Does prayer really work?

[ClubV12]

Consider this from Sister White, warning, strong counsel ahead, fasten your seat belt:

"This man had gone so far he seemed to be left of God. He would go into the woods and spend days and nights in fasting and prayer that he might overcome this great sin, and then would return to his old habits. God did not hear his prayers. He asked God to do for him what had been in his power to do for himself. He had vowed to God, time and again, and had as often broken his vows, and given himself up to his own corrupt lust, until God had left him to work his own ruin. He has since died. He was a self-murderer. The purity of heaven will never be marred with his society. Those who destroy themselves by their own acts will never have eternal life."

An Appeal to Mothers. 28

I take this as a stern warning to MYSELF!

It works when we finish praying, get off our knee's and take action, determined effort to do something about what ever problem we have the Lord has convicted us of.

[Liz]

That's sad, I feel bad for that man. I hope she was wrong when she said that the purity of Heaven will never be marred by his society.

[Gail]

Went through one of these recently... In my case all I have to do (because the time hasn't yet passed, I could still choose what I shouldn't), is just DO IT- do the right thing. The struggle is in my heart to serve it and not forego to the Lord's glory.

It's amazing how strong that impulse is! But I can see what you are getting at, because this particular thing is for me a matter of choice.

[Gibs]

The flesh is weak but the Spirit, Christ in you is strong enough to overcome all our fralities as he did. EGW speaks,

" We may lay hold of the merits of the blood of Christ by faith, and through His grace and power we may have strength to overcome our errors, our sins, our imperfections of character, and come off victorious, having washed our robes in the blood of the Lamb". {3T 183.1}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bravus]

From the OP: "God did not hear his prayers. He asked God to do for him what had been in his power to do for himself."

That, my friends, is straight up heresy. Christians know that we do not have the power to do right for ourselves, we must rely on God's power.

Ellen White sometimes wrote things that are not Christian, it's as simple as that.

[Gail]

Where's Woody when you need him?

On the one hand you have people that struggle like that, then you hear tell of some that get victory over this or that terrible temptation and degradation.

What makes the difference?

[phkrause]

I don't see that as being heresy at all. If I'm a smoker that smokes 2 packs a day and I ask God to help me not to get lung cancer, and yet I don't quit, do you think that God should just go against the natural course that happens? And allow people to believe that its OK to smoke? That's how I see this statement! It could be many other things, I'm just picking smoking. It could've been one of many other things, drugs, drinking, etc. I personally can't expect to pray for God to heal me of something and than be unwilling to do my part.

[Bravus]

The man is spending days and nights in fasting and prayer to be delivered. He is asking God for the power to be free, but God says 'No, do it yourself!'

That's not God, that's Ellen's distorted view.

But even leaving that aside: say it's true. Say that's how God really is.

Then what's the point of praying at all? You can fast and pray, or you can not pray, and the outcome is exactly the same - you have to overcome sin in your own strength!

The title of the thread is 'does prayer really work?', and the answer clearly portrayed in the quote is 'No'.

[ClubV12]

PHK, yup, it could be anything, pick a strong personal struggle, any struggle. I always look for the PRINCIPLE that Sister White's counsel points to, not the particular person or particular problem. When we do that we miss the point.

Really brings out the duty we have to knuckle down and get serious about working out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Got a TV problem? A reading fiction problem? For some folks those issues might be just as difficult to get a handle on as a smoking problem. It's a very personal thing.

Bravus the thing is, some folks believe Ellen White was indeed an inspired prophet of the Lord. For those who don't believe or question and wonder.... well, I got nothing for ya man, I don't know what to say about that. How do you explain faith to a non-believer?

Really brings out the duty we have to knuckle down and get serious about working out our own salvation with fear and trembling.

[M. T. Cross]

I think prayer works. I don't even think it matters who you pray to for it to work. Its about belief.

If you believe strong enough that your prayer will be answered then you will in effect manifest those answers for yourself.

[fccool]

I don't think that's the right question to ask. Prayer is a practice of faith. I don't think it was meant to serve the purpose of begging for things one does not have. Prayer and meditation are linked, and answers to payer in many ways come from that perspective of meditation.

No matter how much one prays for his obesity to dissipate, it will not if person continually overeats or does not change his lifestyle. Prayer and meditation would lead person into discipline and realization. You may say it comes from God, and that "God fixes you" and "answers your prayer", but ultimately you will be the agent of that change, whether you like to admit it or not.

In that sense, Ellen White is correct. I think that there's a desire to do something, and there's want. I sort of make up definitions as I go, but there's no distinction in our culture from merely wishing something, and desire that moves one to complete that wish. It's both dubbed as "want, or desire". If I say I want to buy a car, it's not really semantically different from "I desire to buy a car", or "I wish to buy a car". The same with "I want to change something in my life". There's a wish, and there's a want.

If prayer is merely "wishful thinking directed towards God", what good is it? How different is it from one wishing to become a star athlete, or exceptional student? That's why I think it's important to emphasize prayer as exercise of WILL. In Christian terms, that would be aligning your will to the will of perfection, which is God. In that sense, it becomes a motivation to move, rather than wishful thinking.

[phkrause]

I disagree, my father who smoked most of his life, until he met God. He prayed for deliverance from smoking and that prayer was answered. He quit cold turkey. For many years after he first came to be an SDA he continued to smoke on the sly, but really didn't give himself to God. And that prayer was not answered at that time. That prayer was answered when he quit. I have no problem understanding that EGW quote and what she is getting at. No its right on.

[ClubV12]

Emptycross, the "power of positive thinking" is a counterfit of prayer. As is belief in things like "karma" and many other "mystic" beliefs.

Prayer is based on solid principles of how God interacts with man. By allowing us to have a part in the process we have to exercise faith. If He were to simply work a miracle on our behalf, no faith would be required!

Some of these solid principles of prayer and faith are seen in the quote I posted that opened this thread. The counterfit of faith is "presumption". We "presume" God hears and answers our prayers while at the same time we are or have or plan to reject the light we have already been given! If your not living up to what you KNOW is right and still asking the Lord for "favors", you need to review the principles of how prayer works.

[fccool]

Quote:

I disagree, my father who smoked most of his life, until he met God. He prayed for deliverance from smoking and that prayer was answered. He quit cold turkey. For many years after he first came to be an SDA he continued to smoke on the sly, but really didn't give himself to God. And that prayer was not answered at that time. When he did, he quit and that prayer was answered.

[Pockey]

"he that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination." Proverbs 28:9

"The Lord does not regard the request of those who cherish iniquity in the heart." EGW PP 584

[Gerr]

I think prayer works. I don't even think it matters who you pray to for it to work. Its about belief.

Huh?

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

I think prayer works. I don't even think it matters who you pray to for it to work. Its about belief.

Huh?

Not sure what it is you are saying "Huh?" too. If you could expand on that a little I would be happy to answer.

[mrsducky]

Just a thought . . . what if the man's mindset is to pray and expect a magical response from God and not really have any desire to stop whatever he was praying about. . .

[Bravus]

I think that's a fair enough comment, but it still leaves the problem: the claim is that God will offer us extra power to make right choices when we ask. But the original quote, and the tenor of many posts in this thread, is that this is not the case: we must make right choices in our own strength. If so, what is the point of the prayer? If we can already do it in our own strength, and have to, what is God's role?

[M. T. Cross]

I think that's a fair enough comment, but it still leaves the problem: the claim is that God will offer us extra power to make right choices when we ask. But the original quote, and the tenor of many posts in this thread, is that this is not the case: we must make right choices in our own strength. If so, what is the point of the prayer? If we can already do it in our own strength, and have to, what is God's role?

Gods role?

My take - and I make the disclaimer again that my view is not of an SDA - is that when you pray what you recieve in terms of a gift from the Divine is the strength to make those right choices, to do what you need to do to get the result you desire. How well that turns out for you is based on the level of your desire, the level of your need and the purity of your intent.

[John317]

From the OP: "God did not hear his prayers. He asked God to do for him what had been in his power to do for himself."

That, my friends, is straight up heresy. Christians know that we do not have the power to do right for ourselves, we must rely on God's power.

Ellen White sometimes wrote things that are not Christian, it's as simple as that.

Ellen White is correct, and it is exactly what the Bible also teaches.

Consider the testimony of Scripture:

Quote:

Proverbs 28:9

If one turns away his ear from hearing the law,

even his prayer is an abomination.

Psalm 66:18

If I had cherished iniquity in my heart,

the Lord would not have listened.

Isaiah 59:1-2

Behold, the Lord's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save,

or his ear dull, that it cannot hear;

[2] but your iniquities have made a separation

between you and your God,

and your sins have hidden his face from you

so that he does not hear.

Mark 11:24

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

James 4:3

You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

James 1:6-7

But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. [7] For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord."

1 Peter 3:7-- Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

1 John 5:14-15

And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that if we ask anything according to his will he hears us. [15] And if we know that he hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests that we have asked of him.

[John317]

... the claim is that God will offer us extra power to make right choices when we ask.

The problem with the man in the original quote was that he didn't really mean what he was saying to God in his prayer.

He did not submit his entire life over to God. He was actually planning on sinning again when he prayed that God would help him to overcome his sin.

He was keeping something in reserve.

I know about this because I did the same thing for most of my life. I prayed that God would help me overcome my homosexual practices but at the same time I wasn't willing to give him that part of my life. I would actually be planning on going to visit someone while I was praying that God would help me overcome sex sins. I loved that part of my life and wasn't willing to surrender it to God.

So I didn't gain the victory over it until I decided Jesus could have that part of my life. Jesus won't take our sins from us as long we're determined to keep doing them.

We have to submit our will to Him, keeping nothing back.

Originally Posted By: Bravus

But the original quote, and the tenor of many posts in this thread, is that this is not the case: we must make right choices in our own strength. If so, what is the point of the prayer? If we can already do it in our own strength, and have to, what is God's role?

The Holy Spirit's role is to convict us of our sins and point us to Jesus Christ, the only One who can cleanse us. The Spirit gives us a desire for what's right, but we have to decide to allow the Holy Spirit to work in our life. We must ask Him every day to come into our life and make us whole. Repentence and confession are our part.

1 John 1:9

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

But what happens if I resist the Holy Spirit by refusing to accept the testimony of Scripture and repent & confess my sins?

There are conditions to answered prayer:

Psalm 66:18

If I had cherished iniquity in my heart,

the Lord would not have listened.

Proverbs 28:9

If one turns away his ear from hearing the law,

even his prayer is an abomination.

Mark 11:25

And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses."

Matthew 5:44

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

James 1:6-7

But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. [7] For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;

[Tom Wetmore]

But what if our prayer is for the will-power to stop falling off the wagon?

The maddening part of this is that it tends to place all the blame on us for the lack of a positive answer to prayer. God doesn't help us because we are weak?!?! It tends to increase the level of guilt. I lack will-power to overcome. I pray for victory. I prayer for strength to buck up and do the right thing. I pray to strengthen my resolve to do the right thing. God's answer is, "I'm not helping you because you didn't do enough yourself"?!?!

And what if we do end up overcoming with that idea clearly in our mind? We suddenly realize we can do it in our own power. We really don't need God as much as we thought. It's more about us and less about God. Pride...

Transfer that to the prayer for help for someone else. The positive outcome to our prayer somehow depends on us doing our part. Pray hard enough. Pray long enough. Have enough faith. Cleanse our own soul because the prayer of a wicked man isn't heard by God. What is the perception then if that prayer is not answered? That I didn't do my part? That I didn't have enough faith? That the person I am praying for was not healed because my prayer was some how defective? That I had not prayed long enough and hard enough? That I was harboring some secret sin that caused God to stick his fingers in his ears and ignore my prayer?!?!

I felt guilt for years that my dear mother-in-law was not healed and died. I worried that I was the fly in the prayer ointment when she was anointed. If I had been a better person at the time praying more fervently maybe she would have lived.

That is a reality, repeated countless times in the face of this heresy.

[John317]

... God doesn't help us because we are weak?!?! It tends to increase the level of guilt. I lack will-power to overcome. I pray for victory. I prayer for strength to buck up and do the right thing. I pray to strengthen my resolve to do the right thing. God's answer is, "I'm not helping you because you didn't do enough yourself"?!?!

It isn't true that God won't help us because we are weak. Jesus loves to help weak people who are conscious of their weakness.

Our human weakness is not the issue. The issue is being honest with God and with ourselves.

Are we cherishing sin?

Are we trying to excuse our sins?

Are we playing games with God?

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

... God doesn't help us because we are weak?!?! It tends to increase the level of guilt. I lack will-power to overcome. I pray for victory. I prayer for strength to buck up and do the right thing. I pray to strengthen my resolve to do the right thing. God's answer is, "I'm not helping you because you didn't do enough yourself"?!?!

It isn't true that God won't help us because we are weak. Jesus loves to help weak people who are conscious of their weakness.

Our human weakness is not the issue. The issue is being honest with God and with ourselves.

Are we cherishing sin?

Are we trying to excuse our sins?

Are we playing games with God?

Human weakness is absolutely the issue!!! That is the very point!

That is the problem with that quote. It presumes humans are not weak. Just man up and do what you are supposed to do. Sure there are people with great strength and resolve. But how does that "man up" mentality play for those who lack strength and resolve, the weak?

The very problem with which, and for which we seek help is human weakness. It is a human weakness to play games with God. It is a human weakness to cherish sin. It is a human weakness to make all manner of excuses for our sin. (Adam and Eve started that downward death spiral of excuses...)

So now you add another layer of guilt and shame that the problem is that the person is not being honest with God and themselves?!?! Someone not being honest with themselves is very likely to not have a firm grasp of that fact. Self-deception is the most intractable of deceptions. It is a pervasive human weakness. And that person somehow is supposed to pull himself up by his bootstraps and get honest with himself and God before God will help him?

Yes, you are quite right that God/Jesus loves to help the weak and those who recognize they are helpless. But to realize even that requires God's help.

The problem is that the EGW quote is not saying that. In fact it seems to say quite the opposite.