What does Occupy Wall Street Want?

[Robert]

When I started my cleaning service,success or failure was largely in my hands.Success requires a strong work ethic/honesty and a desire to succeed.

Do you pay your maids a living wage?

[Robert]

You just said that Mother Terisa was a legalist! How do you know that????? Your the one that is judging.

Here's what I said:

Mother Teresa was indoctrinated by a cult that believes in salvation by works. Such works come not from the Father, but from the flesh. Works motivated by the flesh are bent to self and are essentially self-righteous. Men looks at the outside; God looks at the motive.

I never stated Mother Teresa was a legalist. I said the Roman Catholic Church, of which she belonged, teaches salvation by faith & works. She belonged to this cult. That's all I said. However, I clearly stated that God accepts believers in their error.

[Robert]

Sounds like a very unrewarding way to live.

And therein is your problem. You want a reward. Do it for the right motive.....Don't let the right hand know what the left hand is doing.

Luke 16:13 "No servant can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." 14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus. 15 He said to them, "You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of men, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valued among men is detestable in God's sight.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

When I started my cleaning service,success or failure was largely in my hands.Success requires a strong work ethic/honesty and a desire to succeed.

Do you pay your maids a living wage?

Yes? No? If not, why not? Profit?

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Do you pay your maids a living wage? [/quote']

Yes,I did.I paid them well above what they could get working for most of the other cleaning services.BTW,they were not maids.

Profit was of course my ultimate goal.I started my own because I wanted/needed more per hour than I was getting from someone else. Instead of whining and complaining about the unfairness of life,I went into business for myself

Did I pay them what I was making.NO.If that had been my aim I would have kept only the number of clients I could take care of alone. Any employee was free at anytime to strike out on their own.A few of them did.One succeeded. Finding out the cost of insurance,bonding was a shock.The responsibility required for the scheduling and the risk for bringing employee's into homes unsupervised,where very expensive jewelry,fur coats and many times cash laying around cured most of wanting their own business fast. My fees were high enough to cover that and make it worthwhile.

The first responsibility of my husband and myself was our children and providing for them the best possible upbringing we could.God created the family unit.That does not necessarily mean wealth,but it does mean providing material comforts and a education,food in the cupboard,a reasonable roof over their head. That means money in this world,unless we wanted our sons to be a drain on society.

We do not live in a pre-fall world or the utopian picture you would like to paint.

[bonnie]

And therein is your problem. You want a reward. Do it for the right motive.....Don't let the right hand know what the left hand is doing.

Your "RIGHT MOTIVE" is not the right motive as far as I am concerned.

Your motive seems to be to condemn/judge anyone for any actions, absolving yourself from personal greed or reward as that will not give you eternal life.

Not serving two masters does not mean working for profit is your master for most of us.Maybe it does for you and that is why you attribute that text to everyone else. If that is true you have my sympathies.There are those that wake up every morning with a gleam in the eye as to how much wealth they can accumulate.The few I have known like that are very visibly unhappy people with a very antagonistic attitude towards any they think might be getting more.OR they are trying to justify their own selfish,sour outlook by claiming

all actions/behavior is legalistic

God intended for us to be happy.Selfish,self centered,legalistic people are not. There is also more than one form of legalism and it might be worthwhile to look into that.

The reward you are referring to and the reward I was referring to are miles apart.

When I know someone is going without the necessary basics and I can help,even if it is thru someone else it does make me feel much better when I go to bed at night.I don't think that is wrong,you do. But I would rather be wrong in that way than going to bed at night congratulating myself on not being legalistic and avoiding that "REWARD"

This is the key phrase.... God knows your hearts.

Personally,I believe your understanding or what you wish for scripture to say is very wrong.God does not want a unhappy,condemning,selfish,self centered christian. After the fall,I believe God in His infinite wisdom,which far surpasses yours, gave us the ultimate plan to survive in a sinful world.

We all sin,that is a given.We cannot take any material possession/money with us.That is also a given. But the sour faced,negative,condemning,self centered can't be taken either.

The legalist,whatever form that legalism takes as a means to gain eternal life will not gain eternal life either. There is more than one form of legalism

I will take my chances on working to take care of my family,doing the best I can,whether for them or someone else instead of condemning and examining the motives of everyone else.

Maybe some should spend at least as much time examining their motives in always condemning the actions of others.

[phkrause]

But your implying that Robert.

[phkrause]

And therein is your problem. You want a reward. Do it for the right motive.....Don't let the right hand know what the left hand is doing.

How do you know that????? Nobody but God knows anyones motives. If you claim to know why someone is paying someone so n so much for services, that's saying I am God.

[bonnie]

But your implying that Robert.

There is more than one way to be guilty of legalism.It can deny you eternal life as surely as what Robert is posting.

The bible states we will be judged "according to our works".I don't believe that means that "works" will gain you eternal life.

Taking into account other counsel given it means for me what I do with the belief I claim and what that promotes.

It does not mean that every action on my part is to be condemned as a act of selfish legalism.

You can be as legalistic in a obsessive desire to avoid legalism and be as wrong as those that think they can work their way to heaven with good works.

[phkrause]

There is more than one way to be guilty of legalism.It can deny you eternal life as surely as what Robert is posting.

The bible states we will be judged "according to our works".I don't believe that means that "works" will gain you eternal life.

Taking into account other counsel given it means for me what I do with the belief I claim and what that promotes.

It does not mean that every action on my part is to be condemned as a act of selfish legalism.

You can be as legalistic in a obsessive desire to avoid legalism and be as wrong as those that think they can work their way to heaven with good works.

[Guest]

II

[olger]

3.0

[Guest]

3.0

I need to upgrade.

[olger]

[Robert]

Yes,I did.

Do you know what a living wage is? It means you paid them wages above the poverty level. In my state it's $13.50 for one individual.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Yes,I did.

Do you know what a living wage is? It means you paid them wages above the poverty level. In my state it's $13.50 for one individual.

For your information this was a few years ago and the wage scale was not as it is now.But just to put your mind at rest and educate you as to how a cleaning service usually works,the ability to make above the agreed upon wage was in their hands.

In addition most were looking for a flexible schedule and not necessarily full time employment.

Even at that if they chose to give it their all they could make above your 13.50 an hour even at that time.

When I contracted the house the square footage was calculated and approximately the time it typically would require and the number of employee's in one home.It was made clear upfront to the home owner that it would be a flat fee even if the time required became less.Laundry,doing dishes,cleaning refrigerators/stoves/cupboards etc were additional.

With a good/fast/efficient team it was typical to get in and out quickly and take on more in the same day.

The employee's were paid accordingly.Those that wanted to work at a leisurely pace did not last long.

I did not begin because I wanted to employ people and provide a job for them. I did so for my family and knew what my time was worth. I had every intention of being compensated for the responsibility,risk,and hours it took and I was.

There were a few that actually felt they should be making what I was. They tried going on their own,they didn't last long.

I made a profit or I would never have started. Employee's were paid according to what they were willing to put in.Those worried more about my profit and less about the their efforts

were invited to go elsewhere.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

it seems like some of their demands are liberal

and some demands are conservative

I was thinking more like some were idiotic and some were inane, or should that be insane?

God blesses!

[Robert]

Even at that if they chose to give it their all they could make above your 13.50 an hour even at that time.

Good.

[Robert]

But your implying that Robert.

I'm implying that if you are Catholic you must believe in their doctrine. Clearly their doctrine on salvation is legalistic.

[Robert]

Your motive seems to be to condemn/judge....

At least you put "seems" in your statement, but it seems that your statement is being judgmental.

[Robert]

I paid them well above what they could get working for most of the other cleaning services.

Again, good. However my point is that competition is still sin and we all, to varying degrees, compete. At least you don't seem to be greedy. This is good.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I paid them well above what they could get working for most of the other cleaning services.

Again, good. However my point is that competition is still sin and we all, to varying degrees, compete. At least you don't seem to be greedy. This is good.

Good business practice is not sin.Everything to one degree or another in business is competition.That is not sin,that is the way it has to be in this world. You don't seem to believe you live in this world or are somehow exempt in your own pursuit of life.What you make as sin God did not. I believe God wants us happy and successful.

When I have the opportunity to do something for someone else and it gives me a certain satisfaction you have condemned that as seeking a reward.Yet God says differently. He says there will be a reward of some kind,not necessarily financial.If I give grudgingly and sparingly I will reap sparingly. If I give abundantly,I will reap abundantly.If I give anticipating what I will get in return for gain you would be right.God says I should be happy about giving as "He loves a cheerful giver" not someone railing constantly about the sin of self seeking while giving.

God also says He has pleasure in my prosperity.How can that be as to prosper I must compete in the work place?

In the parable of the talents the slothful servant,the one that did not pursue business/work was roundly condemned and he lost the little he had,while the other two were called faithful servants.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

Your motive seems to be to condemn/judge....

At least you put "seems" in your statement, but it seems that your statement is being judgmental.

No,I have formed an opinion based on your own words.

I would be a very unhappy person if I viewed life as you do.

Work is not a sin,working hard to achieve a goal is not a sin,nor is always an endless quest for extreme wealth and power.

Having a nice home,car,educating your children is not a sin,doing things for pleasure is not a sin,feeling happy and a sense of satisfaction being able to do something for another is not a sin.

The pursuit of the above for the motives you attribute to everyone is.

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I paid them well above what they could get working for most of the other cleaning services.

Again, good. However my point is that competition is still sin and we all, to varying degrees, compete. At least you don't seem to be greedy. This is good.

Let's not get all warm and fuzzy now.

I did not start that business because I was bored and needed something to occupy my time.

If I was going to take on that kind of responsibility,it was going to pay me and pay me well.

I had a demanding schedule and only those that wanted to be paid above average lasted more than a few days.Were the employee's greedy? Probably to a degree.They wanted to make the most in the least amount of time possible as I did.

[bonnie]

I am going to pick up a couple of baskets of food tomorrow for someone. You really need to get there early and in line as it is usually gone within an hour.

Your view would have me looking at all these people that do this as some legalistic self seeking self centered people that are doing this with ulterior motives.My view is I am very happy for these generous hard working people that take the time to organize this on a weekly basis.

Your view says I am somehow seeking a reward because I feel good about being able to help with that.

My view is that is what I should be doing.There is far more to being christian than saying "I believe". If that is true it will promote something in you,cause you to engage in certain actions.

I am not always happy about taking the time and the gas expense to do this,but at the end of the day I am always happy I did so. You say that is sin.God says that is what he likes."You Lose"

My dad always told us to be wary of the man that tells you how christian he is.When that happens,check you back pocket and see if your wallet is still there and then check your reputation.Chances are one or both will be gone.

If he is,he won't be able to hide it,nothing will have to be said.

My dad was a very astute man and a very good judge of human nature.He also cautioned us on those that believed they could not lose their salvation no matter how hard they tried as long as "They claimed to accept Christ as their savior"