M. T. Cross Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 To avoid taking the original thread this was posted in off its original topic I am starting this one Originally Posted By: ClubV12 There are about a dozen specific reasons in the church manual that are a cause for disfellowshiping, these are the absolute minimum requirements to maintain your membership within the church. Funny, when I got kicked out at the age of 19 the reason that was given to me. See I smoked, drank, did drugs, was in a metal band, wore make up, had long hair, was fornicating like a rabid bunny on super amped viagra. But none of these well known facts was the reason I was given. See I was not paying tithe from the income I didn't have. I got a nice little letter stating that since I had moved and had not registered with a new church and began tithing to that church my name was to be taken off the books. I was also told that since the author of the letter was aware that my personal relationship to Jesus meant everything to me it would be in my best intrest to get myself registered in a local church and pay to God what was Gods. It seems that 10% of salvation is too come out of your pocketbook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Now here is my question. Say Club is right and I was not kicked out for the tithing issue. ( I was but thats not the point) Should a member be given the reason for their disfellowhip? Should that not be a long conversation between a church elder/pastor and that member? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Tithing is not a test of fellowship in the Adventist Church. If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Tithing is not a test of fellowship in the Adventist Church. If that is the official stance of the church, then I was clearly lied to and I would have to guess that in having me disfellowshipped some other reason would have had to been given to the GC. Now - that goes to the other question I asked. Should there not be a dialogue between the member getting the boot and an elder or pastor? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Tithing is not a test of fellowship in the Adventist Church..... This may be true but in my experiance it is one of the questions asked of the one being baptised in front of the church. Then there are the subtle and not so subtle ways the SDA church discriminates against one which they have no record of his monthly income or giving to causes within the church. How confidental are the conference/local church records of this giving or lack thereof? Is this information given to members who do give as a reason they need to give more? Why are individuals told they cannot hold church positions because they do not tithe? At least those judging them have no such record. The outright contempt by conference employees and those closely connected to them is hard to ignore. No it may sound good to say it is not a test of fellowship but that is not the complete picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted November 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 12, 2011 Who returns the tithe and who does not has been always been a confidential matter in ALL the churches I've ever held my membership in. And I don't recall hearing of anyone being barred from holding a church office because he/she did not return tithe. However, that sounds like a good idea. Why should anyone who doesn't support the organization he/she is in be allowed to have decision/policy-making powers in it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Who returns the tithe and who does not has been always been a confidential matter in ALL the churches I've ever held my membership in. And I don't recall hearing of anyone being barred from holding a church office because he/she did not return tithe. However, that sounds like a good idea. Why should anyone who doesn't support the organization he/she is in be allowed to have decision/policy-making powers in it? .........You have been more fortunate in the churches you have belonged to than I. I was not talking about making policy or major decisions. Just to belong and be given the opportunity to grow spiritually. We know that the decisions and policies are the exclusive territory of you "LORDS". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 It seems to me that policy and reality are two very seperate things. That is not surprising, because the church is made up of people, and people are prone to create a political and clique based enviroment pretty much anywhere you get more than 2 of them together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Emptycross says, "It seems to me that policy and reality are two very seperate things." The REALITY is, we have some internet rumors that suggest people are treated badly in some way because they don't pay tithe. It is certainly NOT the official position of the Seventh-day Adventist church. IF, this was occuring with any regularity within any given church I have no doubt the Conference would be involved and the Pastor would be "called on the carpet" to answer for it. The REALITY is, this would be a very rare occurence, we have only RUMORS and GOSSIP to sustain the allegations. I will not be a party to rumor mongering. I like Gerrys idea though, why SHOULD someone be allowed to hold a church office if they are NOT supporting the church with tithe AND offerings? As an office holder they are representing the church at large, how would you feel about your Congressman representing you not paying taxes? Common sense.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 12, 2011 Author Share Posted November 12, 2011 Rumours and gossip? Club - why don't you just directly come out and call me a liar? It would save you a lot of typing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 12, 2011 Share Posted November 12, 2011 Not just YOU Emptycross, you have shared your testimony, that TITHE was why you disfellowshiped. CLEARLY this is NOT in keeping with the church manual. IF, and I say again, IF, that was the case there are several considerations. One: You are mistaken, though you belive it, you have missed the point, it was not a "tithe" issue. You need to dialog with the church and clear the issue up if it bothers you as much as it appears to. Two: The church made a serious mistake if indeed they did consider tithe to be an issue. It should be brought to the attention of the Conference and an apology issued. This does NOT mean your membership should be restored, that is a separate issue which the church will have to look at. Three: We have additional reports on this thread that cannot be considered any more valid than "rumor" concerning the tithe issue. These are serious charges against the church, I will not entertain or support "rumors" of this nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 12, 2011 Members Share Posted November 12, 2011 Rumours and gossip? Club - why don't you just directly come out and call me a liar? It would save you a lot of typing. Because if I know Club well enough from his postings here on C/A he would never do that. I believe that he's having a problem with your problem of being disfellowshiped for something that is not an official disfellowship issue in the church. I also have a problem with that. And on a previous post OA mentioned that he has seen that also. So I can understand his hesitation to believe that. Did they give you a piece of paper which states that. If they did, why don't you scan it in and show him the evidence. I know of some that have done much worse than you and have never been disfellowshiped. As a matter of fact my Mom who was a treasure at two different churches also knew of a number of members that never paid tithe and they were not disfellowshiped, so you can see the problem here. So maybe you can clear this up. Thanks for listening EmptyCross. phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 PK - that was 22 years ago. I have not held on to anything I had back then. Truth be told I was so upset I burned the letter after making a couple calls to check if this letter was the actual desire of the church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 One of the things really important to me in a spiritual walk is that we can leave the past behind. What was then, doesn't matter today, you can be a new man in Christ. Keep moving forward Emptycross, God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 EC, I sympathize with your feelings of 22-years ago. I would add only this: There is a myth in our society that says "Time heals all wounds." Sounds good but, it isn't true. Isn't true. Now, time does provide many opportunities to resolve past hurts, but it won't automatically heal them. We get better or we get worse as we get older. "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted November 13, 2011 Members Share Posted November 13, 2011 PK - that was 22 years ago. I have not held on to anything I had back then. Truth be told I was so upset I burned the letter after making a couple calls to check if this letter was the actual desire of the church. What I've found, and olger has eluded to it, forgiveness is a great tool. Doesn't matter who the wronged party is or was, forgiveness does wonders for the soul. phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 13, 2011 Author Share Posted November 13, 2011 There really is nothing to forgive. In hindsight being disfellowshiped might have been one of the biggest favours ever done me. I just find the reason given me disgusting and petty. Now with the information you guys have put out there makes it more so. Like I said in the other thread - I never had a problem with tithing. It was one of the few SDA things I had no problem with. That makes it a bit ironic. I just did not pay tithe cause 10% of nothing is nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Sorry to say this, but there is no excuse for not paying tithe or giving offerings under any circumstances. The widow who dropped her two mites into the offering plate denied herself FOOD to bring what offering she could. THIS was true sacrifice and Jesus blessed her for it. There was another widow, who prepared a cake for the prophet, as God directed, and then prepared for death from starvation. Not only for her, but for her son. What faith is that!!! Abraham prepared to offer his own son, as God did! Sacrifice we can barely comprehend. This is not the first report we have heard that "nothing from nothing is nothing" and "thats why" I couldn't pay tithe or make an offering. There simply is no excuse, I understand the delima, the reasoning, but compared to the sacred record, there simply can not be an excuse. "Now with the information you guys have put out there makes it more so." Pharohs heart was hardened all the more.... Let Jesus soften your heart Emptycross before it's to late. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 No you don't understand Club ZERO income. How does one pay tithe off of that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 No judgment on you there Emptycross, I feel very sorry for your trials in this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liz Posted November 14, 2011 Share Posted November 14, 2011 No you don't understand Club ZERO income. How does one pay tithe off of that? I'm going to wade into this conversation, and say, that you don't pay tithe off of zero income. However, you can "offer" your time to help others. I'm sorry you were treated so badly EmptyCross, unlike some of the others, I absolutely believe that that is why you were disfellowshipped. Sometimes the local churches do things that isn't "kosher" with the GC or even the local conference, but it doesn't stop them from doing it. We also don't pay tithe, right now our income doesn't even meet our monthly bills. We do give offerings to different charities, but nothing to our local church. There is a lot more to this story, of course. But we try and not let it get us down, what is really important is our relationship with GOD. Everything else will fall into place eventually. (((EmptyCross))) For what will a man be profited, if he gains the whole world, and forfeits his soul? Mat. 16:26Please, support the JDRF and help find a cure for Type 1 Diabetes. Please, support the March of Dimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted November 14, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 14, 2011 Should there not be a dialogue between the member getting the boot and an elder or pastor? Yes, indeed. And there usually is. I don't know what happened in your case, but did you want to be-- and do you still want to be-- a member of the church? Did you tell the church that you want to continue as a Seventh-day Adventist? The church, including pastors and elders, do make huge mistakes, but there are ways of correcting them if you want to. I'm very sorry that this wrong was done to you. I hope and pray that you are able to forgive the ones who wronged you and that you decide to return to Christ and to His Church. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 Sorry to say this, but there is no excuse for not paying tithe or giving offerings under any circumstances. The widow who dropped her two mites into the offering plate denied herself FOOD to bring what offering she could. THIS was true sacrifice and Jesus blessed her for it. There was another widow, who prepared a cake for the prophet, as God directed, and then prepared for death from starvation. Not only for her, but for her son. What faith is that!!! Abraham prepared to offer his own son, as God did! Sacrifice we can barely comprehend. And those stories always made me wonder. Wonder what kind of creature this God must be to ask that of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross No you don't understand Club ZERO income. How does one pay tithe off of that? I'm going to wade into this conversation, and say, that you don't pay tithe off of zero income. However, you can "offer" your time to help others. I'm sorry you were treated so badly EmptyCross, unlike some of the others, I absolutely believe that that is why you were disfellowshipped. Sometimes the local churches do things that isn't "kosher" with the GC or even the local conference, but it doesn't stop them from doing it. We also don't pay tithe, right now our income doesn't even meet our monthly bills. We do give offerings to different charities, but nothing to our local church. There is a lot more to this story, of course. But we try and not let it get us down, what is really important is our relationship with GOD. Everything else will fall into place eventually. (((EmptyCross))) Thank you Liz - I hope things pick up for you and yours. Making ends meet is a real trial for a good number of folks right now. Stay strong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted November 14, 2011 Author Share Posted November 14, 2011 Originally Posted By: EmptyCross Should there not be a dialogue between the member getting the boot and an elder or pastor? Yes, indeed. And there usually is. I don't know what happened in your case, but did you want to be-- and do you still want to be-- a member of the church? Did you tell the church that you want to continue as a Seventh-day Adventist? The church, including pastors and elders, do make huge mistakes, but there are ways of correcting them if you want to. I'm very sorry that this wrong was done to you. I hope and pray that you are able to forgive the ones who wronged you and that you decide to return to Christ and to His Church. At the time I did consider myself an Adventist. Not a good one but I did consider myself one. I was a punk kid trying out a lot of stuff. Well once it was made clear to me that I was getting kicked out over a money issue - and I did ask that question directly and without pulling any punches, I had no intrest in being a part of an organization that was more concerned with my money than my salvation. I have forgiven them. It was actually a dead issue to me until I saw tithing brought up - or mentioned in passing so many times in that "Real Adventist" thread. For the record- since the last time I attended a church at 18 years old, I have not been contacted by one Adventist about anything regarding my membership in the church other than that letter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts