Does prayer really work?

[Gail]

I really need to do a study on prayer...

Prayer was so vital to Christ's life on earth. That intrigues me.

[ClubV12]

It is possibly one of the most "disturbing" quotes I have ever come across. I am reminded of the statement in Steps to Christ that all our promises are like "ropes of sand".

How can we reconcile there two seemingly contradictions of principle?

Heres one view:

The man in question was not immediately abandoned of God, on that we can rest assured. So how long was it before he was left to "worship his idols"? Possibly a lifetime, but I won't put any kind of number on it, perhaps it didn't take long at all! How long does it take to grieve the Holy Spirit to the point where we have committed the unpardonable sin? How long did Paul suggest it takes to "sear your conscience" to the point where the truth no longer call's forth a feeling of conviction?

If we are constantly committing a known sin, over and over, thinking about it even during church, scheming on it even while we are praying, doing it when ever we get the chance, how far do our prayers go? Apparently no higher than the ceiling! I think there is a MAJOR difference between those who are heart felt sorry for sin, and those who are tired of living with the "guilt" of that sin. Perhaps this man, in his heart, was really praying for God to remove the GUILT, not the SIN!

Sister White speaks of people who end up in mental hospitals because of intense feelings of guilt. You can't live like that forever, something has to give. Sometimes a criminal is relieved he is caught and can't wait to confess his crimes and get that load of guilt off his shoulders. He may NOT actually BE sorry for the crime, just the guilt it brings.

When folks talk about using Sister White as a "club" or "hammer" that MAY or MAY NOT be the case. Her straight testimony often convicts of sin, some are tired of hearing it, their conscience has been seared. They may well be headed down the path to grieving the Holy Spirit! Whether guilt drives you crazy, literally, or you go into massive denial (of your faith) the end results are the same, death. In this life and the life to come. The ONLY solution to guilt is a true heart felt connection with God. Not that false peace the devil is so good at providing for many. One must diligently search the heart with a humble spirit to know of which Spirit that peace is coming from.

[teresaq]

The man is spending days and nights in fasting and prayer to be delivered. He is asking God for the power to be free, but God says 'No, do it yourself!'

That's not God, that's Ellen's distorted view.

But even leaving that aside: say it's true. Say that's how God really is.

Then what's the point of praying at all? You can fast and pray, or you can not pray, and the outcome is exactly the same - you have to overcome sin in your own strength!

The title of the thread is 'does prayer really work?', and the answer clearly portrayed in the quote is 'No'.

I would like to throw my 2 cents in if I may.

Both the bible and Ellen White have said things that have made me feel hopeless to the point of suicide. If it weren't for the handful who both knew God and were honest with themselves and others I don't know what would have happened to me given that I had no anchor at home.

I believe I know what she is talking about here. If I am right I also have done the very same as that gentleman. I have prayed hard for victory over something in my life to no avail. Later I realized it was because I was double-minded. I wanted the victory because I was "supposed to" not because I wanted it in my heart. So when "victory" came I pushed it aside and continued what I was doing wondering why the Lord was not answering my prayer since that was what He wanted.

When I truly want victory, nothing holding back, I do receive it.

I also know of others who agonize and pray for something then go on their merry way with no regard for God or their fellowman. Agonizing in prayer is not an automatic sign of wanting to do God's will.

I would also like to address his fitness for heaven. As I understand it we either develop the true character of God or the character of Satan. I believe that applies to every human on earth whether we be self-proclaimed Christian or otherwise. I believe both the bible and SoP to be quite clear in that regard. We may find the ratio of self-proclaimed christians compared to non, in heaven, to be so small as to not be worthy of notice.

Anyway, given the context of that statement I believe the man to have been extremely self-centered and hurtful to others either by neglect or intent. I can't see God locking anyone out of heaven who is truly seeking Him yet has not gotten the victory over some particular fault, defect or sin.

Thank God we can trust that He knows our hearts. And that if we do end up locked out its because we really would not have been happy there. (While I have a different view of God now, I can say that because I sure didn't want to go to heaven to be with a God Who had a big stick waiting to catch someone doing wrong. Being eternally dead was ok with me. )

[Fausto]

Yep, this is an extremely difficult one, I too agonized just reading this statement before.

All I can say is one needs to die daily as recommended by Paul and perhaps hold on to the promise of 1 Corinthians 10:13.

Quote:

No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Needless to say the use of will power is required but not by itself this is where God comes in to rescue us, did Moses not put his staff into the red sea first before it opened up!

Reminds me of that hymn "Trust and Obey"!

I admit readily IT IS DIFFICULT!

[Gail]

I believe I know what she is talking about here. If I am right I also have done the very same as that gentleman. I have prayed hard for victory over something in my life to no avail. Later I realized it was because I was double-minded. I wanted the victory because I was "supposed to" not because I wanted it in my heart. So when "victory" came I pushed it aside and continued what I was doing wondering why the Lord was not answering my prayer since that was what He wanted.

When I truly want victory, nothing holding back, I do receive it.

I also know of others who agonize and pray for something then go on their merry way with no regard for God or their fellowman. Agonizing in prayer is not an automatic sign of wanting to do God's will.

Good point! The Bible says to "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus." Sometimes we are just praying either selfishly or because of our lack of knowledge.

It's a good thing that we do have a prayer mediator in the Holy Spirit.

Would like to hear more from those who have experienced victory.

[phkrause]

Excellent points teresaq. This is what I was trying to post above about my Father. When he finally allowed God to give him that victory of smoking he received it. I probably or obviously didn't say this as well as you. Also I think a lot of her statements don't nessesarily(sp) apply to each person the same way or that every statement applies to everyone.

[teresaq]

Yes, it amazes me how well something turns out when I try to let God control it completely. It was really important to me for it to come out right so I had to pray overnight about it.

Too bad I go in and out of that prayerful state.

Perhaps this man, in his heart, was really praying for God to remove the GUILT, not the SIN!

I think you have a point on this ONE point. :)

[Woody]

Oh boy. The topic of prayer. I will need to hold my tongue. I definatly will hold my tongue on the quote from Ellen White.

Prayer - talking to God. Does talking to God help? Yes. I find that when I am talking to God - I am usually not sinning.

Is there some kind of special power that is given to me from talking to God that will allow me to stop talking to God and be a good moral person? No I don't think so. The power of prayer is in prayer. Stop doing it and you are a sinner.

[Gail]

Quote:

Prayer - talking to God. Does talking to God help? Yes. I find that when I am talking to God - I am usually not sinning.

Praise God! Me, too... AND I gain a peace that comes no other way.

[Guest]

the claim is that God will offer us extra power to make right choices when we ask.

Where was that claim ever made? The choosing is the ONE thing that is all yours. God will not take away our power of choice, even if we ask him to. Choosing to do right is our only work. We will need God's help following through on those choices, (and He gives it) but the choice itself is ours to make, and ours alone. Nobody else can choose for you.

When I look around I see people who have put aside their faith and fallen by the wayside. When you get into the details of their life, it is easy to see in many cases, that their whole life has been marked by wrong choices. One wrong choice after another, and now they want to blame God.

But you cannot lay your wrong choices at the feet of God, because they are not his choices. Your choice belongs to you Bravus, and only you. Otherwise it would not be a choice.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

You also choose what you will believe or not believe.

[Woody]

RIchard - I think that Bravus was referring to when we have surrendered our will and prayed to God to have HIM direct us in the right way. If we have done that and headed in the wrong way -whose fault is it? All we can do is to pray to God for power. For on our own power - we will only head in the wrong direction. Man's way is the way of destruction. We have no power of ourselves that is any good. ALL good comes from God.

[Guest]

Ellen White sometimes wrote things that are not Christian, it's as simple as that.

In your mind I'm sure it is.

[ClubV12]

RLH,,, as serious as that is, actually, I still had to chuckle. :)

[phkrause]

Where was that claim ever made? The choosing is the ONE thing that is all yours. God will not take away our power of choice, even if we ask him to. Choosing to do right is our only work. We will need God's help following through on those choices, (and He gives it) but the choice itself is ours to make, and ours alone. Nobody else can choose for you.

When I look around I see people who have put aside their faith and fallen by the wayside. When you get into the details of their life, it is easy to see in many cases, that their whole life has been marked by wrong choices. One wrong choice after another, and now they want to blame God.

But you cannot lay your wrong choices at the feet of God, because they are not his choices. Your choice belongs to you Bravus, and only you. Otherwise it would not be a choice.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

You also choose what you will believe or not believe.

Richard, I could not have said that any better myself. How true that is. It is amazing that at this time in our lives (adulthood, and I'm guessing that all of us are) we still want to blame God for our choices.

[kathwi2]

The man spent time fasting and praying and asking God to help him not sin. His prayer was not answered?

Something is wrong with this picture. I too did the same. I too kept sinning. God eventually took it from me. Now, I have another one that I didn't know about. I'm doing the same thing for this one. the Bible says: God cleanses you from all sin. He knows how to present you faultless, it also says He will wash you from it. That you have an advocate with the Father. Paul said: who can deliver us from this body of death; thank God for Jesus Christ.

Someone is lying on EGW.

[kathwi2]

Can a Leopard change his own spots?

[phkrause]

Someone is lying on EGW.

What does this mean?

[M. T. Cross]

Can a Leopard change his own spots?

I have always been bothered by that theory.

It tells me that no-one can change, no-one can be better than they were at a time of their life. That is simply incorrect.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: kathwi2

Can a Leopard change his own spots?

I have always been bothered by that theory.

It tells me that no-one can change, no-one can be better than they were at a time of their life. That is simply incorrect.

Personally I don't believe that that statement is a theory. A person cannot change without the help of God. The Bible states with "God nothing is impossible." So yes in that respect I do agree EC. Because I have changed, and so have many, many with the help of God.

[olger]

Yes. It changes me.

[M. T. Cross]

Yet many people that do not follow God change as well. For the better.

[Raphael]

Its not always about not sinning or remaining sinless, there are horrid tests of stamina, of not fainting or giving up upon striving amidst sin, against it by running to Him, again and again. When He brought everything into existence, He also brought the art of process with it as well. For example, the story of our six thousand process of the plan of salvation.

In our fast age of fast food, fast cars, fast air travel, fast telecommunications to even fast growth (toddlers are far brighter then ages past)... anything slow becomes unacceptable.

There are reasons for very delayed answers from the most basic of "you're doing time" (role of Satan's punchbag & surviving intact(with God's help)) and you're being kept in a safe zone from further worse scenarios.

As Satan's punchbag, we are to show-live and recorded for eternity that Satan's accusations are wrong and baseless. We are to become eternal living proofs against the issues of sin, for that, we are given up to the enemy to be tried (by quota, which one can learn from God)... Job's story is not an occasional incident, it is the story for all Christians with further untold accounts.

The key is to not give up. Because that is what the test is all about. Problem is if the individual was never endowed with the "nose to the grind-diligence" skill that some of us have. If that is the case then its a difficult one... But God is fair, where in general those who are safely unable to part with the world are granted material or worldly happiness, while those wielding potential abilities to escape are granted the light yoke, which later will continually need all your strength to maintain (via asking help from God (again & again)).

Usually when the quota is is fulfilled then by a convincingly natural course of events, you will discover ways to remedy situations where you were totally helpless about. Just like that... with no sweat... Another key is to ask & consult God about your every detailed status.. something that would provide answers like I am writing and more...

So don't envy those doing well in the world, coz they may very well be just enjoying those death-row convict's last dinners prior to electric chair's hell executions.

Can you see the Beatitudes in a different light now?

[Guest]

Yet many people that do not follow God change as well. For the better.

I guess that depends on how you define better. Is the man who thinks he "understands himself and the world around him", skipping happily down the road to hell, really better off?

I don't think so. He's only in for a bigger shock when he gets there, than the guy who trudged a miserable road to hell.

Because man "A" thinks he's got it all together. And from all outward appearances, he does.

[teresaq]

Yet many people that do not follow God change as well. For the better.

I would say, that do not consciously follow God. If EGW knows anything, she says the heathen, the ones with bones stuck through their noses, lips, and ears, and all manner of "else, are responding to the Holy Spirit when they feel with their hearts...

But we have a more reliable word in the scriptures,

Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

According to Romans we churchgoers and/or bible-thumpers aren't necessarily "changing for the better", while non-churchgoers, who are changing for the better, will judge us.

[M. T. Cross]

Teresad, I for one won't be judging anyone, as I believe we all have our own road to follow, what gets me to the destination might not work for you and vice versa. I think what is important is that we all arrive at the end of that road with a pure heart.

RLH - I respectfully disagree. I believe that the Creator put in each of the ability to rely on ourselves to do what is right. To be accountable for our actions and deeds. If we are accountable and don't blame the "devil" for our sins, we then move to self honesty. When we learn to be honest with ourselves we can look at our past actions and deeds and recognize the wrongs and be sure to not repeat them.