Why I am a former SDA

[Overaged]

Joining the Church can be as difficult as leaving it.

Will say more after I arrive home.

No matter what Bravus,, you are always welcome here and in my heart.

[Overaged]

It might be disturbing to some here to hear it, but this place has also contributed to the developments in my thinking that have led to me now identifying myself as a 'former SDA'. When issues are discussed in detail, both positions and hearts become clearer, and it became clearer to me over time that my heart was not in tune with the positions of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Or, really, of mainstream Christianity either. I've posted links to blog posts of mine in the past in which I've identified as 'post-Christian', and while that label probably introduces as many misconceptions as it solves, it's probably the best one available.

Your story is amazing Bravus - thankyou for sharing it. Makes me see you in a whole new light. Believe it or not, you and I have had very similar experiences...I have nothing but respect for you - you are nothing but genuine and upfront here with everyone, EVEN ME with the way I have been in the past.

Hopefully, something of your great intentions and ideals will continue to rub off on others.

[ClubV12]

A bit of balance perhaps?

Being a "good man", a worthy in the worlds view, doing much to help the poor, loving your neighbor, being honest and upright in business can be said of many men. Hindu's, Buddhist's, Christians of various denominations, Islamists, atheists, agnostics, etc. In all these you can find "good men", is that all it takes to find yourself worthy of the Kingdom of heaven?

Sadly,,, no.

There is only one way, by accepting Jesus as your personal saviour. That applies to the "good men" of the earth as well as the mass murderer, the lowest of the low whom society has utterly rejected. God is no respector of persons, your worldly admiration or lack thereof means nothing in the sight of God.

[Bravus]

Thanks all for your graciousness and support. You are all good friends and beautiful people, and I appreciate your friendship very much. Whether it's right to do so or not, in some ultimate sense, we do learn about Jesus from those who claim to follow Him, and character matters.

[Bravus]

PS I don't, at all, *experience* it as a struggle, turmoil or confusion, but as a sense of calmness and peace as I can finally reconcile my moral and ethical beliefs with my religious beliefs. I know most won't agree, but that feels like progress, not 'back-sliding'.

[ClubV12]

I won't judge you on any of this Bravus, but I would like to share my personal testimony.

I was mostly at peace with myself before I became a christian. It was a struggle figuring out this new life. A week after I was baptized my world all but fell apart. I was hit by a personal and public controversy so intense I did not go back to church for three weeks. I was barely dry from being baptized when this happened. My take on it: The devil was furious! The gloves came off. He hit me hard with everything he had. He wasn't about to leave me alone with "peace", he does that when we are no threat to him. Start to follow Jesus, take a public stand, and your asking for it, and I got it. It ALMOST drove me out of the church before I had even got started. I had my "Peter denies Christ" moment, I am ashamed to say, that resulted in holding on to Jesus like Jacob held on. I would not let go without a blessing. At times I was holding onto Jesus with one hand and striking out at Him with the other! What a mess.

I found my peace, I got that blessing, that was my moment of conversion, which for me, came AFTER I was baptized. I pray that next time it comes, and I know it will, I will not hesitate to hold on to Jesus, no matter what. I have a peace like I've never felt in my life, I love to praise God for His goodness and mercy. That a sinner above all sinners, myself, could find such forgiveness, His love is amazing, thank God for that!

[CoAspen]

Like Gail said.......

"What does the Lord require of us? To do justly, to love mercy and to walk humbly with our God."

[Woody]

Thanks Bravus. I very much appreciate your post.

There is one thing that I am learning in my old age -

The Bible is FAR from clear on the specifics. SO - I have to determine that great minds can differ. If these specific points were really important - the Great God would have made them clear.

SO - I pray that the church is open to all no matter what their thoughts or interpretations might be.

[Gail]

Ahem- like you are so very OLD...

[John317]

2. Gay people need to love and be loved, get married, be included as full members of the community.

You say this is a "specific issue." Could you explain this? The SDA church's practice and view on this matter is in line with the Bible, isn't it?

If a gay person decides to get married to a member of the opposite sex, that is fine, but the Bible definitely doesn't condone gay men or gay women marrying members of their own gender.

I do agree that gay people need to love and be loved and should be accepted as full members of society. However, if you mean that the SDA church should accept practicing homosexuals as members of the church, I couldn't disagree more.

The teachings of the church as well our own personal lives have to be based on the Bible's teachings:

1 Cor. 6:9-11

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

[John317]

3. Caring for the poor is a massive thrust of the whole Bible and of Jesus (sheep and the goats has nothing at all to do with denominational identification, in fact says it *won't* save you if you don't help the poor) yet I see here again and again how 'Christians' want to side with the rich and clutch their possessions and demonise the poor.

I agree with you-- except the part about siding with the rich and demonizing the poor-- but how is this a "specific issue"?

Are you saying this played some part in your decision to leave the SDA church?

[Alchemy]

Bravus wrote; "1. I cannot be a recent creationist and remain sane: the evidence is just far too overwhelming in the direction of evolution and long time spans. I'll get push back on this, I always do, but I'm explaining my reasons."

Blessings Bravus, I must say I am sorry to hear you categorize yourself as an ex-Adventist. You seem to be an intelligent and honest man.

But, one part of my journey with Christ has to do with finding this "evidence is just far too overwhelming in the direction of evolution and long time spans." you mentioned. I have spent most of the last decade looking for this "mountain of evidence" and other terms used to describe their support for evolution and I can't find it.

I assure you I have spent most of this part of my search talking to or reading material from evolutionists and I have great respect for the honest ones. But, since you opened yourself up questions, I feel compelled to ask this of you now.

What is this overwhelming evidence in the direction of evolution? Can you show me some of it?

Few evolutionists have any decent answer and I am hoping for some insight from you.

No disrespect intended, but God Bless.

[John317]

5. The glee for the destruction of the earth exhibited here and by other Christians. The job God gave us in Eden (metaphorically) was stewardship of the earth, but burning it all down as quickly as possible seems almost to be doctrine these days.

Sure, but how does this relate to leaving the SDA church? Or does it?

I don't see any glee for the destruction of the earth being exhibited on the Forum. I certainly do agree that God gave us in Eden (literally) the strewardship of the earth.

I also agree that most people do not seem to recognize or practice this stewardship, but then it may have something to do with the fact that people today don't generally believe that God gave us this stewardship of the earth. I think the idea of this stewardship goes hand-in-hand with the Sabbath and the belief that God is our Creator.

By the way, isn't it interesting that the book of Revelation teaches that Christ will come to punish "those who destroy the earth"?

Before our day, it wasn't even possible for mankind to destroy the earth. Today it is not only possible but it looks more and more like a probability.

[cardw]

PS I don't, at all, *experience* it as a struggle, turmoil or confusion, but as a sense of calmness and peace as I can finally reconcile my moral and ethical beliefs with my religious beliefs. I know most won't agree, but that feels like progress, not 'back-sliding'.

I can relate to everything that you have posted.

I, too, experienced an incredible sense of calm and peace once I finally realized that I could no longer endorse as true what the culture of Christianity was teaching.

I have never felt like a "back slider" at all.

There is this concept that people outside the church are entering Babylon or "confusion." In my experience I have met people far more sane and clear in their thinking living outside of organized religion.

So, I welcome you to a view that encompasses a larger panorama than Christianity allows. (But you already know that)

Richard

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

5. The glee for the destruction of the earth exhibited here and by other Christians. The job God gave us in Eden (metaphorically) was stewardship of the earth, but burning it all down as quickly as possible seems almost to be doctrine these days.

Sure, but how does this relate to leaving the SDA church? Or does it?

I don't see any glee for the destruction of the earth being exhibited on the Forum. I certainly do agree that God gave us in Eden (literally) the strewardship of the earth.

I also agree that most people do not seem to recognize or practice this stewardship, but then it may have something to do with the fact that people today don't generally believe that God gave us this stewardship of the earth. I think the idea of this stewardship goes hand-in-hand with the Sabbath and the belief that God is our Creator.

By the way, isn't it interesting that the book of Revelation teaches that Christ will come to punish "those who destroy the earth"?

Before our day, it wasn't even possible for mankind to destroy the earth. Today it is not only possible but it looks more and more like a probability.

This is just to add that when He comes what happens when he comes since this was brought out.

2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

[John317]

...I, too, experienced an incredible sense of calm and peace once I finally realized that I could no longer endorse as true what the culture of Christianity was teaching.

I have never felt like a "back slider" at all.

Not a good sign to have no belief in Christ and to feel good about it.

[ClubV12]

Purified in the fire of the Lord. A literal fire that will nenew the earth, a spiritual fire by trials that will purify God's people.

The evil doer is also a source of peace, he's no fool, he's not going to mess up a good thing by throwing curve balls at those who he holds fast. Literally, "life is good"! Life on THIS planet, for a short time...

[John317]

There is this concept that people outside the church are entering Babylon or "confusion." In my experience I have met people far more sane and clear in their thinking living outside of organized religion.

May have something to do with the fact that you think more like them than you do like those in organized religion. That doesn't mean they are right, though.

Almost all the people who are lost will believe they were in the right.

Did you know that the insane also think they are thinking sanely and clearly? In fact, most of them would tell you that their thinking is far clearer than the doctor's.

[John317]

It might be disturbing to some here to hear it, but this place has also contributed to the developments in my thinking that have led to me now identifying myself as a 'former SDA'. When issues are discussed in detail, both positions and hearts become clearer, and it became clearer to me over time that my heart was not in tune with the positions of the Seventh-day Adventist church.

I think it's a big mistake for anyone to think that this Forum is representative of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. There are many things said on this Forum that one would never hear in an SDA church. I have been utterly shocked at what I've seen on the Forum over the years, but fortunately I have never seen or heard the same things in the church or from SDAs I've known in all the years I've been connected with it.

[John317]

... I don't see Bravus' issues as any reason for anyone to leave the church unless that is what they want to do. Everyone is free to believe what they want.

Exactly my thought.

[Neil D]

I have a lot of respect for Bravus as a person and he knows that. You haven't even been here for three months so I will suggest you speak out of turn. I do not know what Bravus' needs are. He may not even know what his needs are. The point I made in my post is that there are many other people that think the same way that he thinks and still choose to remain members of the Adventist church. The relevance of that is that it is Bravus' decision to leave the church and that no one is forcing him out.

Moi? Speaking out of turn? Not in the least....

Obviously, David doesn't think like others do in the church....

And his is the lack of fellowship of equal caliber to his spiritual need.....not like your need which only needs the traditional church....His is different, and his need is more acute. And you are correct in implying that one would have to know him longer than 3 months to make that assessment....

[Dr. Shane]

Moi? Speaking out of turn? Not in the least....

[Dr. Shane]

PS I don't, at all, *experience* it as a struggle, turmoil or confusion, but as a sense of calmness and peace as I can finally reconcile my moral and ethical beliefs with my religious beliefs.

What I see as a struggle and confusion is exactly what you have described in your story. You have been going from church to church and trying to reconcile beliefs and discrepancies. I was there myself. I went not only going from church to church but religion to religion. I wasn't trying to reconcile any discrepancies but just trying to figure out if there was some ultimate truth and if so what it was.

I joined the Adventist church because of all the world religions, the preponderance of evidence appeared to favor Adventism. My only other realistic alternative was to become an agnostic. Adventism offers hope that agnosticism doesn't. Adventism also offers structure and the Adventist lifestyle, like that of many other religions, has a spiritual beauty about it that is itself its own reward. If upon my deathbed I were to discover in some certain fashion that there is no God and this life is all there is, there is nothing about Adventism that would cause me to regret living my life according to its tenets.

[BobRyan]

I don't see Bravus' issues as any reason for anyone to leave the church unless that is what they want to do. Everyone is free to believe what they want.

While I do agree with some of your responses to Bravus' list of differences with SDA doctrine -- I have to agree with Bravus on this one point. Once determine to take the view of those issues that Bravus has taken - it is pretty clear that such a position is not even remotely the SDA doctrinal POV.

Bravus and I have differed on almost every point - but one thing we do agree on - (at least apparently we do now) - is that taking the views he takes - is far from the POV of the SDA doctrinal statement.

I have met a number of people here who post as "former SDAs" and share many of Bravus' ideas on the items in his list. Normally I enjoy comparing differences with them - and I never bring up 3SG 90-91 with them on the subject of Creation vs Evolution - because when dealing with a non-SDA there is no point at all in discussing ways to let God's messages to Ellen White inform your views.

By contrast - as long as Bravus was claiming to BE SDA - I had no problem at all reminding the reader that the views expressed did not represent the things God told Ellen White on some of those very same topics. Clearly that is point that would be meaningless to non-SDAs and in such a context I would not remind the reader of such a point at all.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

...

Obviously, David doesn't think like others do in the church....

And his is the lack of fellowship of equal caliber to his spiritual need.....not like your need which only needs the traditional church....His is different, and his need is more acute.....

Is being in the church, Christ's body, about "our need"?

When we think attending church is about "our need," that is a sign of being full of self.

Why do we join the church?

It may at first be because of our needs, but by the time we have been in the body of Christ for a number of years, as a mature Christian our reason for being there should no longer be about "our need" but because of the needs of others and because of our love for Christ.