Why I am a former SDA

[Neil D]

An apology typically is more appropriate than denial.

[Neil D]

It may at first be because of our needs, but by the time we have been in the body of Christ for a number of years, as a mature Christian our reason for being there should no longer be about "our need" but because of the needs of others and because of our love for Christ.

you can think that way if you want....

But some think, as Bravus has done, that if going to church is like banging your head on a wall, why do you want to continue to bang your head on the wall? It meets no one else's need...and you certainly don't like it...why continue to do it?

Of course, the Adventist church is placing itself in a neutered position...Why would anyone like to join a doctrinally correct church if they continue to get hurt....? Isn't that a sign of being dysfunctional???

Oh, the irony....

[Dr. Shane]

Oh, but people have run him out...Remember, Shane, he left the political thread because of ultra conservatives posted the dumbest stuff...It was the beginning of his leaving here...when he removed himself from that forum....remember?

It is the US Politics forum - not a thread. And if you have been around here long enough to know about that, why have you recently registered with a different user name? What is your game?

I accept Bravus' explanation at face value. I take him at his word. I don't try to read between the lines. He said he didn't want access to the political forum because he got too emotionally upset with those that disagreed with him politically. If that is the truth, he certainly isn't unique and made a decision worth respecting. He certainly wasn't run out of the forum and I do not believe he has ever had access to it since I have been the moderator.

[ClubV12]

Actually, I looked into that forum myself and likely won't go back, it raises my blood pressure way to high. :)

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

There is this concept that people outside the church are entering Babylon or "confusion." In my experience I have met people far more sane and clear in their thinking living outside of organized religion.

May have something to do with the fact that you think more like them than you do like those in organized religion. That doesn't mean they are right, though.

Almost all the people who are lost will believe they were in the right.

Did you know that the insane also think they are thinking sanely and clearly? In fact, most of them would tell you that their thinking is far clearer than the doctor's.

This is an example of why I am no longer a Christian. It is this type of "reasoning" that really draws the curtain back.

You provide no example of why I should be considered insane or why I'm not thinking clearly. It is entirely based in innuendo. This is considered dishonest within my circle of friends.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

Oh, but people have run him out...Remember, Shane, he left the political thread because of ultra conservatives posted the dumbest stuff...It was the beginning of his leaving here...when he removed himself from that forum....remember?

It is the US Politics forum - not a thread. And if you have been around here long enough to know about that, why have you recently registered with a different user name? What is your game?

[Overaged]

And don't say that you guys didn't do that....Because you did. I saw it...

I guess different people are going to see things differently HB. I know that when I was a "former Adventist;" I had various problems trying to describe myself to others at times. One minute; I would be wishing I was back at Church, so i would not let on that I was a "former;" instead, I would kind of beat around the bush a little; then other times, I would be really upset with all that was done to me; and I would be sure to let others know "I am not a Church-goer." (in other words non-Adventist)

A lot of times, when you leave a religion, or a church, other people keep seeing you in ways that you actually do not intend. As a former/ex-Adventist at times; I always found it frustrating to try and tell people where I was at, because I wasn't always sure myself. Posting on various forums helped me to kind of spell it out loud; and as many here know; there are times when the venom was evident; yet other times when the Holy Spirit was evident.

I was an ex-Adventist because of some very real, very disturbing things that were done to myself and my family by church members. And everytime I went to church; it was just like reminding me of, and re-opening the wounds afresh. Even now; those wounds are tender; and although I do go to church a bit; it is not every week like a 'real Adventist" is supposed to.

I can say that I am sure our friend Bravus has gone through similar ups and downs, and that different people have seen these as different things. I think that's all that's happened here. Some see us ex-Adventists as being bandied about and abused on the forum, yet others will see the blessings and the strong points of both sides.

In conclusion; I have noted one very remarkable fact that has been very consistent in my life - whether it was a time when I was Eder & lay Pastor, or, whether I was in ex-Adventist mode, and breaking the sabbath, and cursing the Adventists...

The fact is, is that God has never been absent from my life throughout it all. I have no choice but to admit that I see evidence of His hand during all these up & down experiences, in or out of the Church; and all I can say at this point of my journey is: "I can't wait to wake up every morning and see what Jesus is going to do next."

I would like to ask everyone participating in this thread to please accept my enclosed business card. I don't care what your status or standing in the Church is; I don't care what doctrines you acept; please, let's create a little unity in the Spirit; a little heaven on earth, just accept my business card, and then take it up with God and His Word, no matter what level or stage you are at in life. You may be in a time of life where you only see one set of footprints in your life path - and I would bet a lot that if this is the case; they may not be your's.

[Overaged]

Actually, I looked into that forum myself and likely won't go back, it raises my blood pressure way to high.

Now here is a smart man who recognizes his limits and sticks to them! Amen!

[Neil D]

I guess different people are going to see things differently HB. I know that when I was a "former Adventist;" I had various problems trying to describe myself to others at times. One minute; I would be wishing I was back at Church, so i would not let on that I was a "former;" instead, I would kind of beat around the bush a little; then other times, I would be really upset with all that was done to me; and I would be sure to let others know "I am not a Church-goer." (in other words non-Adventist) [/quoter]

In one sense, ...Been there....done that...

Not sure where, but I think there is a biblical text that says, "I recieved these wounds from the house of my friends." It is in reference to Christ, but I think you can use it....It is somewhat comforting that if I am asked I can use that text here...

Quote:

I was an ex-Adventist because of some very real, very disturbing things that were done to myself and my family by church members. And everytime I went to church; it was just like reminding me of, and re-opening the wounds afresh. Even now; those wounds are tender; and although I do go to church a bit; it is not every week like a 'real Adventist" is supposed to.

I too have been thru that "adventist wringer"...I never left the chruch, but did join another Adventist church...I see dysfunctional adventist people now...lots of them...many here...I try to with hold judgement...but I do respond to people who show empathy and sympathy to other people...a commodity that is in very short supply around here...

Quote:

The fact is, is that God has never been absent from my life throughout it all. I have no choice but to admit that I see evidence of His hand during all these up & down experiences, in or out of the Church; and all I can say at this point of my journey is: "I can't wait to wake up every morning and see what Jesus is going to do next."

David, the psalmist, said "Where can I go? Down to Sheol? You are even there." God doesn't leave us, Overage...but He's a smart guy..He bides His time and talks to us in the most sympathic tones...Says things like, "See, even I went thru that from their hands. Not all of them are bad apples. And I am changing a few of those too [at this point, He smiles craftily. It's unnerving sometimes.'] ...nevertheless, I laugh...and we talk...

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I would like to ask everyone participating in this thread to please accept my enclosed business card. I don't care what your status or standing in the Church is; I don't care what doctrines you acept; please, let's create a little unity in the Spirit; a little heaven on earth, just accept my business card, and then take it up with God and His Word, no matter what level or stage you are at in life. You may be in a time of life where you only see one set of footprints in your life path - and I would bet a lot that if this is the case; they may not be your's.

I will accept that card on one condition....You tell me when I am probing some old wounds...I know a few things, not many, about old wounds...some are stinky foul things, but they have to be cleaned...most of them are beyond my ability to help. I'll let the master Physician take care of those...Your responsibility is to let me know when I am touching an old wound....We'll go from there....deal?

[Overaged]

Deal

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

And don't say that you guys didn't do that....Because you did. I saw it...

I guess different people are going to see things differently HB. I know that when I was a "former Adventist;" I had various problems trying to describe myself to others at times. One minute; I would be wishing I was back at Church, so i would not let on that I was a "former;" instead, I would kind of beat around the bush a little; then other times, I would be really upset with all that was done to me; and I would be sure to let others know "I am not a Church-goer." (in other words non-Adventist)

A lot of times, when you leave a religion, or a church, other people keep seeing you in ways that you actually do not intend. As a former/ex-Adventist at times; I always found it frustrating to try and tell people where I was at, because I wasn't always sure myself. Posting on various forums helped me to kind of spell it out loud; and as many here know; there are times when the venom was evident; yet other times when the Holy Spirit was evident.

I was an ex-Adventist because of some very real, very disturbing things that were done to myself and my family by church members. And everytime I went to church; it was just like reminding me of, and re-opening the wounds afresh. Even now; those wounds are tender; and although I do go to church a bit; it is not every week like a 'real Adventist" is supposed to.

I can say that I am sure our friend Bravus has gone through similar ups and downs, and that different people have seen these as different things. I think that's all that's happened here. Some see us ex-Adventists as being bandied about and abused on the forum, yet others will see the blessings and the strong points of both sides.

In conclusion; I have noted one very remarkable fact that has been very consistent in my life - whether it was a time when I was Eder & lay Pastor, or, whether I was in ex-Adventist mode, and breaking the sabbath, and cursing the Adventists...

The fact is, is that God has never been absent from my life throughout it all. I have no choice but to admit that I see evidence of His hand during all these up & down experiences, in or out of the Church; and all I can say at this point of my journey is: "I can't wait to wake up every morning and see what Jesus is going to do next."

I would like to ask everyone participating in this thread to please accept my enclosed business card. I don't care what your status or standing in the Church is; I don't care what doctrines you acept; please, let's create a little unity in the Spirit; a little heaven on earth, just accept my business card, and then take it up with God and His Word, no matter what level or stage you are at in life. You may be in a time of life where you only see one set of footprints in your life path - and I would bet a lot that if this is the case; they may not be your's.

That was very cool

[John317]

...But some think, as Bravus has done, that if going to church is like banging your head on a wall, why do you want to continue to bang your head on the wall? It meets no one else's need...and you certainly don't like it...why continue to do it?

Of course, the Adventist church is placing itself in a neutered position...Why would anyone like to join a doctrinally correct church if they continue to get hurt....? Isn't that a sign of being dysfunctional???

Oh, the irony....

If you or any other member of the SDA church thinks that way now-- when the times and conditions are good-- what will they do when the Time of Trouble comes?

Think of being told that if you are SDA, you will be killed! That will happen.

So if we quit the Church because of getting "hurt," what will we do when we're REALLY HURT BAD under constant persecution and when it looks like we will be killed?

"Oh, the irony," is right!

Compare our easy way of life now with the rough times that millions of other Christians have lived through-- and died in-- over the last 2000 years. Compare it with the suffering endured by our pioneers.

We should be ashamed to talk about how we were hurt and therefore left the church. We should instead count ourselves blessed to "suffer" for the sake of Christ.

[Neil D]

We should be ashamed to talk about how we were hurt and therefore left the church. We should instead count ourselves blessed to "suffer" for the sake of Christ.

Excuse me????....Jesus said that they will know us by our love...

and since when does "the end justify the means"?

Bravus is leaving the church because of your attitudes and you say that it's ok?

Sorry, I believe that is a form of betrayal that was displayed, not love....

[Bravus]

Just by way of clarification, I'm pretty sure I didn't say I'd left the church because I'd been hurt. I laid out clear areas in which the values of the church and my values are incompatible. Not all of those are official church doctrine, but that's not actually an important distinction anyway in terms of the church's influence in the world.

No, my leaving was essentially a rational matter of reflecting on my own values and those displayed by Seventh-day Adventists and accepting that the gulf seemed impassable.

I will continue to have many SDA friends, but it was unhelpful to identify myself with some variation of 'I'm an SDA but I disagree with them on almost everything'. ;-)

[Neil D]

I'm sorry if I mistated your position....

I'm also sorry if I disagree with your last statement...

Quote:

I will continue to have many SDA friends, but it was unhelpful to identify myself with some variation of 'I'm an SDA but I disagree with them on almost everything'. ;-)

Based upon some discussions that we have had, I'd tend to think that you agree more with the SDA position than disagree with it...

1]For example, God exists....right?

2]Ten commandments was given by God to the world...right?

3]Bible is the clearest expression of God's will for mankind, as opposed to ...oh, say...the Koran?

4]Seventh day is God's Sabbath...right?

5] God created mankind...right?

Those are 'for starters"...I am curious...are you saying that you have major disagreements with the above questions?

[John317]

We should be ashamed to talk about how we were hurt and therefore left the church. We should instead count ourselves blessed to "suffer" for the sake of Christ.

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

Excuse me????....Jesus said that they will know us by our love...

and since when does "the end justify the means"?

Who said the ends justify the means"?

What are you talking about?

Did I say anything about people not loving? No. I am saying that if we think people in the church aren't showing love, that is no excuse to leave the church.

If we know what is right, we have an even greater responsibility to do right, NOT leave the church. How is leaving the church going to do any good? Did Jesus ever suggest we should leave the church if we feel someone has hurt us?

No. He said to forgive them, didn't He?

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

Bravus is leaving the church because of your attitudes and you say that it's ok?

Bravus is leaving because of people's attitudes? I thought he was leaving for substantive reasons, such as doctrine and intellectual matters. Now you are saying that Bravus is leaving for trivial matters such as some people's attitudes. That is more of an emotional reaction rather than one that is well thought through.

Bravus is a big man and someone who's been in the church for a long time. If he wants to leave the church, it shouldn't be because of people's attitudes.

Besides, it is not my attitude that is making Bravus leave the church.

If you think so, please quote my post and give the post number and title of discussion which you believe exemplifies the kind of attitude that is making him leave.

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

Sorry, I believe that is a form of betrayal that was displayed, not love....

What was betrayal?

Honesty is love and true love will cause people to be honest with those they love.

[ClubV12]

John317 makes a very important point, regardless of the "why", and the devil don't care, you left the church at some point, there will be no acceptable excuse before the throne of God.

I won't let anyone steal my crown because they didn't show me the love. Time to draw warmth from the coldness.

What kind of dedication did it take for the Waldenses to stay on the course? They fled for their very lives. The wives sang songs to their husbands while they burned at the stake.

Sister White says OUR time of trouble will be WORSE than anything the world has even seen. WORSE than the Crusades had to offer.

Scare tactics? See it anyway you want, it's prophecy. They didn't believe Noah either...

[Bravus]

News flash: being a member of the SDA church will not save you, and not being a member will not damn you.

[ClubV12]

Thats correct Bravus, never said it would or wouldn't.

Heres the problem with the scenario you present to THIS forum with that news flash.

IF your not living up to the light you have, you will be lost. IF you reject the light you have been given OR COULD HAVE DISCOVERED but refused to search for, you will be lost.

[Jeannieb43]

Back to your original posts in this thread, Bravus, I do agree that your differences with Adventism seem to be more cultural than doctrinal. But nevertheless, you are entitled to your own understanding of the Bible. Being called SDA does not convey sainthood.

I admire you; and your intelligence as demonstrated on C/A is of great edification.

Please keep coming back and honoring us with your contributions here.

[Bravus]

If you're not living up to the light you have, you will be lost.

Living up to the light I have is *exactly* why I've made the decision I have.

[Neil D]

Thats correct Bravus, never said it would or wouldn't.

[Overaged]

Back to your original posts in this thread, Bravus, I do agree that your differences with Adventism seem to be more cultural than doctrinal. But nevertheless, you are entitled to your own understanding of the Bible. Being called SDA does not convey sainthood.

I admire you; and your intelligence as demonstrated on C/A is of great edification.

Please keep coming back and honoring us with your contributions here.

[Overaged]

Thats correct Bravus, never said it would or wouldn't.

Heres the problem with the scenario you present to THIS forum with that news flash.

IF your not living up to the light you have, you will be lost. IF you reject the light you have been given OR COULD HAVE DISCOVERED but refused to search for, you will be lost.

The same goes for you.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: hamilton-beach

...But some think, as Bravus has done, that if going to church is like banging your head on a wall, why do you want to continue to bang your head on the wall? It meets no one else's need...and you certainly don't like it...why continue to do it?

Of course, the Adventist church is placing itself in a neutered position...Why would anyone like to join a doctrinally correct church if they continue to get hurt....? Isn't that a sign of being dysfunctional???

Oh, the irony....

If you or any other member of the SDA church thinks that way now-- when the times and conditions are good-- what will they do when the Time of Trouble comes?

Think of being told that if you are SDA, you will be killed! That will happen.

So if we quit the Church because of getting "hurt," what will we do when we're REALLY HURT BAD under constant persecution and when it looks like we will be killed?

"Oh, the irony," is right!

Compare our easy way of life now with the rough times that millions of other Christians have lived through-- and died in-- over the last 2000 years. Compare it with the suffering endured by our pioneers.

We should be ashamed to talk about how we were hurt and therefore left the church. We should instead count ourselves blessed to "suffer" for the sake of Christ.