What does Occupy Wall Street Want?

[LifeHiscost]

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It does seem to make some feel better about their own selfishness to demean and question the motives of those more generous than themselves.

I notice that God said as example, “The master was full of praise. ‘Well done, my good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in handling this small amount, so now I will give you many more responsibilities. Let’s celebrate together! ’

Matthew 25:21 NLT

"Well done" indicates something was done that was, at least in this particular example, considered to be worthy of bringing honorary attention. We are counseled that God allows an abundance through worthy pursuit in order that we might have enough to join with God in relieving the want in the lives of those less fortunate. We are told from the Word,

He did all this so you would never say to yourself, ‘I have achieved this wealth with my own strength and energy.’ Remember the Lord your God. He is the one who gives you power to be successful, in order to fulfill the covenant he confirmed to your ancestors with an oath.

“But I assure you of this: If you ever forget the Lord your God and follow other gods, worshiping and bowing down to them, you will certainly be destroyed. Deuteronomy 8:17-19

NLT

Abundance would seem to me to glorify God when used appropriately. To castigate the person who prospers is the evil one's way of misrepresenting the God of abundant health and wealth.

"Beloved, I pray that in all respects you may prosper and be in good health, just as your soul prospers." 3 John 1:2

It would seem to me if we wish to second guess God in His desires for His people, we need to be following His will without fault before sitting in judgement on any others, even those we are certain are falling short of the ideal.

"We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins."

Romans 3:22-24 NLT

"Rabbi, we know and are certain that You have come from God [as] a Teacher; for no one can do these signs (these wonderworks, these miracles--and produce the proofs) that You do unless God is with him.

Jesus answered him, I assure you, most solemnly I tell you, that unless a person is born again (anew, from above), he cannot ever see (know, be acquainted with, and experience) the kingdom of God."John 3:2-4 AMP Parenthesis brackets their's LHC

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

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"Earth to Bonnie: God's Government has not been established on earth, yet. If it were there would be no Capitalism."

"Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.” "Luke 17:20-22 NKJV

"Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven."Matthew 6:10 NKJV

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

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As for a small minority being in control of money and resources,BULL FEATHERS

Not to be contrary, Bonnie, but statistically speaking,

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http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/

Table 1: Distribution of net worth and financial wealth in the United States, 1983-2007

Total Net Worth

Top 1 percent Next 19 percent Bottom 80 percent

1983 33.8% 47.5% 18.7%

1989 37.4% 46.2% 16.5%

1992 37.2% 46.6% 16.2%

1995 38.5% 45.4% 16.1%

1998 38.1% 45.3% 16.6%

2001 33.4% 51.0% 15.6%

2004 34.3% 50.3% 15.3%

2007 34.6% 50.5% 15.0%

Financial Wealth

Top 1 percent Next 19 percent Bottom 80 percent

1983 42.9% 48.4% 8.7%

1989 46.9% 46.5% 6.6%

1992 45.6% 46.7% 7.7%

1995 47.2% 45.9% 7.0%

1998 47.3% 43.6% 9.1%

2001 39.7% 51.5% 8.7%

2004 42.2% 50.3% 7.5%

2007 42.7% 50.3% 7.0%

I'm satisfied my riches are safely stored in the kingdom of heaven where rust nor moth can corrupt, but I'm happy if you've been disciplined enough to get better than the average.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

Well Lazarus I hear your argument, but as Bonnie says, what than would you put in its place? I agree nothing or no system seems to work and that's, in my opinion, because of greed. So instead of calling the system we have now in the USofA capitolism maybe we should call it greedism. Olgers example is pretty much a perfect example of what it should be, but unfortunately olger that's not the way most things are working right now. Greed has taken over almost every aspect of America, there is no denying that. Obviously the system that God setup with Israel was that perfect system, but even that didn't work out, did it! That's because greedism worked its way into that. As far as Robert's idea, its unrealistic, it will never happen here on earth. That doesn't mean we can't strive for the best. Church and state will never be a good thing, because without God it will fall apart. things will change when Jesus sets up his Kingdom, until than we have to just do our best.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

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God's Government, which isn't based on self-seeking, self-love, love of money and gain. Competition comes from Lucifer, not God.

" Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it."1 Corinthians 9:22 NKJV

God blesses!

[bonnie]

Not to be contrary, Bonnie, but statistically speaking,

http://www2.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/

Table 1: Distribution of net worth and financial wealth in the United States, 1983-2007

Total Net Worth

Top 1 percent Next 19 percent Bottom 80 percent

1983 33.8% 47.5% 18.7%

1989 37.4% 46.2% 16.5%

1992 37.2% 46.6% 16.2%

1995 38.5% 45.4% 16.1%

1998 38.1% 45.3% 16.6%

2001 33.4% 51.0% 15.6%

2004 34.3% 50.3% 15.3%

2007 34.6% 50.5% 15.0%

Financial Wealth

Top 1 percent Next 19 percent Bottom 80 percent

1983 42.9% 48.4% 8.7%

1989 46.9% 46.5% 6.6%

1992 45.6% 46.7% 7.7%

1995 47.2% 45.9% 7.0%

1998 47.3% 43.6% 9.1%

2001 39.7% 51.5% 8.7%

2004 42.2% 50.3% 7.5%

2007 42.7% 50.3% 7.0%

There is not a static amount of dollars.What those in the top percentage obtain does not stop me from succeeding,nor does it cause me to fail.John Doe,by becoming rich has not siphoned off that much money out of the economy,depriving others from doing same.

I was perfectly free to expand and take more of those dollars if I chose to.Wall Street and the evil bankers did not influence my success or failure one whit.

My brother,without a high school diploma built a extremely successful business.He is not mega wealthy,but he passed the millionaire mark sometime back.The money others obtained/earned did not impact his ability to do so. Those in the lower percentage are not held back because someone else has obtained more

[LifeHiscost]

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Those in the lower percentage are not held back because someone else has obtained more

I'm of the opinion even Bernie Madoff might disagree with you. And the fact that his son committed suicide says quite a bit about how much tragedy his wealth practices caused others.

OTOH, you are right in that everyone has the right to use the same means to become wealthy. And I'm supposing Bernie worked diligently, many hours daily to get where he ended up.

God blesses!

[bonnie]

I'm of the opinion even Bernie Madoff might disagree with you. And the fact that his son committed suicide says quite a bit about how much tragedy his wealth practices caused others.

[bonnie]

I'm satisfied my riches are safely stored in the kingdom of heaven where rust nor moth can corrupt, but I'm happy if you've been disciplined enough to get better than the average. I'm satisfied my riches are safely stored in the kingdom of heaven where rust nor moth can corrupt, but I'm happy if you've been disciplined enough to get better than the average.[/quote

There are those putting forth minimal or average effort and use as the excuse they are not storing up riches on earth Somehow it seems to make them feel more righteous.

OTOH,my siblings and I were raised with Ecc 9:10

"Whatever your hand finds to do,do it with all the might,for there is no work,device,knowledge or wisdom beyond the grave"

My parents felt if you were not going to give your best,whether paid or not you were cheating those you were involved with.

In most cases doing that almost always leads to better than average.

Better than average is not a sin.Nor does it mean what you gain is depriving another of what is rightfully theirs.

Does not mean you believe what you gain can be taken to heaven or that riches is the focus of your life.

That is a common dismissal by some

[Guest]

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Those in the lower percentage are not held back because someone else has obtained more

I'm of the opinion even Bernie Madoff might disagree with you. And the fact that his son committed suicide says quite a bit about how much tragedy his wealth practices caused others.

God blesses!

I guess you could say that I am in that lower percentile, comparatively speaking. And nothing Bernie Madoff did can hold me back from trying to better myself through hard work. It doesn't matter how rich other people are, it doesn't stop me or even slow me down in any way, from doing what I just said.

I don't see the connection at all that some try to make, saying that people who are able to create wealth, somehow hurts me. The only way it can effect me, is if I allow myself to become envious. Envy will make you do and say stupid things.

Not only that, it's a sin.

Just look at the so called "Occupy Wall Street" people. That's all that is, is envy plain and simple. They say: "You have it, we want it. And we're going to take it" They would empower the Gov't to take what another man has worked for.

They're to sorry to go and work for it themselves, they want to take what you and I have. And they are not trying to build themselves up, or better themselves in any way. They just want to pull everybody else down to their level, and have everybody be poor. How stupid can you get?

Being wealthy is not a sin, like Robert seems to think. Look at Job. Super wealthy, and it was God who made him that way. TWICE!!! Look at David, and Solomon. SUPER RICH!! And God made them that way. If being rich is a sin, then God did them a great disservice.

Ecc 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.

Deu 8:18 But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth...

[LifeHiscost]

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Super wealthy, and it was God who made him that way. TWICE!!! Look at David, and Solomon. SUPER RICH!! And God made them that way. If being rich is a sin, then God did them a great disservice.

Nevertheless, it is selfishness and unbelief that has destroyed and is destroying the infrastructure of the U.S. It is my contention that those who spend the major portion of their lives in order to find a better world down here, will be given this world as their reward.

The collapse of capitalism is removing the myth that there is a man made philosophy that can take the place of Jesus' saving grace. Observing the lives of those suggested as receiving riches as a direct act of God, therefor revealing that God did a disservice to them, does not take into account that it was in spite of their failures that they were allowed to reach the world's estimation of success in wealth. Reading how they spent the last years of their lives indicates the fallacy that riches are a result of a virtuous life.

"Let them no longer fool themselves by trusting in empty riches,

for emptiness will be their only reward."

Job 15:31 NLT

OTOH, what does make sense to me, "I'd rather be miserably rich than miserably poor". And also I have the best of both worlds, if this world has a best. That is, despite being happier than many others I am also richer than approximately 90% of the rest of the earth's population.

And yet I am disturbed, in my "lazy" (as my mother refers to it) attitude, I have a friend in Africa who has an education that has made him fluent in at least three languages that I am aware of, I'm sure at least partly because of his disciplined work ethic, and yet he is dependent on an american's generosity, who has only at the most, one quarter the education but by God's grace, is privileged to ensure he is able to provide food for himself and family for tomorrow.

At least some Americans believe their abundance shared, is a result of God's purpose for those who have more than they need. If all the world who have felt inclined, as some do, that they are their brother's keeper, we wouldn't have segments of our society who felt they had to take from others in order to get their fair share.

"Freely you have received, freely give".

"...for the Lord is your security.

He will keep your foot from being caught in a trap.

Do not withhold good from those who deserve it

when it’s in your power to help them.

If you can help your neighbor now, don’t say,

“Come back tomorrow, and then I’ll help you.”"

Proverbs 3:26-28 NLT

God blesses!

[bonnie]

Nevertheless, it is selfishness and unbelief that has destroyed and is destroying the infrastructure of the U.S. It is my contention that those who spend the major portion of their lives in order to find a better world down here, will be given this world as their reward.

The collapse of capitalism is removing the myth that there is a man made philosophy that can take the place of Jesus' saving grace.

[Robert]

Everything to one degree or another in business is competition. That is not sin,that is the way it has to be in this world.

Competition does not foster love for one another, it promotes defeating the other, just like in a war.

Where is the competition is the following EGW statements:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own [wealth], but another's wealth." [DA 439]

Keep in mind, as I have stated many times, that "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Again, Everything that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

[Robert]

Being wealthy is not a sin, like Robert seems to think. Look at Job. Super wealthy, and it was God who made him that way. TWICE!!! Look at David, and Solomon. SUPER RICH!! And God made them that way. If being rich is a sin, then God did them a great disservice.

No, God didn't make them wealthy. God blessed them because they placed their faith in Him. What they did with those blessing was totally up to them.

[Robert]

Ecc 5:19 Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth...

[bonnie]

No doubt there are some Bible verses hard to understand. Taken alone this verse presents problems:

[bonnie]

Keep in mind, as I have stated many times, that "Jesus...thought not, planned not, lived not, for himself."

Keep in mind we are not Christ. We are commanded to care for our families.

Again, Everything that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

Without taking care of ourselves first we are not much good to anyone else.

You seem to obsess over competition.Is this the way you live your life?Getting up every morning searching for those you can outdo and beat?Or is it a excuse for doing only the minimum so as not to appear to compete and have "self love"

Living a life of self induced poverty or a mediocre life,while capable of much more is as much of a sin as the pursuit of wealth and achievement simply for what you can accumulate. A little like "Thank You God,I am not like those other guys"

Christ had/has to be completely impartial.Christ could not marry/have children.That means you put your spouse first before the spouse of another,Christ could not be Christ and honor the marriage commitment. He could not have children for same reason.He could not come to save all and favor one over another.Neither you nor I can save anyone,least of all ourselves.We can however do the best with what we have been given.You don't believe we should do that apparently as that is competitive and self love. God does not agree with you.

As the parable of the talents indicates.

Remember the bible does not say to Love your neighbor and hate yourself.It does not say to love the neighbor man/woman as you do your spouse.It does not say to do as little as possible to prove you are placing your riches in heaven.

It does not say to avoid commerce/capitalism.

[bonnie]

You cannot live in this world without competing to one degree or another.You can compete to cut the other guys throat and that seems to be what you obsess over.You seem to assume there is a fixed number of clients/consumers for each product or service.When I had my cleaning service I competed in one sense,that of offering a service many others did. I did not succeed by "your" obsessive" desire to take from anyone else what was rightfully theirs or cut the throat of someone else.There was not a fixed number of clients and the consumer did some homework and made a choice as to who to hire.

I did not charge the price I did based on what anyone else was charging.I did not take from others by charging less and undermining them.Most people I know don't operate their business practice the way it appears you might.

In fact I was higher priced than the majority.I had worked for others and listened to the clients. A large cleaning service could not provide what I did,and there was a need and room for both.

I have a home based business now.In one form or another many produce the same items I do. In one sense we all compete with one another,but not quite in your "self centered description.Yes, all of us intend to make money. How we obtain that is what makes it right or wrong.Not the making of the money itself.

We produce,put it out there and the consumer decides. Generally price is at the bottom of the list for making their decision. What one loyal buyer sees in mine,another may not have any interest in.

Read Proverbs 10:10-31 Always has seemed a pretty good balance to me.Doesn't say anything resembling what you have said

Willingly works with her hands....provides for her household(there we have self love again}provides for her maidservants....Considers a field and buys it,from her profits she plants a vineyard{evil capitalism)She perceives

that her merchandise is good(competition again)She extends her hand to the poor,reaches out to the needy....Her household is clothed in scarlet...She makes tapestries for herself..Her clothing is fine linen and purple,what a self-centered,self seeking example we have been given by a description of a wise woman.She makes linen garments and sells them(evil capitalism at work again and even being praised)even supplies sashes for those evil merchants.She is kind and watches over her household.

What a contrast to the "gospel you promote"

Think I will stick with One a lot wiser and far more balanced than you

[Robert]

You cannot live in this world without competing to one degree or another.

Then you can't help but sin, right?

[Robert]

Without taking care of ourselves first we are not much good to anyone else.

[Robert]

Capitalism creates a minority who are free to suppress the freedom of choice of everyone else. It's called a plutocracy! Fox News is the rich man's network.

[bonnie]

Capitalism creates a minority who are free to suppress the freedom of choice of everyone else. It's called a plutocracy! Fox News is the rich man's network.

Bull Feathers.The minority has never suppressed my freedom of choice.Nice excuse for those that choose to fail.

I know a lot of people that listen/watch Fox News and not one of them is rich.

Sounds like you have exchanged what you view as the sins of capitalism for the sins of envy/greed and bitterness.

Whatever works for you

[bonnie]

That's iniquity! Me first, then I'll give you my crumbs.

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Remember the bible does not say to Love your neighbor and hate yourself.

When God gives example after example that contradicts the "gospel of Robert,guess who I will believe?

Here's what Paul states:

The poorest people can be and are guilty of all of the above

You are the one obsessed with what you see as envy by others etc

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How are you to agape? Ellen White states, "You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth."

Wait a minute.Doesn't it also say "We will build and another will not inhabit? How can that be,aren't we to be building for someone else by your view?

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You and I are sinners. We can brag we keep the commandments...we can brag we are SDA, but all that means nothing without "agape". Why? Because "agape" is the ingredient it takes to fulfill the law. Self-love fulfills the law of sin.

Who is bragging about keeping the commandments and being SDA.Who is talking about achievement/success as fulfilling the law?

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Besides there is only one command in the phrase "you shall love your neighbor as yourself." There's no command to love self. You are born bent to yourself. You are born in love with self. Capitalism works best in this world because it is constructed on the love of self.

Read the scripture definition of the "wise woman" again.Read the parable of the talents a few more times.Combine that with the rest and maybe you would not have such a narrow,envious,bitter viewpoint.

How much of the above do you do? Do you live strictly for others? Get by on the barest of necessities? Have you traded in your pillow for a rock yet?

Or do you excuse yourself by saying that all are sinners and cannot keep the whole law perfectly so what the heck,might as well throw it all out and simply say "I believe" and live as you choose.

Again,where you try to correct what God has said I should do,he wants me to enjoy,you will lose everytime

[olger]

Occupy would like to invent a process where they are enriched by non-production, in contrast to the book of Proverbs.

[bonnie]

Occupy would like to invent a process where they are enriched by non-production, in contrast to the book of Proverbs.

Wait a minute,isn't that self seeking,self centered behavior?