Why I am a former SDA

[Woody]

Quote:

Whoa, brother, think about what you have said against the creator of the Universe.

Praise God - that is not the creator of the Universe but the Devil himself. So I clearly don't mind spitting in the Devil's face.

[Woody]

Woody,

It is quite obvious that some just don't get it and won't, for some time possibly! I said it before that Bravus 'scares' the do-wop out of some people because he dares to examine his beliefs and talk about them. Is no else on a journey of discovery? Bravus issue is not with God but others 'definitions' of 'christianity', very threatening to some.

EGW, herself, talkled about an 'experiential knowledge' of God, are we afraid of having that?

It's a journey folks!!!! Don't get so uptight!!!

Exactly. Thank you brother for making it so clear after my emotional outburst of outrage. :)

[John317]

The bible contains ALL the truth!!!

Originally Posted By: SivartM

Not even the biblical authors ever claimed that. One anthology, written thousands of years ago in completely different cultures and languages, contains ALL the truth?

John 17:3

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

1 John 5:11-12

And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

2 Tim. 3:13-17

.... evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. [14] But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whom you learned it [15] and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. [16] All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righ teousness, [17] that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work.

John 17:17

Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.

John 1:18

No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Col. 2:8-10

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. [9] For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, [10] and you are complete in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

[Woody]

Extra Big Hugs to Bravus. In a manly way of course.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Bravus, sadly, is not on a journey of discovery, he is on a journey of rejection of the great light he has been given.

ar·ro·gant; adjective

1. making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud:

Reading of the other persons mind and heart, assuming they have intimate knowledge of the H*S's direction in another persons life, assuming what that 'great light' is, that another person has been given......etc, etc.

[Woody]

Quote:

Bravus, sadly, is not on a journey of discovery, he is on a journey of rejection of the great light he has been given.

ar·ro·gant; adjective

1. making claims or pretensions to superior importance or rights; overbearingly assuming; insolently proud:

Reading of the other persons mind and heart, assuming they have intimate knowledge of the H*S's direction in another persons life, assuming what that 'great light' is, that another person has been given......etc, etc.

[CoAspen]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

The bible contains ALL the truth!!!

Not even the biblical authors ever claimed that. One anthology, written thousands of years ago in completely different cultures and languages, contains ALL the truth?

That tricky word, ALL.....

all   adjective

1. the whole of (used in referring to quantity, extent, or duration):

3. the greatest possible (used in referring to quality or degree):

The more correct and completeness would be to use the word in regards to what is needed to learn about salvation. You are correct in suggesting that the sum of all truths are not there. Otherwise, why the need to keep learning, preaching, studying, exploring....etc.

[Bravus]

Thanks all, for your kindness and support.

Thanks, too, to John317, Twilight and ClubV12 for challenging me to think and giving me further food for thought.

Have to admit, throughout this thread this has kinda seemed like my theme song:

But a number of friends have given me the great gift of their understanding, and I am very thankful indeed.

[Woody]

"God leads His people on, step by step. He brings them up to different points calculated to manifest what is in the heart. Some endure at one point, but fall off at the next. At every advanced point the heart is tested and tried a little closer."

Ellen White in 1T 187

"At every stage of development our life may be perfect; yet if God's puirpose for us is fulfilled, there will be continual advancement" Ellen White in COL 65

Praise God Bravus that you are growing IN HIM and that you have the courage to share it on this forum.

[Gail]

Not only that, but by being more honest although it might seem a step backwards outwardly, perhaps it is a better place for God to work.

I was just wondering that if it was me in Bravus' shoes (and who knows what the future holds?) whether I might have to grapple likewise and whether how I was treated would hasten or hinder that process.

Even if a person was so vile that we could not see any redeeming qualities, I should think that we could treat the person as if this world is all s/he will have and maybe try to make their earthly life happy for them. I should think that even that attitude would be instrumental in some people's taking a second look.

[M. T. Cross]

I read this thread every day and I am hit with a lot of different feelings.

Respect. I feel this when I read people like Bravus that are not scared to seek truth outside of the walls that are comfortable. You see when you have spent years in a religion - especially one like SDA - it is terrifying. You battle so hard against it because for years you have been filled with fear. Told and taught that if you even start to think outside that box you are going to be lost. It takes a lot of courage to look with honesty at what you have been taught and told and say - wow this does not ring true in my soul.

I also feel a lot of respect for the people that can be open minded enough to say - ya know what, I still believe in the SDA message, but I respect your journey.

Sadness. That there are those that can not show respect. That can't see past their own beliefs to realize that there is a possibility that there might be more than one way to the truth. That they have to attack in both a very aggressive and a passive aggresive manner. This to me is what keeps this world in a state of terror and hatred.

It has been eye opening to say the least. Cause some of the posts I read here take me back to what I thought for years. If that kind of damning attitude and cold heartedness is what your God inspires. If he really is the only God and my refusal to cow to things that make me treat others so badly means I will burn in hell - well then I guess a bbq appetizer I will be.

[Twilight II]

Not only that, but by being more honest although it might seem a step backwards outwardly, perhaps it is a better place for God to work.

I was just wondering that if it was me in Bravus' shoes (and who knows what the future holds?) whether I might have to grapple likewise and whether how I was treated would hasten or hinder that process.

Even if a person was so vile that we could not see any redeeming qualities, I should think that we could treat the person as if this world is all s/he will have and maybe try to make their earthly life happy for them. I should think that even that attitude would be instrumental in some people's taking a second look.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

....I think that if there ever was an original "truth" it has been scattered amongst many different belief systems. It takes a great deal of dedication and direction to weed out the bits of truth in them.

Many people do not have the time or the desire to do that. Its not really a bad thing, because for most they find the truth they are ready for within one belief system. I personally have not yet found a singular belief system that has ever rung fully true to me.

I agree with you that all the primary religions of the world contain some truth. For instance, all of them teach some good moral values concerning how to relate to other people. And all of them also address issues having to do with suffering, sin, and the eternal.

What belief system[s'] have you found to be ring truest for you personally?

In the past there have been times when I was very attracted to Buddhism and Taoism.

As I said there - none. There are parts of several that I find to have some real meaning.

I belong to a private group of people that share the same outlook as me. SOme would call it a religion, some would call it a spiritual group, not sure what I call it. Our deepest search is for the knowledge of truth. Where it comes from is not really relevent.

[Gail]

Quote:

Why should we try to make some secure in their eternal destruction?

Are you saying that a life lived in phoniness is closer to God?

If a person chooses a life without the Lord that is his/her choice, his/her God-given choice. We need to respect that as much as the choice to come to God.

If Christ is lifted up, He has promised to draw men to Him. No amount of either coercion or cajoling on my part will do that in place of the Spirit. My condemnation probably won't bring about desired results, either.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

Why should we try to make some secure in their eternal destruction?

Are you saying that a life lived in phoniness is closer to God?

If a person chooses a life without the Lord that is his/her choice, his/her God-given choice. We need to respect that as much as the choice to come to God.

If Christ is lifted up, He has promised to draw men to Him. No amount of either coercion or cajoling on my part will do that in place of the Spirit. My condemnation probably won't bring about desired results, either.

That right there!!! Bang on!

For the years I was an Adventist I tried as hard as I could to really truly believe what I was taught. I read the Bible, I prayed, I studied, I read Ellen White. But it never ever clicked. I was terrified because in my heart I knew that I did not really believe in it.It took years to get past that fear. Even out of the church its only been in the last 5 or 6 years that I started to loose that fear.

I ask this of all those that like to tell us how we are lost, that give us these dire warnings. Do you honestly think that if you scare us into being Adventists or Christians it would be right? We would be acting out a lie. Right there that is a sin is it not?

I can say this much. The more damning the approach the more I realize I made the right decision in not trying to have my membership reinstated in this church.

[Bravus]

"Perfect love casts out fear"

[M. T. Cross]

"Perfect love casts out fear"

One of the things we strive for in the group I belong to is Perfect Love and Perfect Peace

Perfect love does indeed cast out fear.

[Gail]

I find it interesting the number of people who I've encountered who have left the church but not a belief in God or of Jesus.

The basic question must be what will you do with Jesus?

The church has changed much over the years, EmptyCross. Our people (I find) are not as judgmental as they used to be, reason being that I think they've realised that the issues dealing with externals are not as important as reflecting God's character. Your soul pain is what Jesus wants to heal first. That's a way bigger endeavour than weight loss, clothing, smoking or jewelry.

First things first. And perhaps to some of those who were raised in the church it seems like coming to Jesus was not presented as often as the easier things to see or to point out were focused on. But Jesus wants your heart. He wants to speak to your heart about core issues, the things important to every person who's ever lived.

[Gail]

Quote:

For the years I was an Adventist I tried as hard as I could to really truly believe what I was taught. I read the Bible, I prayed, I studied, I read Ellen White. But it never ever clicked. I was terrified because in my heart I knew that I did not really believe in it.It took years to get past that fear. Even out of the church its only been in the last 5 or 6 years that I started to loose that fear.

And yet the Bible itself says, "And you shall seek me and FIND me if ye shall search for me with all your heart."

If you search for Jesus that is a good place to start. And although I can sell you a Bible and even tell you where to read, your personal spirituality is really a matter between you and God Himself. I can't do that for you. I can only point you to Christ.

[M. T. Cross]

I find it interesting the number of people who I've encountered who have left the church but not a belief in God or of Jesus.

The basic question must be what will you do with Jesus?

The church has changed much over the years, EmptyCross. Our people (I find) are not as judgmental as they used to be, reason being that I think they've realised that the issues dealing with externals are not as important as reflecting God's character. Your soul pain is what Jesus wants to heal first. That's a way bigger endeavour than weight loss, clothing, smoking or jewelry.

First things first. And perhaps to some of those who were raised in the church it seems like coming to Jesus was not presented as often as the easier things to see or to point out were focused on. But Jesus wants your heart. He wants to speak to your heart about core issues, the things important to every person who's ever lived.

Actually Gail we had a long talk about Jesus in our group the other night. Of our deep respect for him and his sense of love and fairness. IJesus is one of my heros. I just question his deitiness ( yes that is a word - I just used it and I bet you know what I meant )

[M. T. Cross]

The church has changed much over the years, EmptyCross. Our people (I find) are not as judgmental as they used to be, reason being that I think they've realised that the issues dealing with externals are not as important as reflecting God's character.

As i would not go within 20 feet of the local SDA church here, this site is the only way I have to look at Adventist behaviour. I agree that it has changed in some, but wow as for the rest it seems to be as bad as ever.

I appreciate the example of people like yourself to show love and show a caring rather than condemnation.

[ClubV12]

Gail says,

"If a person chooses a life without the Lord that is his/her choice, his/her God-given choice. We need to respect that as much as the choice to come to God."

I said on page one of this thread I respect Bravus' opinion, I wish him the best. Why? Because in MY opinion, based on his testimony, not conjecture or some feeling, this is the only life he's got. Live it up, be happy, because that's it, this is all you get.

Thats my opinion. Those who have known the light and rejected in favor of mysticism and science are living in delusion. Those who have left the church because they got mad at someone, will be without excuse come the judgment.

So,,, ya'll have a good time, because THIS life is as good as it's gonna get for ya.

Now thats MY opinion. Bravus expressed his. I've expressed mine. You can choose which ever one you want, but your a hypocrite if you bash me for mine and praise Bravus for his!!

[Gail]

Do you know how Nicodemus met up with Jesus (at night, mind you, so that no one would know). He sought to talk to him- teacher of Jewish law and traditions, scholar, with the teacher of Nazareth.

Jesus cut right down to the core and said, "You must be born again." Whoa!! Such a profound concept that transcended anything he'd ever heard of before. But the words stuck and made Nicodemus think. It took some time but he finally got it. At the death of Jesus, Nicodemus understood.

Consider how Moses' face actually shone after having been in the mount with God. There is something that happens when a person comes to the Lord in verity and in truth and the connection happens.

Do you know anyone like that? Not that their face actually lit up, but I tell you, some do! With joy and peace and you KNOW that something happened.

The Bible says that "Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God." That's a start, but to experience Christ you need to experience Christ. And that is the part between you and Him.

Keep seeking! Life's not over till it's over! :)

[Bravus]

William Gibson once said "The future is here, it's just not evenly distributed yet."

I think that applies to the SDA church - it's actually very diverse, and individual congregations differ enormously from one another both doctrinally and in terms of tolerance (or otherwise). Regions also differ enormously.

It's important to avoid generalising our experience from one congregation to the whole church.

[Gail]

Quote:

As i would not go within 20 feet of the local SDA church here, this site is the only way I have to look at Adventist behaviour. I agree that it has changed in some, but wow as for the rest it seems to be as bad as ever.

And I know there are many here that are so glad you ARE here! :)