The Red Herring (tithe and church membership)

[Liz]

I was raised with a Good Example, my mother. We were poor, but no matter the circumstances, she made sure of tithe and offerings, if ony a few dollars or, literaly, nickels, dimes or quarters. For me, its a way of keeping myself from becoming selfish and recognizing the needs of others. But, but, I would not begin to make anyone else follow my reasoning. I believe it is an issue between myself and God.

Yes, this!!!

[ClubV12]

CoAspen says,

"So what you are saying is that no job no church office."

Uh no... having a job or being unemployed makes no difference on whether you hold office or not. The issue is tithe, according to the church manual. As every case is different then every case must be considered separately, by the church board. They ALONE are privy to the details of each case, the membership is not. We can support the board, argue with the board, get mad and leave the church, stop paying ourselves as a way of "punishing" the board, we can do all kinds of things to show our displeasure. May I suggest that we first follow Mathew 18 before "slandering the board" when we don't even know the details.

Write a letter to the Conference if need be. Straight and to the point, with the facts as you know them. None of this "Rumor has it...". Or, "I heard from someone that...." Or, "Mr. So and so was kicked out of the churh because..." Do you KNOW if he was kicked out, or is that something you heard? Did he became bitter and request his name removed from the church books? That is FAR different than being disfellowshiped. The details matter when serious allegations are being made.

[monty]

First off it is an insult to EC to name this thread "The Red Herring" A member has opened up a painful and significant experiance with the church and he has been disbelieved and indirectly been told to sell his shoes and give the dollar to the church! Walking with our Savior is a growing experiance and the church should be a safe place to do it. There is plenty of blame to go around. Where is a safe place to verbalize your experiance and find understanding and acceptance? This is a test of the value of this site among other things. I hope it does not fail. It is interesting to observe those who are the recipients of church monies are the most strident in responce. Stan, in answer to your question about being a taker. I haven't recieved anything from the church and I am talking decades. Zero. Why would a person want to belong to such an organization? Because God has created us as social beings and it is the remnant church. Is it neccesary to belong to be saved? I think not but it would be good if one could. Read John 17, that was Jesus wish for us. I see a real differance between those who live in the denominational cacoon and those who have had to work in and under those in the pagan world. There is a real disconnect in our experiances. To deny those who have experianced a different world because we have the power to do so is not charitable. By the way ClubV12 which V/12 do you drive, Mercedes Benz or BMW, probably not Ferrari thats perhaps to upscale, even for you. :)

[Overaged]

Club, the matter I mentioned was eventually figured out after I made a stink about it, but by then so much damage was done not just to the person who was booted out of office, but to his whole family, that they stayed away from church for three years. The whole thing could have been avoided. This is not exactly a tithing issue; just as with EC, the OP, there are other issues involved, and if the church would have done things differently; it is my suggestion that he may not have left the church. Sometimes we push them out the door, and then justify ourselves by saying it was "their decision." As the "remnant;" we don't want to be told; we want to tell. But I believe the Bible tells us that 'the law is [only] good if we use it lawfully." EC called the tithe thing a "red-herring" for a reason - because it is in some cases, like his own, just the tip of the iceberg, for the underlying problem...

[Overaged]

First off it is an insult to EC to name this thread "The Red Herring" A member has opened up a painful and significant experiance with the church and he has been disbelieved and indirectly been told to sell his shoes and give the dollar to the church! Walking with our Savior is a growing experiance and the church should be a safe place to do it. There is plenty of blame to go around. Where is a safe place to verbalize your experiance and find understanding and acceptance? This is a test of the value of this site among other things. I hope it does not fail. It is interesting to observe those who are the recipients of church monies are the most strident in responce. Stan, in answer to your question about being a taker. I haven't recieved anything from the church and I am talking decades. Zero. Why would a person want to belong to such an organization? Because God has created us as social beings and it is the remnant church. Is it neccesary to belong to be saved? I think not but it would be good if one could. Read John 17, that was Jesus wish for us. I see a real differance between those who live in the denominational cacoon and those who have had to work in and under those in the pagan world. There is a real disconnect in our experiances. To deny those who have experianced a different world because we have the power to do so is not charitable. By the way ClubV12 which V/12 do you drive, Mercedes Benz or BMW, probably not Ferrari thats perhaps to upscale, even for you.

[Overaged]

By the way ClubV12 which V/12 do you drive, Mercedes Benz or BMW, probably not Ferrari thats perhaps to upscale, even for you.

Well; he should be driving this:

[CoAspen]

CoAspen says,

"So what you are saying is that no job no church office."

Uh no... having a job or being unemployed makes no difference on whether you hold office or not. The issue is tithe, according to the church manual. As every case is different then every case must be considered separately, by the church board. They ALONE are privy to the details of each case, the membership is not. We can support the board, argue with the board, get mad and leave the church, stop paying ourselves as a way of "punishing" the board, we can do all kinds of things to show our displeasure. May I suggest that we first follow Mathew 18 before "slandering the board" when we don't even know the details.

Write a letter to the Conference if need be. Straight and to the point, with the facts as you know them. None of this "Rumor has it...". Or, "I heard from someone that...." Or, "Mr. So and so was kicked out of the churh because..." Do you KNOW if he was kicked out, or is that something you heard? Did he became bitter and request his name removed from the church books? That is FAR different than being disfellowshiped. The details matter when serious allegations are being made.

So how, if no job, does one pay tithe???

[M. T. Cross]

Wow, I totally regret bringing it up.......

Let just do this.

I am wrong, this is a frigment of my imagination. I must have read that letter wrong, and I was kicked out for something else. The church is perfect and nothing like this ever happens.

Is that good?

[ClubV12]

This thread is a "Red Herring" because it was broken out of another thread on a different topic. THIS topic was a Red Herring to THAT thread, which was not about a tithe issue at all. Hence the title.

I will not be part of a mob ready to condem the church when they cannot defend themselves. A mob that is willing to sacrifice principle and reason to the god of emotion and unity at any cost. I have heard Emptycross' allegations, I sympathize with his plight, I give him the benefit of the doubt. But I will not condem the church without a fair hearing. We have no idea what the full circumstances are. It was 20 years ago, we will never know.

[Overaged]

Wow, I totally regret bringing it up.......

Let just do this.

I am wrong, this is a frigment of my imagination. I must have read that letter wrong, and I was kicked out for something else. The church is perfect and nothing like this ever happens.

Is that good?

EC, some people just never get it. They will just keep digging and digging; heaping insult upon insult till their "opponent" quits.

[Overaged]

This thread is a "Red Herring" because it was broken out of another thread on a different topic. THIS topic was a Red Herring to THAT thread, which was not about a tithe issue at all. Hence the title.

I will not be part of a mob ready to condem the church when they cannot defend themselves. A mob that is willing to sacrifice principle and reason to the god of emotion and unity at any cost. I have heard Emptycross' allegations, I sympathize with his plight, I give him the benefit of the doubt. But I will not condem the church without a fair hearing. We have no idea what the full circumstances are. It was 20 years ago, we will never know.

That's fine but now you are a part of another mob who will equally condemn anyone who does not meet your mind. No one here has "condemned" the church. No ONE. You have totally missed the point if that's what you really think.

I re-affirm my position that I would NEVER in a milion years go to visit any inactive church member with you. It would be a disaster. Just like it is now. You appear to be totally unable to just listen to them and see what is really going on.

[M. T. Cross]

This thread is a "Red Herring" because it was broken out of another thread on a different topic. THIS topic was a Red Herring to THAT thread, which was not about a tithe issue at all. Hence the title.

I will not be part of a mob ready to condem the church when they cannot defend themselves. A mob that is willing to sacrifice principle and reason to the god of emotion and unity at any cost. I have heard Emptycross' allegations, I sympathize with his plight, I give him the benefit of the doubt. But I will not condem the church without a fair hearing. We have no idea what the full circumstances are. It was 20 years ago, we will never know.

No I used the term cause it seemed to fit period.

I fail to see where anyone condemned the church. Pointing out something that is just wrong - one thing - is not a condemnation. If I point out to one of my kids that they should not cut toward themselves cause it will hurt them is that a condemnation?

As far as principals and reason..... wow. Seriously. Expecting people to give 10% of zero is reason? C'mon.

Allegations? No sir this is fact. Yes it was 20 years ago, but I know what happened, I shared that and now you know. I have less than zero to gain by making this up. I told you the full circumstances. I told you all the other stuff I could have been kicked out for. I told you the reason I was given. These are all fact.

As far as I can see its really easy to disbelieve me - cause I am no longer an Adventist. So if you give it the right spin in logic I must have some vendetta against the SDA church. But that is a totally misplaced assumption. Again - nothing to gain by lying. I do however have something to gain by being honest about it. So do practicing Adventists if they use this to identify a problem and ensure it does not happen to someone else in their congregation.

Take it for what its worth.

I am done beating my head against the wall with you about it. Either you think I am telling the truth or you think I am lying. There are your absolutes.

[ClubV12]

"Allegations? No sir this is fact."

Uh,,, no, it's not a "fact", it's an allegation. There is not ONE person on this thread that knows whether it is a fact or not, some believe your allegations, as for myself, it remains unclear. Maybe it is, but it is more likely a misunderstanding on your part.

Consider the weight of the evidence, the whole of your testimony, the lifestyle you were living at the time. This weighs heavily in favor of a scenario of misunderstanding on your part. The letter you refer to, you threw away 20 years ago, we have no idea what it said, other than your 20 year old memory.

I take no pleasure and mean no harm in saying this. We have no "facts" to base ANY decision on. I give you the benefit of the doubt. Beyond that, I will not, cannot, join you in your allegations that defame and slander the church (in other words "condem").

[M. T. Cross]

"Allegations? No sir this is fact."

Uh,,, no, it's not a "fact", it's an allegation. There is not ONE person on this thread that knows whether it is a fact or not, some believe your allegations, as for myself, it remains unclear. Maybe it is, but it is more likely a misunderstanding on your part.

Consider the weight of the evidence, the whole of your testimony, the lifestyle you were living at the time. This weighs heavily in favor of a scenario of misunderstanding on your part. The letter you refer to, you threw away 20 years ago, we have no idea what it said, other than your 20 year old memory.

I take no pleasure and mean no harm in saying this. We have no "facts" to base ANY decision on. I give you the benefit of the doubt. Beyond that, I will not, cannot, join you in your allegations that defame and slander the church (in other words "condem").

**EC goes to deal with the bump on his head from repeatedly banging it against a brick wall**

Not ONE person. Well I know and I am one person.

Defaming and slandering? That would only be the case if I was outright lying. So if you are saying that I am doing those two things, you are not giving to much benefit of the doubt. Just sayin

The lifestyle I led at the time. Thats like saying a girl dressed in a short skirt is asking to get raped. A wrong commited against someone is a wrong no matter what.

But like I said - it is really clear there is no discussing this with you. If I still had the letter you would find a way to refute it, cause it does not fit with how you want to see things.

[Overaged]

I take no pleasure and mean no harm in saying this. We have no "facts" to base ANY decision on. I give you the benefit of the doubt. Beyond that, I will not, cannot, join you in your allegations that defame and slander the church (in other words "condem").

That's not what he or I have been doing. havn't even come close. Funny how people who accuse like you are usually have the problem themselves. Your accusations are ridiculous, and not based on ANY fact.

[CoAspen]

For some to believe the truth that others have communicated would mean they, themself, must give up their own prejudice against the others truth. Tis is easier to call them a lier, ie, they misunderstood!!

[ClubV12]

The question is not black or white, a one or a zero, is he lieing or not? The question is, based on the evidence, can we arrive at a definite conclusion one way or the other? We cannot. You can't "convict" the "church" on an unsubstantiated claim.

I would like to see ONE CASE, just ONE, where someone, anyone, can actually present some evidence that ANYONE has EVER been disfellowshiped for not paying tithe while they were unemployed. The FACTS are, you cannot. What then are we left with? Sincere testimony, rumors, gossip and a need to be in unity so deeply sought after that reason and basic principles of justice are abandoned.

This country was founded as a Republic, which is the RULE OF LAW, not mob rule, not emotional rule, but LAW. You simply can't go around throwing out allegations against a person or group without being able to back it up with evidence. It's not an issue of truth or not, it's an issue of can you prove it or not!

Lacking any basic evidence, I have no choice but to remain skeptical. Thats my opinion, if your offended by it,,,,, tough! I don't like your opinion either, but I allow it, even embrace it. I expect the same courtesy.

[M. T. Cross]

This is the World Wide Web, what country are you refering too? That and I am Canadian, we were founded on a different basis

Of course I am offended - you are calling my character and ability to tell the truth into question dude.

This is not a court of law. Its a message board. Sorry that 22 years ago I did not forsee the internet and some dude that could not accept that I just might be telling the truth.

[Overaged]

The question is not black or white, a one or a zero, is he lieing or not? The question is, based on the evidence, can we arrive at a definite conclusion one way or the other? We cannot. You can't "convict" the "church" on an unsubstantiated claim.

Lacking any basic evidence, I have no choice but to remain skeptical. Thats my opinion, if your offended by it,,,,, tough! I don't like your opinion either, but I allow it, even embrace it. I expect the same courtesy.

You sure have a lot of courage cowering behind your keyboard there buddy. There is a fundamental PROBLEM with what you have been presenting as here. Absolutely no one in this topic is trying to, or has tried to "convict the Church." I am not sure why you can't accept that...

If somehow, some way, we have hit a raw nerve with you; we apologize. We are not interested in a fight, so we will leave you to your devices here. You can have all the "courtesy" you demand now.

[ClubV12]

Some of us weigh the evidence, especially when serious questions of character and ability are leveled against a group or person, in this case the Seventh-day Adventist church and the people who are members of that group.

This could be about ANY group and any allegation, my position would not change, where is the evidence? It's a reasonable question. I'm sorry if it offends you, but I will not be forced by intimidation to violate my own conscience on the principal of standing up for those who are unable to speak for themselves.

If someone was accusing your friend or family of some serious wrong doing, wouldn't YOU be asking for the evidence? Wouldn't YOU be defending their right to a fair hearing (internet or otherwise) before agreeing to it? I would hope so,,, rather than rushing to judgment one way or the other.

Overaged says,

"You sure have a lot of courage cowering behind your keyboard there buddy."

Overaged, please quit calling me names and stick to the topic.

[M. T. Cross]

Quote:

Too many unstable words are spoken by him who ne'er holds his peace; the hasty tongue sings its own mishap if it be not bridled in.

Peace Club, sorry I brought it up. Think its best dropped before it gets any uglier.