Moderators John317 Posted November 20, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 20, 2011 I don't think anyone actually believes that people aren't going to look at other people. What they mean when they say not to look at people is that we shouldn't expect other human beings to be perfect. Nor should we judge the church by the mistakes that individuals make. We shouldn't look to people around us as our models of what it means to be a Christian. We should always be aware that Christ alone is our true model and that He alone was without sin. Everyone else will disappoint us if we are looking for perfection. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Not playing that game, John317: I've said it before. Your catechism of questions, which I assume don't sound aggressive in your head, sound very aggressive on the page. They also lead the discussion down an ever-narrowing path of your design. I'm just not interested in going there. I will attempt to describe myself in my own terms, for my own purposes. And I applaud you for this. Good insight. I look forward to hearing it in your terms. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 20, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 20, 2011 Not playing that game, John317: I've said it before. Your catechism of questions, which I assume don't sound aggressive in your head, sound very aggressive on the page. They also lead the discussion down an ever-narrowing path of your design. I'm just not interested in going there. I will attempt to describe myself in my own terms, for my own purposes. That's what I'm talking about, Bravus. Why the secret? Ask me a question and I will answer it. It is no game. Christians don't have secrets about their beliefs. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 20, 2011 Members Share Posted November 20, 2011 And to add to what John is saying, I've looked at other people and said to myself, wow I'm a better person that they are, I got no worries at all. But if I look at Jesus I than have to admit that I'm not really a better person than he is. phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 20, 2011 Share Posted November 20, 2011 Well there is the thing we can agree on. Not one person is truly better than another. We all have our burdens and our skeletons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 20, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 20, 2011 That's so true. I saw a good sermon about that very point last night on TV by a non-SDA minister. Looking to people gets our eyes off Jesus and the truth, and when we do that, it's easy to fall off the narrow path. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted November 20, 2011 Administrators Share Posted November 20, 2011 "They view the words of Ellen White as greater than those of the Bible." Thats a "figment of your imagination". Then why do you quote her many times more often than you do Scripture? "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 20, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 20, 2011 Among Christians, we should have no fear of letting go of our skeletons. The problem is when we try to hide them or ignore them or deny that they exist. The reason we do that is that we're afraid people will reject us if they knew the whole truth. Of course, there's also the fact that we should confess our sins only to God and that people really don't want to know EVERYTHING. Right? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 John thats a problem for mankind period. Christian or non. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: ClubV12 "They view the words of Ellen White as greater than those of the Bible." Thats a "figment of your imagination". Then why do you quote her many times more often than you do Scripture? Tom, the fact that someone quotes her a lot doesn't mean they believe her words are greater than the Bible. Sometimes I quote her a lot, too, but it would be a mistake to conclude I believe her words to be superior to the Bible. Isn't quoting her an appropriate thing to do among SDAs, the people who claim to believe Ellen G. White was a genuine prophet of God? If it isn't approriate here among SDAs, where would it be appropriate to quote her? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 21, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 In philosophy there are a number of definitions of 'belief', but the one that resonates most strongly with me is 'disposition to act'. That is, what we really believe comes out in our actions. And sometimes we espouse beliefs in our words that are not visible in our actions. For this reason, I'd rather start by talking about what I do and what I value, and work from there to the more abstract ground of beliefs. Family comes first for me. It doesn't always come up in forum discussions, though those who have been here and listening know. But my love for and friendship with my wife and daughters are the things that really make my life meaningful. It's them I work for and think of and exist for. In terms of making the world a better place, I believe that Sue and I have done the most important task we can by helping our daughters develop into good people. Remembering that Sue was sexually abused by her father and at least one other man in her church as a child, the goal has been to perpetuate love rather than abuse, to break the cycle and send forth strong healthy families into the world. Our daughters both have boyfriends with similar values and will be creating loving families in the coming generations. That, to me, is success and in itself justifies my life. Beyond that, I guess if a label is needed 'humanist' is as good as any. (And no, that *doesn't* mean 'atheist' - do some reading if necessary.) Just in the sense that the values I hold relate to reducing suffering and enhancing joy and peace for all of humanity, to the maximum extent possible. That has implications for all sorts of political issues, and I use my vote and influence to that end, but it also means that I give money to charity and time to volunteering and make choices that are consistent with those values. It means I regard disease and death as enemies that we must fight: and that includes all deaths. Including those that people justify in various ways. It also means that I value harm minimisation, whether that's condoms in AIDS-afflicted countries or clean needles for heroin addicts. Yes, the situations are less than ideal and there are better solutions, but in the mean time we keep people alive. My life work and gift is teaching, and I use that in as many ways as I can to influence the world for the better. As a school teacher teaching 5 subjects I influenced about 100 students a year for 6 or 7 years - and some of those are still friends, two decades later, and good people. As a teacher educator I influence maybe 80 people or so a year, who then each go on to influence a hundred a year each throughout their careers. Like it or not, my sphere of influence is large, and I take that responsibility very seriously. I do test spiritual beliefs against their physical-world consequences, it is true. (Many here claim to do the reverse... I can't judge that either way) That is, if beliefs claim to make life better but in fact make it worse, there is something wrong with the beliefs (or, I guess, the believers, but that gets old fast and isn't really plausible). We've been through this many times before and found no solution, so I'll leave it lie. In terms of finding a label for myself, there isn't a convenient one. I'd be indebted to anyone who could find one, because it's inconvenient and annoying (though also strangely freeing) not to have one. I've said that 'panentheism' best summarises my view of the nature of God, and have talked at some length about my view of the nature of God on my blog: those posts are linked earlier in this thread, or just go to the blog and search 'God'. I believe in God, but a God that is truly infinite. Given that, any knowledge we can have of God is a vanishingly tiny fraction of God's full reality. As such it makes no sense at all to be arrogant or to claim that our understanding is 'better' or 'truer' than someone else's knowledge of God. Rather, in humility, we should seek God. I also believe God created the universe and is immanent and transcendent, within, through and greater than the universe. As such, the universe is one revelation of God: and we are further limiting our understanding of God if we bind our understanding of the universe to our limited understanding of the limited understanding of God portrayed in the Bible. And yes, other faith traditions are also revelations of the nature of God. This, perhaps more than anything else, is the core of my journey: I can no longer accept the claims to exclusivity of Christianity. This is not just an issue with SDAism, and it's why I haven't followed the more usual path of leaving SDAism and moving to another Christian denomination or starting a splinter group. The notion that Christianity is the One True Way is a narrow prejudice that does not survive actually looking beyond our own back yards. Just that imaginative act of thinking 'what would I believe if I'd been born in Addis Ababa or Chenai?' is sufficient to establish that being born Christian is just an accident of geography. Given that all (most?) religions claim exclusivity in the same way, it is clear that none of them is correct about that: there are many paths, there must be. Or there are none. 'Post-Christian' is another label I've used, and the image I described earlier in this thread of climbing out onto the roof of the church and looking at the stars is compelling to me. But again, in some ways it says more about what I was than what I am. Here's the blog post in which I used the term 'quantum theist': http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=2580 It reiterates many of the ideas in this post. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 21, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 I know. I'm wrong about everything. But it really would be a refreshing thing to hear first about possible areas of agreement and connection. But whatever you want to post is very welcome, and I'm pleased this thread has had the 'legs' it has. I guess one other thing... to some extent the character of 'Bravus' has, I feel, come to stand in for a range of other concerns not mine in this thread. I'm not precious about that, but it's worth stating that only I speak for me... Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 Yep-- I agree with you. :-) John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: ClubV12 "They view the words of Ellen White as greater than those of the Bible." Thats a "figment of your imagination". Then why do you quote her many times more often than you do Scripture? Yes. Excellent point. By their fruits you will know them. And when people are quoting her all the time it demonstrates their loyalities. She would turn over in her grave if she knew people were doing this. She wanted to point people to Christ - not herself. May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 boys and girls.... sometimes you just got let something ride without correcting it to death. A similar case, and I quote EGW here, we need to point out what is right not what is wrong. Post a thread on why you are an Adventist, or why you etc etc If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Quote: Some people's love feels an awful lot like contempt Unfortunately that is common among some religious extremists. Does that include liberal extremists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Does that include liberal extremists? Generally liberals are liberal and allow and promote tolerance in individual beliefs May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 I quote her a lot for the very reason God raised her up for this time in history. The same reason He has always had prophets, they speak in a language that is easy to understand for the people of that time! They bring clairity to the word. They help put the principles of the bible in an everday context that just makes sense. They take a bible verse and make it plain. It's the same thing WE DO on this forum, give our view, our understanding of any given bible verse, principle or concept. It's the same thing the Pastor does from the pulpit or the Sabbath school teacher or that book that gives you new insights to some here to fore hidden truth. To make plain the way of the Lord. I can't think of a more qualified author, certainly not one who is anywhere near the volume of her work and years of experience. Not to mention that whole "inspired prophet" thing so many wrestle with. Where DO people get their insights from life? Age helps, the job, at school, around the home, from church, reading the bible, reading "books" of all kinds, the news, the web. I prefer the best possible source of down to earth easy to understand counsel written in modern language, consistent with bible truths and insights that excell anything Grandma, or Tom, had to say, Ellen White! There are lots of opinions on Daniel 11 and 12. William Miller did some excellent work on that, Ellen White agreed AND brought even more clairity to it. Or,,, we could listen to Miz3's opinion, or maybe Dr. Rich. Each one of us could make a go of it on our own if you like. ME? I'll go to the source, Gods messenger! The FRUIT of her work points to Christ like no other author of our time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Does that include liberal extremists? Generally liberals are liberal and allow and promote tolerance in individual beliefs Liberals are liberal with all other liberals... Very rarely will you find a liberal who is liberal with a conservative... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Liberals are liberal with all other liberals... Very rarely will you find a liberal who is liberal with a conservative... **head begins spinning** What? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Liberals are liberal with all other liberals... Very rarely will you find a liberal who is liberal with a conservative... **head begins spinning** What? As above^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Liberals are liberal with all other liberals... Very rarely will you find a liberal who is liberal with a conservative... This ^^ "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 There are a LOT of "Don't judge" judges too. "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 And when people are quoting her all the time it demonstrates their loyalities. I agree. The same thing can be said of people who often quote Paul. It demonstrates their loyalties to the messages God sends to the church. Originally Posted By: Woody She would turn over in her grave if she knew people were doing this. She wanted to point people to Christ - not herself. Do you mean she would turn over in her grave if she knew Seventh-day Adventists were quoting her writings to one another? I can think of a few other things that would be more likely to make her turn over in her grave. One would be that most SDAs aren't studying and putting into practice the messages God sent to us through her. Quoting Desire of Ages, for instance, is not pointing people to Ellen White any more than quoting the Gospel of Luke is pointing people to Luke. Both are pointing people to Christ. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 In philosophy there are a number of definitions of 'belief', but the one that resonates most strongly with me is 'disposition to act'. That is, what we really believe comes out in our actions. And sometimes we espouse beliefs in our words that are not visible in our actions. For this reason, I'd rather start by talking about what I do and what I value, and work from there to the more abstract ground of beliefs. Family comes first for me. It doesn't always come up in forum discussions, though those who have been here and listening know. But my love for and friendship with my wife and daughters are the things that really make my life meaningful. It's them I work for and think of and exist for. In terms of making the world a better place, I believe that Sue and I have done the most important task we can by helping our daughters develop into good people. Remembering that Sue was sexually abused by her father and at least one other man in her church as a child, the goal has been to perpetuate love rather than abuse, to break the cycle and send forth strong healthy families into the world. Our daughters both have boyfriends with similar values and will be creating loving families in the coming generations. That, to me, is success and in itself justifies my life. Beyond that, I guess if a label is needed 'humanist' is as good as any. (And no, that *doesn't* mean 'atheist' - do some reading if necessary.) Just in the sense that the values I hold relate to reducing suffering and enhancing joy and peace for all of humanity, to the maximum extent possible. That has implications for all sorts of political issues, and I use my vote and influence to that end, but it also means that I give money to charity and time to volunteering and make choices that are consistent with those values. It means I regard disease and death as enemies that we must fight: and that includes all deaths. Including those that people justify in various ways. It also means that I value harm minimisation, whether that's condoms in AIDS-afflicted countries or clean needles for heroin addicts. Yes, the situations are less than ideal and there are better solutions, but in the mean time we keep people alive. My life work and gift is teaching, and I use that in as many ways as I can to influence the world for the better. As a school teacher teaching 5 subjects I influenced about 100 students a year for 6 or 7 years - and some of those are still friends, two decades later, and good people. As a teacher educator I influence maybe 80 people or so a year, who then each go on to influence a hundred a year each throughout their careers. Like it or not, my sphere of influence is large, and I take that responsibility very seriously. I do test spiritual beliefs against their physical-world consequences, it is true. (Many here claim to do the reverse... I can't judge that either way) That is, if beliefs claim to make life better but in fact make it worse, there is something wrong with the beliefs (or, I guess, the believers, but that gets old fast and isn't really plausible). We've been through this many times before and found no solution, so I'll leave it lie. In terms of finding a label for myself, there isn't a convenient one. I'd be indebted to anyone who could find one, because it's inconvenient and annoying (though also strangely freeing) not to have one. I've said that 'panentheism' best summarises my view of the nature of God, and have talked at some length about my view of the nature of God on my blog: those posts are linked earlier in this thread, or just go to the blog and search 'God'. I believe in God, but a God that is truly infinite. Given that, any knowledge we can have of God is a vanishingly tiny fraction of God's full reality. As such it makes no sense at all to be arrogant or to claim that our understanding is 'better' or 'truer' than someone else's knowledge of God. Rather, in humility, we should seek God. I also believe God created the universe and is immanent and transcendent, within, through and greater than the universe. As such, the universe is one revelation of God: and we are further limiting our understanding of God if we bind our understanding of the universe to our limited understanding of the limited understanding of God portrayed in the Bible. And yes, other faith traditions are also revelations of the nature of God. This, perhaps more than anything else, is the core of my journey: I can no longer accept the claims to exclusivity of Christianity. This is not just an issue with SDAism, and it's why I haven't followed the more usual path of leaving SDAism and moving to another Christian denomination or starting a splinter group. The notion that Christianity is the One True Way is a narrow prejudice that does not survive actually looking beyond our own back yards. Just that imaginative act of thinking 'what would I believe if I'd been born in Addis Ababa or Chenai?' is sufficient to establish that being born Christian is just an accident of geography. Given that all (most?) religions claim exclusivity in the same way, it is clear that none of them is correct about that: there are many paths, there must be. Or there are none. 'Post-Christian' is another label I've used, and the image I described earlier in this thread of climbing out onto the roof of the church and looking at the stars is compelling to me. But again, in some ways it says more about what I was than what I am. Here's the blog post in which I used the term 'quantum theist': http://www.bravus.com/blog/?p=2580 It reiterates many of the ideas in this post. Wow, just wow. That right there or at least 99% of it. Nice post. I would like to add tho that thre are a number of religions that do not consider them selves the ONE true way - but just one of the many true ways. ( no this was not some "good ole boy back slapping" I just agree with him) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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