, yes, I absolutely do tell people what I weigh, what I earn and so on. And the thing is, if I was going to church, these issues would come up. It would not be me raising them, but if someone straight out asked me, I would not lie. And either lying or 'taking the 5th' would be my only options. I think that's pretty simple, isn't it. I'm not saying I'd collar people and cram my beliefs down their throats, but if they asked I would tell the truth. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 What i get from everything Bravus has said in this thread is that he can't continue to be a member of an organization that bases its whole system of belief on a book he does not feel to be more than a moral guideline. I agree. He believes his ability to reason is morally superior than the Bible. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross What i get from everything Bravus has said in this thread is that he can't continue to be a member of an organization that bases its whole system of belief on a book he does not feel to be more than a moral guideline. I agree. He believes his ability to reason is morally superior than the Bible. I would never get that from what he has said. I would get that he does not believe that the Bible is the divine word of God and therefore can not embrace a church that thinks it is. That does not mean he does not embrace many of the great lessons and guidelines it puts forth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 If it comes up, yes, I absolutely do tell people what I weigh, what I earn and so on. Exactly. I don't go around asking people if they believe in evolution or condone homosexuality. And people don't go around asking me if I believe in jewelry. On the few occasions when someone has brought the issue up to me, I humbly tell them I do not agree with the church on that issue but respect those that disagree with me and hope the respect is mutual. When the issue comes up in a Sabbath School lesson, I simply do not participate in that discussion. Not all "truth" is of equal value. If I send a road crew out to post a couple of signs with one that reads "Bumpy Road Ahead" and the other that reads "Bridge Out Ahead" both signs would be stating a "truth". One of those "truths" is obviously more valuable than the other. Truth really has to be important before I am willing to push it onto other people. As far as I am concerned, there are only a few truths that are that important. Creation and homosexuality are not among them. I have family members that are gay. Even though I believe the truth is that God has a better plan for them, I do not feel compelled to tell them that truth. If they want to know my opinion, they will ask me. They haven't asked and I haven't offered. I don't believe I have to tell them what I believe about their lifestyle in order for me to be authentic. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 18, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 18, 2011 In SDA churches on what planet does creationism not come up? I had huge issues at the Red Willow church in Canada because the pastor wanted to draft in my science credibility for his recent creationist sermons! He came looking for me, not vice versa. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 I want to be honest and open and speak the truth as I belive it, just like Bravus! Instead a good ol' boy clap on the back people that speak that kind of truth around here get jeered at, called names and face denigrating comments like "defending the church". Well stop attacking the church then!!!! State your opinon you don't like the church, don't agree with the church, don't beleive the bible, what ever it is. And ALLOW ME TO DO THE SAME. Bravus doesn't deserve any more recognition for "speaking the truth" as he see's it than anybody else on this board! Recently when I offered my OPINION, spoke what I believed was truth, I got a "your a coward behind the keyboard" comment. You nominal Adventists really need to reconsider the "BASHING" you constantly dish out! Let's see how that works in THIS thread, "Bravus, rumor has it your a coward behind the key board." Fair play, that kind of talk goes both ways. I didn't see any moderator say a word when I was called that, so lets get down and just start the name calling if we don't have any rules. ...it will be interesting to see if THIS post gets moderated, how two faced and hypocritical would that be!!! This post copied to a file for future referrence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 18, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 18, 2011 (possibly better to hold individuals to account than whole groups on this point, since most of the groups are pretty diverse. *I* have never attacked or insulted you or anyone) Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 18, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 18, 2011 Shane and Empty Cross, while I appreciate both your efforts on my behalf, you both have slightly the wrong end of the stick. I've said earlier in the thread that I think the Bible, like everything on earth, contains something of Eden and something of the Fall. Something divine and something human. I believe *parts* of the Bible are the word of God, but not all of it. I know that places me at odds with many here, and I'm OK with that. And yes, that does to some extent cast me back on my own judgement as to which bits are which. Unfortunately that is true for everyone, but very few are willing to recognise that it is true. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 18, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 18, 2011 Shane, "No-one can make you feel inferior without your consent" - Eleanor Roosevelt I am absolutely not placing myself above you or anyone. I believe we are all just human beings together, in the mud but looking at the stars, trying to live our lives together. No-one is better or worse, except as our actions make us so. If you're *feeling* as though I'm placing myself above you, therefore, I can only submit that it must be because you are choosing to place yourself below me. I'm just me, getting by the best I can. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 In SDA churches on what planet does creationism not come up? I suspect it comes up with you more often than most because of your profession. However, I suspect if you humbly addressed the issue like I do with jewelry, it would rarely be brought up to you twice by the same person. Certainly it is a "truth" that holds little value. Whether or not someone believes in creation or evolution does not impact their day to day life. It is not an important truth like one's belief on forgiveness, helping the poor or parenting. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 If you're *feeling* as though I'm placing myself above you, therefore, I can only submit that it must be because you are choosing to place yourself below me. Just because I observe that it appears you are trying to place yourself on a higher moral ground than the rest of us does not mean I feel you actually are on such a ground. I don't. In fact, I don't believe there is any higher ground above that of an Adventist, Bible-believing Christian. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Bravus If you're *feeling* as though I'm placing myself above you, therefore, I can only submit that it must be because you are choosing to place yourself below me. Just because I observe that it appears you are trying to place yourself on a higher moral ground than the rest of us does not mean I feel you actually are on such a ground. I don't. In fact, I don't believe there is any higher ground above that of an Adventist, Bible-believing Christian. In advance - what I am about to ask is gonna sound snarky - I don't mean it that way, but better words elude me Are you saying that you think a Bible believing Adventist are better than all that are not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 God is no respector of persons. The rich, the poor, the christian, the atheist. The same laws apply to all equally. Jump off a tall bridge, you gonna die, don't matter who you are. The Spiritual laws also apply equally, christian, Adventist or indian living in the deepest forest. Christians have more light, they are held to a higher standard. The indian in the forest finds that nature testifies of God, he inherently knows right from wrong. A lesser standard but the same rules/laws apply to all. Violate them and you will pay a price, in this world by the laws of Nature and in the next, by the laws of God. Overdose on drugs and die, a law of nature (which is really God's law as well), He is no respector of persons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Are you saying that you think a Bible believing Adventist are better than all that are not? First, not all Adventists are really Christians. Second, I believe the Adventist faith best embraces the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Third, I believe the doctrine of Sola Scriptura creates a belief system which has the highest morality. Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 18, 2011 Share Posted November 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross Are you saying that you think a Bible believing Adventist are better than all that are not? First, not all Adventists are really Christians. Second, I believe the Adventist faith best embraces the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Third, I believe the doctrine of Sola Scriptura creates a belief system which has the highest morality. Cool that makes more sense. I would certainly agree with point one. I don't know about point two - but your belief is just as valid as anyone elses I would definitly disagree with point three Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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