bonnie Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 Bonnie, I must try that tactic, arguing against points people haven't made. It's a good way of not dealing with the topic at hand. I asked you what your suggestion would be.What would you want in place? The point is you are opposed to capitalism so why do you take part anymore than is necessary? The system of capitalism is not broken,it is those that abuse it. Corruption,pride,greed will always be with us,always has been since the fall,more so the closer to the end we get.Nothing new there. According to what Robert posted we are not to strive to excel. If I do a job better than someone else,somehow that is depriving another.So what are we to be doing in your opinion? Mother Theresa is not off topic.She walked the talk of Robert. So those that believe competition and capitalism is evil,take her example and live the life of sacrifice she did. You do not have to account for what others do but we all have to account for our own actions. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Very well put! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted December 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 18, 2011 The system of capitalism is not broken,it is those that abuse it. Are you saying that the capitalist system is working well? Are saying there is no need for change? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted December 18, 2011 Members Share Posted December 18, 2011 Well Lazarus I hear your argument, but as Bonnie says, what than would you put in its place? I agree nothing or no system seems to work and that's, in my opinion, because of greed. So instead of calling the system we have now in the USofA capitolism maybe we should call it greedism. Olgers example is pretty much a perfect example of what it should be, but unfortunately olger that's not the way most things are working right now. Greed has taken over almost every aspect of America, there is no denying that. Obviously the system that God setup with Israel was that perfect system, but even that didn't work out, did it! That's because greedism worked its way into that. As far as Robert's idea, its unrealistic, it will never happen here on earth. That doesn't mean we can't strive for the best. Church and state will never be a good thing, because without God it will fall apart. things will change when Jesus sets up his Kingdom, until than we have to just do our best. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie The system of capitalism is not broken,it is those that abuse it. Are you saying that the capitalist system is working well? Are saying there is no need for change? What change do you suggest? You always refuse to answer that. Do you think there is a system that does away with greed and corruption? God gave us free will. Capitalism is a great thing,in the wrong hands it isn't.Whose free will are you going to remove so that greed and corruption no longer exists on this earth? As we get closer to the end of this earth describe to me the system and the country/place where we can go to where this isn't so. Otherwise we need to do our best,we need to work,we need to provide for our families and all the rest. For those that believe it is capitalism itself that is the problem,Robert's scenerio should have you/Robert and all those that are of a like mind following the example of someone that has walked the talk. I don't see that here Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Capitalism good! Then you can stay here with your Capitalism when Jesus returns to setup His government based on agape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 What change do you suggest? God's Government, which isn't based on self-seeking, self-love, love of money and gain. Competition comes from Lucifer, not God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 ....until than we have to just do our best. I understand your meaning, but for those folks who push perfection in the flesh doing "our best" is still sin. Keep in mind that "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself." Jesus didn't participate in self-seeking & gain, not even by a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie What change do you suggest? God's Government, which isn't based on self-seeking, self-love, love of money and gain. Competition comes from Lucifer, not God. Are you living as you should in God's government? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Mother Threasa set a excellent example. Actually Jesus is your example. Mother Threasa was indoctrinated by a cult that believes in salvation by works. Such works come not from the Father, but from the flesh. Works motivated by the flesh are bent to self and are essentially self-righteous. Men looks at the outside; God looks at the motive. Nevertheless, God takes us where we are at.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Are you living as you should in God's government? Earth to Bonnie: God's Government has not been established on earth, yet. If it were there would be no Capitalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 I like Capitalism. Under capitalism, a small minority of people are in control of the money and resources of the planet. They accumulate wealth and power and move their money and factories around at will to keep their profits high and wages low. Profit comes before people and the environment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie What change do you suggest? God's Government, which isn't based on self-seeking, self-love, love of money and gain. Competition comes from Lucifer, not God. Do you have a paying job, Robert? What is it? rejoice always. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: olger I like Capitalism. Under capitalism, a small minority of people are in control of the money and resources of the planet. They accumulate wealth and power and move their money and factories around at will to keep their profits high and wages low. Profit comes before people and the environment. Why should I care about the environment, it never gave a hoot about me. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 24, 2011 Author Share Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: olger I like Capitalism. Under capitalism, a small minority of people are in control of the money and resources of the planet. They accumulate wealth and power and move their money and factories around at will to keep their profits high and wages low. Profit comes before people and the environment. What is a fair wage to you? Profit in business is what pays people.As for a small minority being in control of money and resources,BULL FEATHERS Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 24, 2011 Author Share Posted December 24, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie Are you living as you should in God's government? Earth to Bonnie: God's Government has not been established on earth, yet. If it were there would be no Capitalism. Reality to Robert,after the fall there were changes in how man could/would live. If you are not living as you believe we all should than stop telling others how evil and wicked they are. Until God's government is established the system of capitalism is what we have.Most of us understand the conditions we now live under will not be part of our life in heaven. Most of us also understand the need to work and provide for our families.Now if you work and provide only the basic necessities and then stop so you are not "self seeking",good for you Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 24, 2011 Share Posted December 24, 2011 As for a small minority being in control of money and resources,BULL FEATHERS So you actually think that we have a democracy here in the USA? Wikipedia: "Plutocracy is rule by the wealthy, or power provided by wealth....Most western democracies permit partisan organizations to raise funds for politicians, and political parties frequently accept significant donations from various individuals (either directly or through corporations or advocacy groups). These donations may be part of a cronyist or patronage system, in which major contributors and fund-raisers are rewarded with high-ranking government appointments. While campaign donations need not directly affect the legislative decisions of elected representatives, politicians have a personal interest in serving the needs of their campaign contributors: if they fail to do so, those contributors will likely give their money to candidates who do support their interests in the future." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 View me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 View me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie Mother Teresa set a excellent example. Actually Jesus is your example. Mother Teresa was indoctrinated by a cult that believes in salvation by works. Such works come not from the Father, but from the flesh. Works motivated by the flesh are bent to self and are essentially self-righteous. Men looks at the outside; God looks at the motive. Nevertheless, God takes us where we are at.... The problem with "God takes us where we are at" is many take that to mean that "they can stay right where they are at".Anything else would surely be salvation by works. Yes, Christ is our example.That has nothing to do with having respect for the work many do. Everyone in your opinion seems to live/work/contribute for self righteousness and salvation by works.This post reads a lot more like Robert can look on the inside and judge motives. You are not in possession of that knowledge. THANK GOD. I do not know or care as to what the motivation was behind the actions of this woman.I don't care what faith she was.I will leave it to you to condemn and judge the actions of everyone else. What God accepts as coming from the heart of this woman is in His hands and He is a lot more qualified than you are to handle the role of judge. It does seem to make some feel better about their own selfishness to demean and question the motives of those more generous than themselves. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted December 25, 2011 Share Posted December 25, 2011 Sounds like you are the one doing the judging, Bonnie. Mankind is legalistic by nature. He is proud. It's natural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 So you actually think that we have a democracy here in the USA? I am well aware that we do not have a perfect form of government.There isn't such a thing. I also know many will use that as an excuse for their own failures.If they don't succeed it must be the fault of someone else. Maybe that works for you,it doesn't for me. Despite all the flawed people I can still succeed if I choose to,regardless of what Wall Street is doing or corrupt politicians. If I go to my local bank with a solid business plan and good credit the chances are I will be given the loan.If I am not prepared or have not kept my credit clean I won't. I don't believe my local bank is the only one in the country that does this. When I started my cleaning service,success or failure was largely in my hands.Success requires a strong work ethic/honesty and a desire to succeed. To you that is evil somehow. You take that to mean that I have deprived another of their chance by succeeding and this evil competition.In reality my goal was not to compete,worry about what the other guy was charging and to undercut.It was to charge what I felt my time was worth and to give more than the minimum of what I promised.Tough cookies to those that do it a different way and fail.Not my problem.I paid those that worked for me more than they could get elsewhere. Not to compete and take away from other businesses,but because of the high turnover of employee's.When you go into the homes of others unsupervised it is not the best idea to be having a new face every week or so.That worked for me,others somehow make it work despite their high turnover. Even God does not promise or provide equal outcome.He provides the equal opportunity.Some will always whine and complain about their outcomes not being equal,others will use the corruption of others to cover their own behavior and somehow feel righteous while doing so. Doesn't work for me. My siblings and I were taught to do the best we could with the circumstances and talents given us,regardless of what the other guy was doing.That included even when money or reward of some kind was not part of that.It was not another rung on the ladder to salvation,it simply was our responsibility to do the best we knew how. The surest way to find ourselves in deep trouble was to blame the other guy for our actions or our lack. God will examine your motives as surely as He will mine. I am very grateful He will not do that by comparing my motives to those on Wall Street,politicians and especially those that hold your viewpoint. I will be judged solely on my belief in God and where that belief takes me. I don't believe it is going to work to say "God,you promised to meet me where I am and I insist on staying there because of the fear of self seeking or salvation by works" Go for it if that works for you Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted December 25, 2011 Members Share Posted December 25, 2011 Sounds like you are the one doing the judging, Bonnie. How can you say this Robert? You just said that Mother Terisa was a legalist! How do you know that????? Your the one that is judging. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 25, 2011 Author Share Posted December 25, 2011 Sounds like you are the one doing the judging, Bonnie. Mankind is legalistic by nature. He is proud. It's natural. If I had to have the attitude you express and be so obssessed with legalism in every action or move I made I don't think I would bother getting up in the morning.Life would not be worth living to me. I did not judge you or anyone. I can look at the good Mother Theresa accomplished and be thankful for people like that.How she came to live the life of service she did is not my business.Neither do I care what religious beliefs she held.God is going to take care of that without help from either you or me. Apparently God sees far more value in mankind than you do,perhaps you need to fill him in. In what sounds like a effort to avoid legalism perhaps you think we should not do anything. If that works for you,have at it. Sounds like a very unrewarding way to live. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted December 26, 2011 Author Share Posted December 26, 2011 In our small town and surrounding communities we have some very service oriented churches. One day a week you can go and get free food.You are encouraged to bring clothes baskets so that you can carry out your own. You are also invited to pick up free food if you know of those going without and can't come themselves or are to embarrassed to. The donated items are far more than just the routine staples and present a wide variety of fresh produce,frozen and fresh meats,juice ,milk eggs and baked goods. I am not going to try to inspect the motives of those that do this and demean their efforts.Are they trying to work for their salvation? Don't know,but neither do you. Nor are either of us in charge of the judgment. It seems in your opinion if I go and pick up food items for someone I know is in need to fill in what I cannot afford to purchase out of my own funds,that is legalism. For me,I appreciate the fact it is available so that I can leave it at someone's door without them knowing where it came from and know they will not be going hungry. I have never been under the illusion that is going to move me one step higher in the ladder of salvation.Nor am I going to demean others and put their motives under a microscope. Nor am I inclined to say,"Lord,you know what you said about legalists and I don't want you to judge me as one,so I think I will just condemn the efforts of others and do nothing" After all,we know what a worthless,legalistic,proud,evil people they are. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.