Robert Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 The USA spent most of the years since WWII fighting against socialist and communist systems in order to keep Americans free and to maintain the free enterprise system. Americans aren't free. We belong to a system that is entirely based on Lucifer's system of self-seeking and therefore we are in bondage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 17, 2011 Americans aren't free. We belong to a system that is entirely based on Lucifer's system of self-seeking and therefore we are in bondage. You're viewing "freedom" in a different way from how I am using the word. It's true most of the world is in bondage to Lucifer's system of self-seeking, but no government or political/economic system is designed to deal with that kind of freedom. Only the gospel of Christ can free people spiritually. But the point here is that the free enterprise system, together with our Republican form of governmet, frees people from government domination and allows them the maximum amount of liberty in expressing their views and in realizing their individual capabilities. Do you think the socialist/communist systems would be an improvement over what America has had over the last 200+ years? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 17, 2011 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Lazarus, you have already let it be known that you are a socialist. ? really? Nope you're wrong? I apologize if I got that wrong, Laz, but let me explain why I said what I did. I remember distinctly that you wrote in your posts around 2008 that you are a socialist. Maybe you were being facetious or sarcastic or overstating your position. In any case, how would you express your views toward the American economic system? Are you in favor of free enterprise and capitalism or do you want to see it changed (or continue to change) in the direction of socialism? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 17, 2011 The United States of America has a capitalst economy and is based on free enterprise. Americans don't want the government involved in their private lives any more than it absolutely has to in order to do what the United States Constitution calls for it to do. Originally Posted By: lazarus Americans are scared of the S word but they are really as dominated by their government as many other western nations. Why are we Americans generally opposed to socialism? It's true that our government has become increasingly dominant in our lives over the last 60+ years, and that's exactly what many Americans want to stop. That is no doubt the reason for the Tea Party movement and Ron Paul's growing popularity. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Do you think the socialist/communist systems would be an improvement over what America has had over the last 200+ years? That is the question. I know which one I'm voting for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 ...the point here is that the free enterprise system, together with our Republican form of governmet, frees people from government domination and allows them the maximum amount of liberty in expressing their views and in realizing their individual capabilities. Limited freedom of speech.... "realizing their individual capabilities" still has self-seeking in it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 ...the point here is that the free enterprise system, together with our Republican form of governmet, frees people from government domination and allows them the maximum amount of liberty in expressing their views and in realizing their individual capabilities. Limited freedom of speech.... "realizing their individual capabilities" still has self-seeking in it. Perhaps we should all sit down,do nothing for fear of self seeking,refuse to work as that certainly is self seeking. Anything other than the barest necessities should be shunned,forget about educating our children. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Perhaps we should all sit down, do nothing for fear of self seeking, refuse to work as that certainly is self seeking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Competition - is it sin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie Perhaps we should all sit down, do nothing for fear of self seeking, refuse to work as that certainly is self seeking. No, live for others only. That's the mind of Christ. Love your neighbors as you naturally love yourself. Don't sit on your bottom...get out and live for others. That's what Christ did. Now I realize that we fall short of God's agape love....That's why all Capitalism will fail. It's built on the principle of self! Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 Competition - is it sin? If you make every effort to to and be the best you can be at any endeavor you are not taking anything from another that is rightfully theirs. Again,I am assuming that whatever your occupation is you refuse to do your best so as not to compete with someone else. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I seriously doubt if capitalism is the reason for Christs second coming. Everything will fail. It will fail because of sin. What is sin? Answer: The love of self based in self-seeking. Agape, according to 1 Cor 13:5, is not self-seeking. James 3:16 For where envy and self-seeking exist, disorder (anarchy) and every evil thing are there. James 4:1 What causes wars and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight. You do not have, because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your own pleasures. "Laissez Faire" is French for "leave alone" which means that the government leaves the people alone regarding all economic activities. The result? Exploitation! Our government must regulate greed, period. The problem is Corporate America owns the politicians and hence our government is corrupt. So you really don't have a democracy, you have a plutocracy! Now what happens when this fully comes into play? James 5:1 Now listen, you rich people, weep and wail because of the misery that is coming upon you. 2 Your wealth has rotted, and moths have eaten your clothes. 3 Your gold and silver are corroded. Their corrosion will testify against you and eat your flesh like fire. You have hoarded wealth in the last days....You have lived on earth in luxury and self-indulgence. You have fattened yourselves in the day of slaughter (anarchy). Again, "For where envy and self-seeking exist, disorder (anarchy) and every evil thing are there." It's coming....And when the system is shown to be fully corrupt our plutocracy will then turn to apostate religion to appease the masses. That's the time of trouble.... Political corruption is destroying love of justice and regard for truth; and even in free America, rulers and legislators, in order to apostate secure public favor, will yield to the popular demand for a law enforcing Sunday observance. [Ellen White] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Plutocracy, according to Wikipedia, is where the wealthy minority may exert influence over the political arena via many methods. Most western democracies permit partisan organizations to raise funds for politicians, and political parties frequently accept significant donations from various individuals (either directly or through corporations or advocacy groups). Many corporations and business interest groups pay lobbyists to maintain constant contact with elected officials, and press them for favorable legislation. Again, you can't have representation (hence a democracy) when "the wealthy" buy politicians. Remember, it's legal, but in God's eyes it's sin! James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 James 2:8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. It's ironic that the context of the above is comparing the poor to the rich. Here's the context: James 2:2 Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes (i.e., a rich man), and a poor man in shabby clothes also comes in. 3 If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, "Here's a good seat for you," but say to the poor man, "You stand there" or "Sit on the floor by my feet," 4 have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts? Our system is built on exploitation! It's designed for the wealthy so they can gain the system. And they get the middle classes involved in their corruption through Wall Street. How so? If you want to see your investment grow then you must take away benefits from the working man....It's a catch 22 since most of us are middle class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Social justice devotees are gearing up for oil-justice, and they will be left out of the party - eternally. "And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. 11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not." carry on and "carry nothing out." G Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 It's coming....And when the system is shown to be fully corrupt our plutocracy will then turn to apostate religion to appease the masses. That's the time of trouble.... I added to my previous quote. See underlined above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Robert It's coming....And when the system is shown to be fully corrupt our plutocracy will then turn to apostate religion to appease the masses. That's the time of trouble.... I added to my previous quote. See underlined above. Perhaps you have found this utopia you keep stressing.Hopefully you will share it with the rest of us. If not,can I assume this is the path you follow regardless? Not everyone is so obsessed with power and greed.Getting an education and having a good job is a little different than striving to become rich and keeping all for yourself. Maybe that is something you deal with,I have no idea,but most don't. Neither is the fact that there are corrupt politicians are the rich that buy influence an excuse for not doing the best you can at whatever you endeavor.You seem to think that is sinful competition. When my husband hired someone that would not do his best,only enough to get by,he was gone in short order.Regardless of what the competition down the street was doing,my husband had a certain standard and that was the rule of the day. He was expected to give the best service to his clients for the money they paid him. An honest man will not cut corners or allow any working for him to do less than his best. To dwell on select portions of scripture and demand others accept your narrow view is shortsighted and leaves much out of God's instruction. Of course the time of trouble is coming.What would you suggest. All sit down and wait so as not to appear greedy and corrupt? Without successful people,not necessarily rich,little of what we should be doing would go to far. If I barely scrape by in attempt to avoid as much capitalism as possible that limits my ability to help anyone else as well as my own family. I cannot help students go to the academy,I cannot provide warm clothing for children without,or warm bedding.I can't drop off food at the local food shelf,I won't have the gas money to provide needed transportation for those that need it. As Olger pointed out,I can sit there with my lamp until it goes out or .......... When you do all you can do and have nothing more than you actually need,when you do not feel the need to do the best you can at your job because you don't believe in "competition" then get back to me and let me know how well it is working. We do not leave in a sin free world and yes the time is coming when this will be no more,till then I intend to do the best I can with whatever talents God has seen fit to give me,both for the benefit of my family and others.I will occupy till he comes. I do not intend to walk around moaning about the evils of capitalism.Hopefully like millions do,I will use it wisely. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 18, 2011 It's coming....And when the system is shown to be fully corrupt our plutocracy will then turn to apostate religion to appease the masses. That's the time of trouble.... Spot on. The political system is corrupt and the root of the corruption is money. This applies to republicans and democrats. The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. (1 Tim 6:10). It's clear the Capitalist system is broken and history has shown us what nations resort to in order to maintain or build their empires. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Robert It's coming....And when the system is shown to be fully corrupt our plutocracy will then turn to apostate religion to appease the masses. That's the time of trouble.... Spot on. The political system is corrupt and the root of the corruption is money. This applies to republicans and democrats. The Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. (1 Tim 6:10). It's clear the Capitalist system is broken and history has shown us what nations resort to in order to maintain or build their empires. And you would suggest what? Do you engage in capitalism? Do you work for financial gain? Do you have more than you need? Maybe you should put into practice what Robert is saying. Nothing is stopping you from getting by with the barest necessities and giving all else. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I like Capitalism. For instance, I wanted to have a new Cutler-Hammer electric service hooked up in our shop - converting the previous panel. I called the husband of a young girl in our church. He is a non-adventist but comes to church a couple times a year (to appease the wife I think). He gave me a price and we agreed. He did the work efficiently. He asked me afterwards if I was satisfied - I was. I paid him the agreed-on price and both of us were happy. "The laborer is worthy of his hire." Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 The assumption seems to be if you work hard do your level best in any endeavor,earn a good living it somehow represents evil intent. I am pretty sure we are all aware we will not be living the same life in heaven and can take nothing with us.That does not mean that all live for the sole purpose of accumulating as much wealth and power as possible and hoarding it. For those that have such a problem with capitalism and "sinful competition" there is a pretty simple cure. Warren Buffet was whining about the unfairness and tired of being coddled. Haven't heard that he has taken steps to put his money where his mouth is. Work for basic necessities,do not strive to do your best lest you be seen as competing and depriving someone else,that pension that is being set aside,you can't take it with you,there are others that need it,get rid of it. Mother Threasa set a excellent example.She did not condemn and whine and complain about the unfairness of life or capitalism. She many times ate only one meal a day,giving what someone would normally eat to others.She had nothing but the clothes on her back and I am sure there was not numerous changes of clothing in her wardrobe.Don't believe she had a car and am quite certain wherever she laid her head at night it was not a air conditioned or comfortably heated bedroom. She walked the talk. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 18, 2011 I like Capitalism. They like capitalism in China too! Liking it does not fix it problems or make it work better, you should know that. Millions of people around the world pay for goods and services so your every day. That's part of living on this planet! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 18, 2011 Bonnie, I must try that tactic, arguing against points people haven't made. It's a good way of not dealing with the topic at hand. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I like Capitalism. Capitalism good! Nice looking service! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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