The Red Herring (tithe and church membership)

[John317]

...For the record- since the last time I attended a church at 18 years old, I have not been contacted by one Adventist about anything regarding my membership in the church other than that letter.

I know how that is. I was out of the church for quite a few years and was never contacted either, except for my parents and other family members, who continued to love me and treat me the same as before. I sometimes attended church, but I was living in gay relationships. I don't even know if I was disfellowshipped. Probably not, since my membership was in one of the largest SDA churches in the world at that time. They probably didn't even know I wasn't attending regularly or what my lifestyle was, even though I had attended it since the age of 10. I had very good memories of that church and of the people there.

My grandmother went to that church from about 1935 to the time of her death in 1977, yet when she was sick for a long time, no one from the church came to visit her-- until we made a request. The pastor that used to visit her had moved away, and the current pastors (about 5) couldn't visit everyone (I guess).

To make a long story short, I came back to the church because the Holy Spirit drew me back to God. I was partying and having good times, and belonged to a political party whose members are all militant atheists, but during my studies at a public college, I began to have a hungering after God.

My gay lover, who had been Catholic, was baptized with me after studying the Bible and going to some SDA evangelistic meetings. I was actually shocked that he even went to those meeting with me. No one said anything to us, and we really didn't even talk it over with one another. But we both knew that making a decision for Christ meant we couldn't continue having the same kind of relationship. It wasn't all that easy emotionally to separate-- since we'd been planning to "marry"-- but we knew that it was what God wanted.

So I was rebaptized at that point, and I never even looked into the question of whether I had ever been disfellowshipped. I didn't think it mattered.

It has been a terrible struggle since then, especially until about 7 years ago, but today I think it was the best and most important decision I ever made.

[miz3]

EC, I sympathize with your feelings of 22-years ago. I would add only this: There is a myth in our society that says "Time heals all wounds." Sounds good but, it isn't true. Isn't true. Now, time does provide many opportunities to resolve past hurts, but it won't automatically heal them. We get better or we get worse as we get older.

I agree with this 100%.

However, there is a God in Heaven who can do anything. Nothing is impossible with God. He and He alone can and does heal all wounds. God wants us to come to Him with our hurts and wounds and to ask Him to heal them. All we have to do is ask and keep asking till God does something about them.

Sometimes we have to be persistent and patient which demonstrates our Faithfulness to God.

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

...For the record- since the last time I attended a church at 18 years old, I have not been contacted by one Adventist about anything regarding my membership in the church other than that letter.

I know how that is. I was out of the church for quite a few years and was never contacted either, except for my parents and other family members, who continued to love me and treat me the same as before. I sometimes attended church, but I was living in gay relationships. I don't even know if I was disfellowshipped. Probably not, since my membership was in one of the largest SDA churches in the world at that time. They probably didn't even know I wasn't attending regularly or what my lifestyle was, even though I had attended it since the age of 10. I had very good memories of that church and of the people there.

My grandmother went to that church from about 1935 to the time of her death in 1977, yet when she was sick for a long time, no one from the church came to visit her-- until we made a request. The pastor that used to visit her had moved away, and the current pastors (about 5) couldn't visit everyone (I guess).

To make a long story short, I came back to the church because the Holy Spirit drew me back to God. I was partying and having good times, and belonged to a political party whose members are all militant atheists, but during my studies at a public college, I began to have a hungering after God.

My gay lover, who had been Catholic, was baptized with me after studying the Bible and going to some SDA evangelistic meetings. I was actually shocked that he even went to those meeting with me. No one said anything to us, and we really didn't even talk it over with one another. But we both knew that making a decision for Christ meant we couldn't continue having the same kind of relationship. It wasn't all that easy emotionally to separate-- since we'd been planning to "marry"-- but we knew that it was what God wanted.

So I was rebaptized at that point, and I never even looked into the question of whether I had ever been disfellowshipped. I didn't think it mattered.

It has been a terrible struggle since then, especially until about 7 years ago, but today I think it was the best and most important decision I ever made.

Praise God!

I told you God can do the Impossible!

It may or may not happen "over night" but God knows best how to do His Work. And that work is "marvelous in our eyes".

[miz3]

What a God!

God is sooooooooooooooooo great it is beyond knowing and beyond our ability to describe.

Our privilege is to just stand and watch the Salvation of God for us.

Now that is LOVE!

[aldona]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

No you don't understand Club ZERO income.

How does one pay tithe off of that?

I'm going to wade into this conversation, and say, that you don't pay tithe off of zero income. However, you can "offer" your time to help others.

Typical of the way religious organizations treat their members - even if your income is zero, we will still find a way to suck SOMETHING out of you...time, or volunteer labor, or ANYTHING...

Not "if your income is zero, we will try to find a way to help you or minister to you. We could even help you find a job so that your income is no longer zero."

I'm glad you put "offer" in quotation marks.

AJ

[Liz]

Wow, I didn't realize I was a religious organization. I just meant that if his income is zero, he still has something to offer, which is himself.

Of course, if one wants to just sit there and pout and say "poor me poor me" one can do that too.

It's been my experience that one could actually starve to death waiting on the local church to do something to help one of its members.

[Gail]

EmptyCross, can I ask you a personal question? Well, maybe a couple...

Where are you at now, spiritually? Do you regret the church actions of so many years ago? Do you think it could/should have been handled differently?

[M. T. Cross]

EmptyCross, can I ask you a personal question? Well, maybe a couple...

Where are you at now, spiritually? Do you regret the church actions of so many years ago? Do you think it could/should have been handled differently?

Not a problem Gail

Spiritually I am in a very good place. I am closer to that divine love than I ever have been. Its not a Christian religion however I still hold Jesus very high in my thoughts.

I do regret the actions of the church at that time. It left me with such a bitterness for anything spiritual that I wasted many valuable years of my life turning my back on anything that hinted at religion or spirituality. I think I would still have arrived at where I am. I just wish I had not been that bitter.

Oh by far it could/should have been handled differently! I grew up with these people. Seriously - even a phonecall to ask me where I was at would have been a million times better if they were inclined to kick me out. As I stated before - there were many reasons why they could have. I would not have objected to any of them - but as I was sitting there half starving, hoping some girl that liked my band might show up with some food - telling me God did not want me because I had no cash for him was a bit of a blow. That it came from people I had trusted most my life was an even deeper blow.

Thing is this. I grew up in a small town with a very small church. I think we maxed out at 100 people including kids and people that showed up from out of town once a month. These were the people I grew up thinking were Gods chosen people. There had been a number of times that I had not been treated well by them and found a fair bit of hypocrisy in their actions - but I still trusted them. I tursted that if they said this was the will of the Church then it was the will of God. I had been taught that all my life. If I knew then what I know now..... but there is a huge difference between 19 and 41.

[Gail]

Thanks so much

So... what now? What do you foresee for your spiritual journey?

(Glad you are here, BTW)

[M. T. Cross]

Thank you Gail

My spiritual future?

To continue to seek out answers that reconcile my questions - regardless of where they may come from, and regardless of whether I like the answers or not.

Something that always bothered me growing was this. Many people, from the guy in the back row to the minister at the pulpit, become a part of a religion because it is a safety net. It makes them feel like they have an anchor. There is not really anything wrong with that - I am just not one of those people. What bothered me was that those people REALLY don't like it when you challenge what they believe. When you ask questions. When I was 9 years old I would sit and argue with the kids teacher on Sabbath cause I thought was he said was wrong or was not clear. I would walk up to the pastor and question things he had said in his sermon. No one liked that and sadly it caused my parents no small amount of grief.

So my path is one of seeking. Getting answers and then finding answers to the questions those answers bring up.

It is very exciting to me, and I relish the fact that I will likely not reach the end of the search in this lifetime LOL

[Overaged]

Thank you Gail

My spiritual future?

To continue to seek out answers that reconcile my questions - regardless of where they may come from, and regardless of whether I like the answers or not.

Something that always bothered me growing was this. Many people, from the guy in the back row to the minister at the pulpit, become a part of a religion because it is a safety net. It makes them feel like they have an anchor. There is not really anything wrong with that - I am just not one of those people. What bothered me was that those people REALLY don't like it when you challenge what they believe. When you ask questions. When I was 9 years old I would sit and argue with the kids teacher on Sabbath cause I thought was he said was wrong or was not clear. I would walk up to the pastor and question things he had said in his sermon. No one liked that and sadly it caused my parents no small amount of grief.

So my path is one of seeking. Getting answers and then finding answers to the questions those answers bring up.

It is very exciting to me, and I relish the fact that I will likely not reach the end of the search in this lifetime LOL

Well; when I was 9 years old; I was attending United Church Sunday School Classes. First, I would get a quarter from Mom for the offering; then i would go to the minister and tell him I had no money for the offering, and he would give me a quarter. I would keep both quarters and sometimes even skim another one from the plate as it was being passed down my row of pews. Then; as people were leaving the sanctuary, I would wait in the balcony to drop hymn books on people's heads. Those poor people likely wished that i would ask some questions.

But getting to the issue; I feel people here are just not listening to what you are saying...You have made some very significant statements about how the disfellowshipping has affected you; and I think certain ones are just in denial; they won't admit that such a thing can and does happen. Choosing to defend the church instead of dealing with reality is the response and I think that's wrong. Sure; we know the church's official position on this, but it is more common than we think for individual congregations to make such innapropriate decisions and actions. And all they can say is "prove it."

It's a very poor response to a very serious problem that does occurr. I have seen it myself. So lets just get over the 'did it really happen theology" and move in a direction that would be actually helpful folks. And supportive might be good too. EC is trying to discuss something that has hurt for years. Encouraging him to move on is good; a part of the reality, but to question his honesty/accuracy in what "really happened" is to me a defensive stance that has no right here. If this is how you want to "listen" to people who have been disfellowshipped or quit going to church; i would definitely NEVER take you with me to visit any such ones. it would just be a disaster.

[M. T. Cross]

OA - that really is my reason for bringing this up in the first place.

Part of my reason as an Ex Adventis, Ex Christian, in coming to Club Adventist in the first place was to get rid of some demons of my past. When I first came here in 2002 I realized I was not ready for that.

Partially this is on doctrine, some is to see if the more fanatical way I was raised was really the way of SDA's and yes - the reason for my disfellowship.

My reason for bringing the disfellowship up to you all here is this. To point out it is a really poor reason for kicking someone out. In finding out that it really ideed is not the official stance of the Church is a bit of a kick to the teeth, but I long ago learned that my trust in those people - with a couple exceptions - was misplaced. But I have continued to bring it up so that people realize it does happen. You can choose to not believe it, and if thats the case you do yourself and your fellow SDA's a real disservice. Only in acknowledging it can you help prevent it from happening to someone else. Because as I said to Gail, the rage I felt hampered me for years. I really would hate to see anyone else have thier spiritual journey handcuffed like that.

I am not here to change anyones mind on their faith or their beliefs. Where anyone is at spiritually is in the end between them and their God. I am here for great discussion and to free myself of that last bit of anger and hatred I felt towards this denomination.

[Overaged]

I am not here to change anyones mind on their faith or their beliefs. Where anyone is at spiritually is in the end between them and their God. I am here for great discussion and to free myself of that last bit of anger and hatred I felt towards this denomination.

This is the impression that I have been getting. I appreciate your honesty and your respectful attitude here on the forum; and I hope and pray that atleast some of us will be able to help & support you. On that note; I made a photo for you that I thought would be good here.

[ClubV12]

I hope and pray that at least some of us will be able to help & support the Adventist church as well.

Disfellowshipping church members for not paying tithe is NOT COMMON by any stretch of the imagination. Incredibly rare is the reality.

[Overaged]

Disfellowshipping church members for not paying tithe is NOT COMMON by any stretch of the imagination. Incredibly rare is the reality.

I said that it is "more common than we think;" and what is very common is that Elders , and other leaders are removed from their office pretty quick if they fall short in the tithe...

The major point being that the tithe doctrine is not only misunderstood by many; it is mis-used.

Your thought that it is not official policy is important to add to the mix as well. People need to know that

[ClubV12]

Page 53 of the Church Manual:

"To Foster Tithing—

As one who faithfully returns tithe, the elder can do much to encourage the church members to return a faithful tithe. (See pp. 163-165, 221.) Anyone who fails to set an example in this important matter should not be elected to the position of elder or to any other church office."

[Overaged]

Page 53 of the Church Manual:

"To Foster Tithing—

As one who faithfully returns tithe, the elder can do much to encourage the church members to return a faithful tithe. (See pp. 163-165, 221.) Anyone who fails to set an example in this important matter should not be elected to the position of elder or to any other church office."

[ClubV12]

"What is our influence over these fellow travelers?"

A good question. It has been suggested the church has made grave and serious mistakes by not allowing those who do not pay tithe to hold office. This is in opposition to the churches stated position on tithe paying as it relates to holding office, which forbids holding office for those who do not pay tithe.

What influence will fighting against the church manual instructions have on your fellow travelers?

[Overaged]

Well; your response is somewhat predictable; but the context of this so far is that of tithe and church membership. And what i am trying to say is that "tithe" is not always an accurate guage of what's going on with a person's spiritual life. I have personally sat in on a board meeting where an elder was demoted for "not tithing" and it was because he was not working. It sounds unfair, and it's not "official policy" but it happens. people don't take the time to see whats really happening, and yes, mistakes are made.

[ClubV12]

"I have personally sat in on a board meeting where an elder was demoted for "not tithing" and it was because he was not working."

I'm not sure I know what "demoted" means, one option would have been to remove him from office entirely, if the church manual was followed to the letter. It appears the church was applying a form of disciplinary action that stopped short of removal from office.

However, the widow who dropped her two mites in the offering plate,,, wasn't working either.

It is clear, tithing is not a valid reason for disfellowship for anybody, under any circumstances. There are many reasons for censure, non-transfer of membership, removal from office and other disciplinary actions.

[Stan]

I have never seen anyone 'demoted' for that.

BUT why would someone want to be a leader in an organization that they did not believe in it enough to support it?

That would go for Lions Club, Boys and Girls Club, a Church even ClubAdventist?

WHY?

[CoAspen]

>.....even ClubAdventist?<

And the money is pouring in!!

[Stan]

.... if only.....

But the principal is still the same... why be just a taker from an organization you believe in?

Even Universities are beneficiaries from Alumni and members.

I have seen more than once, a calming effect goes over people when they begin tithing... the spiritual roller coaster stops...

[CoAspen]

"What is our influence over these fellow travelers?"

A good question. It has been suggested the church has made grave and serious mistakes by not allowing those who do not pay tithe to hold office. This is in opposition to the churches stated position on tithe paying as it relates to holding office, which forbids holding office for those who do not pay tithe.

What influence will fighting against the church manual instructions have on your fellow travelers?

So what you are saying is that no job no church office!!! Really?? Are you sure about that??? I reckon a lot of people, or most, do not understand the tithe philosophy. It is not a club to be used against people or an entry requirement or anything esle meant to be used in a negative way. That is not what The God of the Bible wants. Oh and before the SS monies are brought up, that is not an increase but a decrease in income. If some one has been tithing on all benefits they have already tithed that income. For an organization to tell someone they can't hold church office because they are living off SS or their own saved income, is a perversion of the titheing concept. In my opinion!!

[CoAspen]

.... if only.....

But the principal is still the same... why be just a taker from an organization you believe in?

Even Universities are beneficiaries from Alumni and members.

I have seen more than once, a calming effect goes over people when they begin tithing... the spiritual roller coaster stops...

I was raised with a Good Example, my mother. We were poor, but no matter the circumstances, she made sure of tithe and offerings, if ony a few dollars or, literaly, nickels, dimes or quarters. For me, its a way of keeping myself from becoming selfish and recognizing the needs of others. But, but, I would not begin to make anyone else follow my reasoning. I believe it is an issue between myself and God.