miz3 Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 You're right, I don't want this to become an Origins thread. Origins discussion destroys everything in its path on the web. I tried to resist but got drawn in, but can I request that people please take all Origins discussion to another thread from now on, since it's off topic for this thread (as one of many issues raised) and will swamp what I think has the potential to be a useful discussion. Sorry Bravus, but I guess I got sucked into the Black Hole before I got to this post of yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 fccool says. "One must put religious preservation above his children...." Thats still true, and it applies to your wife, family, job even your life. NOTHING in this world is of higher value. Overaged, Laodecia are typically those WITHIN the church, not those who have left! For those who have had a chance to hear the good news there is ONLY ONE way to the Kingdom, believe and accept Jesus as your personal Saviour. It is a choice each of us will have to make. Once again.... Being true to your heart, following your conscience, trusting your feelings, being a good man, a loving person, helping the poor, a wonderful husband/wife, a great father/mother,,, won't gain you salvation if you have not accepted Jesus as your Saviour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igakusei Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Each of us must choose a God to follow. Some of us choose to follow Jesus, other choose to follow Allah, others choose other deities. Some choose to follow their own ability to reason thus making themselves into their own personal deity. Those that make a god out of reason do not usually look for reasons to follow any given religion. They tend to be more concerned about casting doubt than spreading hope. It is said that misery loves company and typically we find those that believe only in themselves trying to drag others into their world of misery. Common sense itself calls us to avoid such a pit. In my experience (your mileage may vary), living in fear of knowledge and the evil thoughts in your own head is a far, far more depressing place than the acknowledgement that this Earth and this life is probably all we'll ever have. And the latter view pushes me much more strongly towards making this world a better place. After all if this one is just the prelude to an eternity of bliss, why should we care about what happens to it? I believe in life before death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Shane Each of us must choose a God to follow. Some of us choose to follow Jesus, other choose to follow Allah, others choose other deities. Some choose to follow their own ability to reason thus making themselves into their own personal deity. Those that make a god out of reason do not usually look for reasons to follow any given religion. They tend to be more concerned about casting doubt than spreading hope. It is said that misery loves company and typically we find those that believe only in themselves trying to drag others into their world of misery. Common sense itself calls us to avoid such a pit. In my experience (your mileage may vary), living in fear of knowledge and the evil thoughts in your own head is a far, far more depressing place than the acknowledgement that this Earth and this life is probably all we'll ever have. And the latter view pushes me much more strongly towards making this world a better place. After all if this one is just the prelude to an eternity of bliss, why should we care about what happens to it? Good point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 In my experience (your mileage may vary), living in fear of knowledge and the evil thoughts in your own head is a far, far more depressing place than the acknowledgement that this Earth and this life is probably all we'll ever have. And the latter view pushes me much more strongly towards making this world a better place. After all if this one is just the prelude to an eternity of bliss, why should we care about what happens to it? Yet, if this is all we have, then why is your approach any better than the approach of one who spends those few years in getting all the self rewarding pleasures that they can procure, even at the expense of others? Didn't the Romans split between the Epicurean and the Stoic? How will any effort on your part make any difference in the eventual trajection of this Earth? Someone much smarter than you and I once commented that apart from the knowledge of the coming judgment "all is meaningless." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted November 15, 2011 Administrators Share Posted November 15, 2011 Quote: You and others are totally missing my point. I didn't say that Bravus said/did any such thing. What I meant with my wry sense of humor above here is that Bravus has simply exclaimed that the church has proffered herself as something, [to him] desirable to aim for; yet in reality, and in practice, they failed to live up to what they proffered to others. He simply portrayed a struggle that many have which is very real, and to him, the best solution was to still try and preserve the ideals, where his life and circumstance would allow. Everyone is so fast to defend the church rather than just listen to people and see what is going on and what they are saying. Bravus may not be as "wrong" here as some would imply So say the church was a place where noble people were found, that embraced humility and altruism abounded, all the ideals that are found in the Bible veritably reproduced in its members. Would that make a difference? It's worth some thought... Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 In my experience (your mileage may vary), living in fear of knowledge and the evil thoughts in your own head is a far, far more depressing place than the acknowledgement that this Earth and this life is probably all we'll ever have. If the reality of your concluding statement is, in fact, not true, then the truthfulness of your first statement would apply also to that conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 So say the church was a place where noble people were found, that embraced humility and altruism abounded, all the ideals that are found in the Bible veritably reproduced in its members. Would that make a difference? It's worth some thought... Sounds like heaven before,during, and after Satan's rebellion. "Why I am a Former Archangel"? Perfect environments do not guarantee perfect responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted November 15, 2011 Administrators Share Posted November 15, 2011 No, not perfection. I am thinking that in years gone by, say around the 1800s, people considered character virtues more seriously than they do now, generally. I got that idea when for a time I read stories from the era. People seemed to suffer hardship, even dying, with a dignity that is not the same today. Hmm... hard to explain. Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoAspen Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 >Everyone is so fast to defend the church rather than just listen to people and see what is going on and what they are saying. Bravus may not be as "wrong" here as some would imply.< Excellent!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted November 15, 2011 Administrators Share Posted November 15, 2011 It hasn't been my experience that my fellow church members here are so "heavenly minded that they are no earthly good." I've been acquainted with many genuinely generous, compassionate people. But I know that that is not the way it's been for everyone. I suppose it may come down to people's expectations, or like Bravus, knowing Bible principles but not seeing them working out in members' lives, a frustration. Just tossing out ideas... Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted November 15, 2011 Administrators Share Posted November 15, 2011 >Everyone is so fast to defend the church rather than just listen to people and see what is going on and what they are saying. Bravus may not be as "wrong" here as some would imply.< Excellent!!!! Yes, I agree. I thought it was worth noting, too. Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igakusei Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Yet, if this is all we have, then why is your approach any better than the approach of one who spends those few years in getting all the self rewarding pleasures that they can procure, even at the expense of others? Didn't the Romans split between the Epicurean and the Stoic? How will any effort on your part make any difference in the eventual trajection of this Earth? Someone much smarter than you and I once commented that apart from the knowledge of the coming judgment "all is meaningless." Because I'm not a sociopath. The golden rule was around long before Christianity was. If you need a sky daddy to help you play well with others, I'm worried about your underlying character. Remember the sermon about the guy throwing stranded starfish back into the ocean? A critic comes along and mocks him, saying "there are many thousands of starfish out here on the beach and they'll be dead in a few hours, nothing you do will really make a difference." The man picks up another starfish, flicks it back into the ocean, and remarks with a sly smile: "It made a difference for that one. Yes, if my view is true nothing I can possibly do will make any difference at all in the extreme long run. But I can make a difference to some of those that are passing through life around the same time as me, and it's awfully nihilistic of you to suggest that because I can't do everything, it's not worth doing anything. Really, when you say stuff like this it makes me worry about you. I believe in life before death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug yowell Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Indeed: but then, of all the people I know both face-to-face and online, BobRyan is the single individual who I would say is least in touch with reality. Whew!! That's a relief for many of us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted November 15, 2011 Administrators Share Posted November 15, 2011 ...Everyone is so fast to defend the church rather than just listen to people and see what is going on and what they are saying... A succinct and very accurate observation of the sad reality we see here over and over again. I would expand it further to say that too many are also so very fast to defend their own opinions and fragile egos rather than just listen to people and see what is going on and what they are saying. The value of the other is highly under-rated... "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igakusei Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Someone much smarter than you and I once commented that apart from the knowledge of the coming judgment "all is meaningless." Objectively meaningless, yes. But that doesn't stop each of us from creating and choosing subjective meaning for our own lives. And yes, people will disagree over what is meaningful and what isn't, and inevitably lines will be crossed and feelings will be hurt. So we get together as a society and we create a government to protect our rights and provide each of us with a framework within which we can achieve life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. People have argued that religion is *useful* despite not necessarily being correct because it provides people with just such a framework. But one of the problems with most religions is that they assume that what works for some people should work for everyone, and they try to declare specific objective meanings onto everyone's lives. Things aren't that simple. I believe in life before death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 15, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 15, 2011 Just a brief note that the last couple of pages of this thread have to some extent been discussing a hypothetical 'Bravus' who is not me. My decision to leave the formal church organisation but cling on to God is my own and is not predicated on anyone else's behaviour toward me. The only way in which others' behaviour has impacted me is that I have looked at the doctrines as lived as well as at the doctrines as espoused. After all, belief is a disposition to act, so what we do shows what we *truly* believe. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 15, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 15, 2011 Some may have misunderstood this statement (and I may not have said it clearly): Quote: It might be disturbing to some here to hear it, but this place has also contributed to the developments in my thinking that have led to me now identifying myself as a 'former SDA'. When issues are discussed in detail, both positions and hearts become clearer, and it became clearer to me over time that my heart was not in tune with the positions of the Seventh-day Adventist church. What I was trying to say was *not* 'people here are mean', not at all. It was that the process of deep discussion - iron sharpening iron, if you like - pushed me to really struggle with, think through and understand my own beliefs. Without these discussions the papering over of the vague cognitive dissonance I was feeling could have dragged on for decades, but deep discussion with smart people forced me to really *think*. And that's a good thing. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I don't think I understand the comments concerning "defend the church", I'm not sure what that means. There is a christian view point based on the bible, are we supposed to ignore that or not speak of it lest we be seen as "defending the church" or something? Is it more politically correct to seek some kind of common ground or unity and just put the bible to one side or what? Unity at any cost, is that the deal? I don't get it, I don't see this thing called "defending the church". So if biblical principles are not allowed (that disturbing idea that,gasp, someone might be defending the church), then I suggest that scientific principles should not be allowed either. Those who are "defending evolution" should just stop it and listen! What ever it is were listening to, don't mention the church, God, the bible, evolution or science. Instead lets just focus on unicorns, teddy bears, rainbows and love. Disregard any biblical or scientific principles and just go with the flow folks. Open your mind, let your brains fall out, and lets have a "real" conversation. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 16, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 16, 2011 Dude, maybe read again. No-one is objecting to defending the church or its beliefs. What Overaged said is that 'people rush to defend the church rather than listening'. I'm afraid you've illustrated rather than rebutted his point... Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 And a couple of other people agreed with that opinion. I don't! I think the concept of someone "rushing to defend the church instead of listening" is bogus. Not "ya'll quit rushing to defend evolution" and try listen. Same, same... Like this: "...Everyone is so fast to defend the church rather than just listen to people and see what is going on and what they are saying..." To which we have a reply: "A succinct and very accurate observation of the sad reality we see here over and over again." Ha Ha,,, it's ridiculous on it's face, no rebuttal required. Obvioulsy, your not listening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 16, 2011 Members Share Posted November 16, 2011 I can understand listening to what others have to say, I do also understand defending the church. The problem with defending the church per say, is there are many different churches to defend. So I would change that to "I defend the Bible." I believe the Bible has the values that we need to defend. Than we need to also look at the church that most represents the Bible! And that would be the SDA church. So I see it as SDA who defend the church are really defending the Bible! Is that the way others see it? Just throwing that out. phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I often wonder at the need for a church. Why can't one just read the bible for themselves and follow God on their own? The need for an organized group to validate ones interpretation is beyond me. Maybe a social group of like minded people - or even an organized study group with all striving to get the most out of the study. To support and push each other. But why the need for doctrine and dogma? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 16, 2011 Members Share Posted November 16, 2011 To encourage each other, but obviously that doesn't always come across does it. And yes I don't think there is anything wrong with small groups. Some day that will be the norm. Its the norm in a lot of countries where worship and religion are not allowed, or even against the law. EmptyCross, starting out with reading the Bible is always a plus. This should be our guide. phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted November 16, 2011 Author Moderators Share Posted November 16, 2011 The book 'So you don't want to go to church any more' is well worth reading for everyone, whether in fact they do want to keep going to church or not. Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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