Moderators lazarus Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 But capitalism allows for personal freedom, freedom of expression, religious freedom, etc., whereas communism does not. The reason communism fails is that it does not understand human nature is fallen. By contrast, capitalism has no illusions about human nature. Really? Capitalism has had a checkered past. Capitalist systems have denied personal freedom, denied freedom expression, denied religious freedom. Capitalism is not a synonym for democracy. Europeans fled persecution in capitalist Europe only to persecute in the capitalist new world. Do you think capitalism will not fall? Its struggling at the moment I think. Capitalism exploits human nature and the planet but has delusions about it's ability to sustain itself. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 Their beef should be with Washington.Wall Street operates with the laws passed by Congress/Admin The point is that they don't operate by those laws. It called corruption and fraud. Corporate capitalism has essentially paid off our leaders so they laws they pass or do not pass are designed to benefit their corporate masters directly. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 The point is that they don't operate by those laws. It called corruption and fraud. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 People are regularly prosecuted for welfare fraud. Very few on wall street are prosecuted. I wonder why? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Really? Capitalism has had a checkered past. Capitalist systems have denied personal freedom, denied freedom expression, denied religious freedom. Capitalism is not a synonym for democracy. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 Freedom and democracy leads to capitalism.Without freedom you cannot have capitalism I think history would disagree with that. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie Freedom and democracy leads to capitalism.Without freedom you cannot have capitalism I think history would disagree with that. If freedom does not give you freedom in all things legal you are not really free. Freedom does mean the good with the bad and many take the bad. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 If you look at history there were countries that practiced capitalism without the freedoms of which you speak. Capitalism can flourish without freedom. China is a current example. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 I don't know what others believe,but for myself I believe God had a guiding hand in the founding of this country and the principals it was founded on.Some seem to take that to mean it would be populated with a perfect people. The principals including our form of capitalism was many generations ahead of it's time.Not always in practice but in principal.I firmly believe God guided in that.Otherwise we would not have had the religious freedom we have enjoyed or the spread of the gospel So many want more and more government control as a way to fix problems people to a large part create for themselves.Once my health care is placed in the hands of government and the means or amount I may make to provide for my family is controlled,capitalism falls,so will this country.Inevitable,but not a concept I want to endorse. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 If you look at history there were countries that practiced capitalism without the freedoms of which you speak. Capitalism can flourish without freedom. China is a current example. If time were to stand long enough,capitalism without freedom will not last. You place financial freedom in the hands of a population they will eventually revolt at not having personal freedoms. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 People are regularly prosecuted for welfare fraud. Very few on wall street are prosecuted. I wonder why? Not that many are prosecuted for welfare fraud compared to the numbers on welfare.A lot more welfare recipients than Wall Street. Those on welfare that can work and help provide for themselves and don't cannot be prosecuted. Greed and corruption is the same no matter what economic status. Remember the lazy and slohtful servant in the parable of the talents. Sounds like out current welfare. He was called lazy and wicked,while the one that had more and did more was called" "Thou good and faithful servant" You still haven't explained what system you would prefer to replace capitalism Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 Capitalism did very well in the US for years without personal freedom. It has done very well in China. Women, minorites and lower "classes" were denied freedoms across the world and capitalism flourished. I would suggest that capitalism does best when certain freedoms are denied. Check out Singapore. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 Capitalism did very well in the US for years without personal freedom. It has done very well in China. Women, minorites and lower "classes" were denied freedoms across the world and capitalism flourished. I would suggest that capitalism does best when certain freedoms are denied. Check out Singapore. You can live in a country with certain freedoms denied if you care to.I don't. The US did not maintain the loss of freedom for women/minorities and middle class.You seem to think that either the change should have been instant,without fault or maybe wanting to go back to when freedoms were denied to some. We have gone to slowly at times but we have gone beyond that. I suppose it makes some feel better about themselves to claim corrupt capitalism is at the root of all their woes,but for me capitalism it is still the way I choose to live as long as possible.Corrupt capitalism has not stopped me from trying and at times achieving what I set out to do. When I failed to achieve my goal it was my failure,not corrupt capitalism. My husband and I were able to provide our sons with a modest but decent life,christian education,instill the values of hard work and personal responsiblity,enabling us to lend a hand to others in need.I will take it instead of whining about the sins of others Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 I'm not sure why you feel the need to argue against points that have not be made. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 I'm not sure why you feel the need to argue against points that have not be made. Such as? You don't seem to approve of US capitalism? What is your preferred method? You don't think freedom and capitalism should necessarily go together. How do you restrict my right to earn as much as my talents and energy allows and say I am free? How do you allow or accept my right and at the same time restrict those that make to much in your opinion? Do you decide they have done so illegally? Should there be a restriction on private companies as to the bonuses they pay? If I operate a business out of my home and engage in capitalism, should I be forced to join a union? Seems very likley in MN soon.Inch by inch freedoms are being lost and you cannot seperate them from capitalism. A propsperous people have a tendency to want their independence and freedoms. Without trampling on my freedom to the "fruit of my labor" how do you take from me and give to those that do not do all they can to help themselves? How do you expect universal health care? That generally restricts some medical care "for the good of all" It is already agreed by all that rationing is on the horizon. Where did my freedom go to have the medical procedures we should be able to expect to purchase? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 21, 2011 Share Posted November 21, 2011 Amen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted November 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted November 21, 2011 You don't seem to approve of US capitalism? What is your preferred method? My points were not about American Capitalism per se. I'm talking capitalism as an ideology. I didn't say they should not go together. I'm saying that they do not necessarily go together. you've introduced a whole bunch of other topics, notions and ideas without dealing with my basic point about freedom and capitalism. One can clearly exist without the other. Quote: A propsperous people have a tendency to want their independence and freedoms. So do poor people. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 21, 2011 Author Share Posted November 21, 2011 My points were not about American Capitalism per se. I'm talking capitalism as an ideology. I didn't say they should not go together. I'm saying that they do not necessarily go together. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Originally Posted By: Robert The principles of Capitalism are opposed to the foundation of God's government build on agape love. Communism doesn't work because mankind is selfish by nature. The first two who engaged in capitalism were told "Well done thou good and faithful servant". You have perverted the scriptures.....If Capitalism goes to heaven, heaven will become hell. Our world systems are based in self-seeking. Agape is not self-seeking. Understand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 What system would you prefer? A glimpse of heaven was seen in the early church. Note the agape: Acts 4:32 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God's grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned land or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35 and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone who had need. Notice everyone had everything in common! Sounds like Communism, doesn't it? The difference is that this came naturally and not at the point of a gun. This was agape manifested in the early church. People didn't compete...they weren't self-centered...they lived for each other. They fulfilled the statement, "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth." [DA 439] When the church loves like Christ loves then you will see persecution. Until then we are contaminated by the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Going from poor to at least middle class is not dependent on taking from others. What you need, Bonnie, is for someone to move to your town and compete with you using illegals. That way they could undercut your maid service. They would run your business into the ground, but that's okay Capitalism is king, right? Again, it works well for the who can manipulate it, but for the rest of us it's a slow ride to the bottom. It's coming..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 What you need, Bonnie, is for someone to move to your town and compete with you using illegals. That way they could undercut your maid service. They would run your business into the ground, but that's okay Capitalism is king, right? Again, it works well for the who can manipulate it, but for the rest of us it's a slow ride to the bottom. It's coming..... Have a hot flash for you. Didn't take illegals to undercut me. Lost some that way.Some that I had lost asked me to come back after trying the cheaper route.And no,they did not run my business into the ground.If I could not hold my own and be succeesful I would have deserved to have it run into the ground. As in anything you do,there are those that will do it cheaper but not necessarily better. Some will settle for cheaper and that was their choice.It was not manipulation,it was the best service I could offer for the money I required to do the job.Nor did I offer the service cheap. Obviously life as we have known it will come to an end,but until that time comes in whatever I choose to do it will be the best I can.Not to manipulate anyone. Nor will it be with a constant whine of greed/corruption/fraud. I do not consider doing the best I can a slow ride to the bottom.I will let those that spend their lives blaming others for every obstacle in their path take that ride Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Going from poor to at least middle class is not dependent on taking from others. From Wikipedia: Competition is a contest between individuals, groups, animals, etc. for territory, a niche, or a location of resources. It arises whenever two and only two strive for a goal which cannot be shared....Business is often associated with competition as most companies are in competition with at least one other firm over the same group of customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted November 22, 2011 Author Share Posted November 22, 2011 The first two who engaged in capitalism were told "Well done thou good and faithful servant". Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted November 22, 2011 Share Posted November 22, 2011 Didn't take illegals to undercut me. Illegals mostly do good work....They can take their money back home and it's worth even more. So yes, if some maid service opened up in your town using strictly illegals, they could put you out of business. Is that fair? No, but that's Capitalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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