What does Occupy Wall Street Want?

[Robert]

I'll tell you what would happen if Capitalists go to heaven - they would take down the perils off the gates...they would meltdown the golden streets. All for gain! Heaven would become ruined by self-seeking.

The love of self will not be taken to heaven. Here's a glimpse:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Didn't take illegals to undercut me.

Illegals mostly do good work....They can take their money back home and it's worth even more. So yes, if some maid service opened up in your town using strictly illegals, they could put you out of business. Is that fair? No, but that's Capitalism.

Not quite sure you understand.If someone opened up using strictly illegals and I could not hold my own I would expect to be put out of business.Housecleaning service gives you acess to personal information,bank records at times,acess in some cases to priceless antiques.jewelry etc.Most I worked for they would have never hired a cleaning service because someone was willing to undercut.The more modest homes would at times try to save some dollars.When they found someone cheaper and did not do a call back I cut my losses and found new ones.That was far more productive than whining about the unfairness of capitalism.There were several that did undercut me and by a sizable amount per hour. Big deal,it was their right to choose to do that.

Fair? Life with or without capitalism is unfair no matter how you look at it. Since the fall of Adam and Eve there hasn't been fairness in life. Deal with it or whine about it.It really is a personal choice.

There are many biblical examples of unfairness where those written about did not continually gripe about the unfairness and refuse to better their situation.

Joseph must have been a very frightened,heartbroken young man.What did he do with his situation. Couldn't have been to pleasant for Daniel either. Never read where either whined and complained about a situation most of us would have considered understandable to just give up.

We do not live in same world as Adam and Eve before the fall.

[bonnie]

I'll tell you what would happen if Capitalists go to heaven - they would take down the perils off the gates...they would meltdown the golden streets. All for gain! Heaven would become ruined by self-seeking.

The love of self will not be taken to heaven. Here's a glimpse:

"In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

No one suggessted that life in heaven will as on earth.If that were so there would be no point to heaven.Heaven will be perfect.

This earth has not been perfect since the fall and never will be.That is no excuse for not doing the best you can and all that you can while on earth.

What some rich man does with his money is none of my business or concern. What I do with my time,energy,talents and finances is my concern.I think biblically I am told to take care of all to the best of my ability.I am not told to whine and complain.

I don't think that attitude will be present in heaven either but it doesn't stop many from doing that

[Robert]

My point is that Capitalism is based on Lucifer's love of self and is entirely opposed to God's self-less love that is the basis of His government.

[bonnie]

My point is that Capitalism is based on Lucifer's love of self and is entirely opposed to God's self-less love that is the basis of His government.

I am well aware what your point is.

We do not live in the world your point is making.God did not intend sin either.Sin changed the way the human race would survive and prosper.

We live in a world where we must support our families and ourselves.The bible indicates more than once God wants us to prosper.

That is done by commerce whether you like it or not.God also gives us the freedom to be what we choose to be.Many of course make their livliehood thru fraud and deceit. Many are very successful and live only for themselves.Others work hard, succeed and are very generous with their time,talents and finances.All take capitalism.Capitalism in one way or another has been a fact of life since the fall. It is not that God condemns,it is what each of us choose to do with it.

Perhaps you have found a way to live without engaging in it,or at the very least benefiting from those that do,but I haven't.

I can sit down and say capitalism is not God's way and wait for those that engage in it to feed my family,or I can work towards supporting my family and using what I can for the benefit of others.I choose not to sit down and demand others take care of me and mine

[Guest]

She's right Robert.

[Robert]

We live in a world where we must support our families and ourselves. The bible indicates more than once God wants us to prosper. That is done by commerce whether you like it or not.

1 John 2:16 "For everything in the world--the cravings of sinful man, the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does--comes not from the Father but from the world."

Lucifer has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

God's way of prosperity is illustrated in chapters 2 & 4 of the book of Acts:

Acts 2:44 "All the believers were together and had everything in common"

Acts 4:32 "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had . 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God's grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them! "

Notice that God's way of producing prosperity is through His agape love - a love that is not self-seeking!

When God's people begin to rest in His finished work then God will be revealed through His church. Then it will be said, "Here are they that keep the commandments of God". Until then the world is in the church, period!

Selfishness girds many about as with iron bands. It is “my farm,” “my goods,” “my trade,” “my merchandise.”.... Men and women professing to be waiting and loving the appearing of their Lord are shut up to self. The noble, the godlike, they have parted with. The love of the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, the pride of life (1 John 2:16), have so fastened upon them that they are blinded. They are corrupted by the world and discern it not. [Ellen White]

[Robert]

She's right Robert.

Yes, she's dead wrong....What you and others are presenting is a right-wing approach to prosperity. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have a solution. In this world you must regulate greed...you must regulate Capitalism. Bush's failure to do so has made the rich, richer. Obama isn't much better....

[Dr. Shane]

I'll tell you what would happen if Capitalists go to heaven - they would take down the perils off the gates...they would meltdown the golden streets. All for gain! Heaven would become ruined by self-seeking.

That's a good one!

[bonnie]

Acts 2:44 "All the believers were together and had everything in common"

Acts 4:32 "All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had . 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God's grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them! "

As this is one portion of scripture you seem to dwell on,leaving out all other examples,can I assume that this is the way you live? I am making the assumption you consider yourself a believer? Are these words simply to be thrown out there for effect or is it something you truly believe should be the way you live and do?

Have you traded in your pillow for a rock? Do you possess more than Christ did?

Where in scripture do you find that this is a command for all to live this way all of the time? What do you do about the many,many others that give a pretty balanced approach to what our lives should be?

What do you do with 1 Timothy 5:8?

If anyone does not provide for his family and those of his own household,he has denied the faith and is worse than the unbeliever.

This is referring to personal responsibility of providing for your own family,not communal provision. Sounds like a little capitalism to me,you work,you are paid,you purchase and provide for you family.

Take a look at Proverbs,the texts referring to work,laziness,commerce are to numerous to mention

Proverbs 31:10-27 is a excellent example of commerce,profit,generosity.It says nothing about all things in common.

She seeks wool and flax.....She is like merchant ships...Rises while still dark......Provides food for her household.....Considers a field and buys it....From her PROFITS she plants a vineyard...She perceives her merchandise is good......She extends her hand to the poor....Yes she reaches her hand out to the poor

Taking scripture as a whole and not just a very small portion gives a pretty clear picture.

[Robert]

Where in scripture do you find that this is a command for all to live this way all of the time?

[Robert]

Here's unregulated Capitalism (Laissez-faire):

View graph

[bonnie]

Where do you get that all that engage in capitalism do so with the sole intent of becoming wealthy?

Where has this ever been denied....but we must balance this with the following:Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction

As for putting much faith in wealth or in this world,never subscribed to that,knowing soon it will disappear.That does not prevent me from doing the best I can at this time with whatever talents God has blessed me with.

Not sure why you make this sound as if this is a new concept or only one you have discovered....Capitalism will fail and fail hardalong with all the freedoms we have.

[bonnie]

Here's unregulated Capitalism (Laissez-faire):

View graph

Equality of outcome is a lack of freedom.

The graph says nothing to distinguish between those that obtain wealth by dishonest means,those that do so honestly,the needy poor that need to be cared for by us and the poor that wear their poverty on their sleeves,demanding others remove it.

[bonnie]

In the late 70's there was a SDA man from MN that was so preoccupied with "all things in common" of Acts that he ignored any and all other scripture.Every SS class,any conversation would lead to that and condemnation of the rich/selfish/unchristian pursuit of individual livelihood/possessions.Strangely enough, he always drove a expensive new vehicle and seemed to have plenty of discretionary income.I will give the man some credit in that he put his beliefs where his mouth was. I always wondered if his obsession with those few scriptures were a result of his own personal guilt in the way he lived.

He wandered from church to church and eventually stirred up enough controversy that he gained several converts to his ideology. He purchased a large acreage in Northern MN,of course with money others contributed. They did have a beautiful spot and everyone was happy with their little heaven on earth for a brief time.They moved in several nice homes,planted huge gardens and the men went off to their "capitalistic" jobs.The leader's continual rantings on the topic of "selfish, wicked, corrupt,filthy man soon took it's toll.The children of course could see nothing good,the bible told them so.What was the point for the adults that were filthy and wretched already to do much of anything?

Why did one work 12 hours a day and another 8 hours and they and their children all received same.Not surprisingly,that little piece of heavenly all things in common did not last long.Some did go back to their respective churches,others left religion altogether deciding it was all a crock

Somehow I think God in his wisdom knew more,understanding fallen man.He knew we had to work to support and educate our children,he did not make appreciation of beautiful things a sin,only sin when they became the center of our lives.He knew that the best way was to instill in parents a fierce ,protective love for their children,at least mothers,I will let the men speak for themselves.

My children were meant by God to come first in importance with me,not ignoring other children in need,but first obligation was to my sons.God understood it would take capitalism/commerce.

Because you work and prosper on this earth does not mean being foolish enough to believe capitalism will be practiced in heaven or that any christian believes it will be.God did promise the faithful they would prosper.Maybe some think that means accumulated wealth.To prosper to me, meant doing the best possible with what I was given,being a good wife/mother,having a modest,decent home,and having christian sons.

[Guest]

Do you want grace or law? If law "love your neighbor as you love yourself". If you want grace understand that the very fact you are engaged in Capitalism makes you a sinner under law.

What nonsense Robert! Capitalism is not a sin. Read Matt 25 some time.

The problem with this lopsided message that you preach, is that when people first hear it they assume that you must live under a bridge somewhere. And then when they find out you don't, they say something like:

"Oh look, another nut job jumping up and down telling us how we should live, but doesn't believe it enough to do it himself. What a hypocrite."

So it's really not very effective. You can't give away something you don't have.

I still love you tho brother Robert.

[Robert]

What nonsense Robert! Capitalism is not a sin. Read Matt 25 some time.

Matt chapter 25 is in no way promoting Capitalism. Capitalism, like Communism and Socialism belongs to the world. The world is under Lucifer and his ways are seen in everything.

Again, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

[Guest]

Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.”

That is true. I guess what I disagree with is the conclusion that you take it to.

[Guest]

In the late 70's there was a SDA man from MN that was so preoccupied with "all things in common" of Acts that he ignored any and all other scripture.Every SS class,any conversation would lead to that and condemnation of the rich/selfish/unchristian pursuit of individual livelihood/possessions.Strangely enough, he always drove a expensive new vehicle and seemed to have plenty of discretionary income.I will give the man some credit in that he put his beliefs where his mouth was. I always wondered if his obsession with those few scriptures were a result of his own personal guilt in the way he lived.

He wandered from church to church and eventually stirred up enough controversy that he gained several converts to his ideology. He purchased a large acreage in Northern MN,of course with money others contributed. They did have a beautiful spot and everyone was happy with their little heaven on earth for a brief time.They moved in several nice homes,planted huge gardens and the men went off to their "capitalistic" jobs.The leader's continual rantings on the topic of "selfish, wicked, corrupt,filthy man soon took it's toll.The children of course could see nothing good,the bible told them so.What was the point for the adults that were filthy and wretched already to do much of anything?

Why did one work 12 hours a day and another 8 hours and they and their children all received same.Not surprisingly,that little piece of heavenly all things in common did not last long.Some did go back to their respective churches,others left religion altogether deciding it was all a crock

Somehow I think God in his wisdom knew more,understanding fallen man.He knew we had to work to support and educate our children,he did not make appreciation of beautiful things a sin,only sin when they became the center of our lives.He knew that the best way was to instill in parents a fierce ,protective love for their children,at least mothers,I will let the men speak for themselves.

My children were meant by God to come first in importance with me,not ignoring other children in need,but first obligation was to my sons.God understood it would take capitalism/commerce.

Because you work and prosper on this earth does not mean being foolish enough to believe capitalism will be practiced in heaven or that any christian believes it will be.God did promise the faithful they would prosper.Maybe some think that means accumulated wealth.To prosper to me, meant doing the best possible with what I was given,being a good wife/mother,having a modest,decent home,and having christian sons.

AMEN!!! And the story of that man was an excellent example of where Robert's kind of thinking leads.

[John317]

Lazarus, you have already let it be known that you are a socialist.

The United States of America has a capitalst economy and is based on free enterprise. Americans don't want the government involved in their private lives any more than it absolutely has to in order to do what the United States Constitution calls for it to do.

[John317]

What nonsense Robert! Capitalism is not a sin. Read Matt 25 some time.

Originally Posted By: Robert

Matt chapter 25 is in no way promoting Capitalism. Capitalism, like Communism and Socialism belongs to the world. The world is under Lucifer and his ways are seen in everything.

The nations of the world must have some kind of economic system, and the American people have chosen to have the economic system that promotes and encourages the greatest amount of individual liberty. That would NOT be socialist/Marxist or communist systems. The USA spent most of the years since WWII fighting against socialist and communist systems in order to keep Americans free and to maintain the free enterprise system.

[lazarus]

Lazarus, you have already let it be known that you are a socialist.

? really? Nope you're wrong?

Quote:

The United States of America has a capitalst economy and is based on free enterprise. Americans don't want the government involved in their private lives any more than it absolutely has to in order to do what the United States Constitution calls for it to do.

Americans are scared of the S word but they are really as dominated by their government as many other western nations.

[Guest]

The nations of the world must have some kind of economic system, and the American people have chosen to have the economic system that promotes and encourages the greatest amount of individual liberty. That would NOT be socialist/Marxist or communist systems. The USA spent most of the years since WWII fighting against socialist and communist systems in order to keep Americans free and to maintain the free enterprise system.

Amen! If my dad were still here, he would be sorely shocked and amazed at the direction this country has gone/is going.

[Guest]

? really? Nope you're wrong?

Now that question mark after "nope you're wrong?". Does that mean that maybe he's not wrong? Wouldn't that be classified as a non-statement made to look like a statement? Or is it just a non-statement?

Is that legal in Maryland? I guess it is, being that it's so close to Washington D.C.

[Guest]

Lazarus, you have already let it be known that you are a socialist.

The United States of America has a capitalst economy and is based on free enterprise. Americans don't want the government involved in their private lives any more than it absolutely has to in order to do what the United States Constitution calls for it to do.

Thomas Jefferson couldn't have said it any better.