Keeping the Sabbath

[BibleOnly]

OK, I guess I'll start with an easy one. Why should Christians keep the Old Testament Sabbath ? Is there any record of the New Testament church doing this ? Did Jesus ever tell the church to do this ? Did Paul ?

[Bert]

OK, I guess I'll start with an easy one. Why should Christians keep the Old Testament Sabbath ? Is there any record of the New Testament church doing this ? Did Jesus ever tell the church to do this ? Did Paul ?

The Sabbath is incorporated into the Ten Commandments as the fourth commandment. So I would answer your question as to why should we keep the Old Testament Sabbath in this way...with a question. Do you think it is OK now to kill or steal, or commit adultery since it is part of the Old Testament?

In the first place, the Sabbath was made for man at creation, for 'God rested from His work on the seventh day and hallowed it'. This was 2300 years or so before the Jewish nation was formed.

In the second place, God told the Israelites to gather manna in double portion on Friday to last over the Sabbath, and that was before the Ten Commandments were given at Mt Sinai.

In the third place, Christ kept the Sabbath during His time on earth. Luke 4:16; John 15:10.

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man (Mark 2:27).

The seventh day is the Lord's day (See Revelation 1:10; Mark 2:28; Isaiah 58:13; Exodus 20:10)

The apostles kept the Sabbath (see Acts 13:27; 13:42,44; Acts 15:21; Acts 17:2,3)

The Sabbath is mentioned in the New Testament fifty-nine times.

The Sabbath will be kept in heaven. (Isa. 66:23)

I hope this explains the validity of the Sabbath that is still in effect today.

[BibleOnly]

OK, I guess I'll start with an easy one. Why should Christians keep the Old Testament Sabbath ? Is there any record of the New Testament church doing this ? Did Jesus ever tell the church to do this ? Did Paul ?

[Lysimachus]

There are numerous mandates in the Old Testament that do not require repetition in the New in order to understand that it has already been established in the old to be eternal.

Incest, for example, is one. Nowhere does it repeat in the New that incest is wrong, but it clearly is wrong based on the Old Testament.

Also, you will not find a single commandment in the New repeating the 3rd commandment where it specifically states "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain". Yet, it is still implied based on various phrases from Christ and the apostles.

Likewise, the same is with the Sabbath. Consistency demands that the if the other 9 are in force, so is the 4th. God was more silent on the 4th in the New because He knew that in the end, it would be a test for many people. Had there been a clear command "Remember the Sabbath Day...the Seventh day is the Sabbath" in the New Testament, it would have been impossible for the man of sin to exercise his deceptions in changing and abrogating the Sabbath.

Thus God said only so much, but left enough manipulating room so that the prophecies could be fulfilled, and it would leave just enough information to test the hearts of believers---to see if they really and truly hungered for truth and righteousness.

There are enough rays of light that reveal that the Sabbath in the New Testament is binding. This subject has been rehashed over so many times, many of us in this forum who know well how to refute such allegations against the Sabbath feel a bit of a lazy haze over us with lack of motivation to take out time to repeat ourselves.

[BibleOnly]

SD:

No fine; some of these describe the OLD and the NEW Testament Sabbath.

Note, I don't say, 'Sabbaths'; there is only ONE 'Sabbath DAY', “the day The SEVENTH Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD”.

BUT, the 'SUBSTANCE' of both the Old and the New Testament Sabbath, is JESUS CHRIST.

HE, is the CORE difference between the Old Testament Sabbath and the New Testament Sabbath.

Now that may sound like an anomaly; but it isn't.

There are Jews – ethnic un-believing Jews – and there are pretending Jews – non-Jews, CHRISTIANS, like Revelation's 'Nicolaitans' who claim they are Jews but ARE not Jews— all claim THEY KEEP THE SABBATH ...

Are they really 'keeping' the Sabbath of the NEW and EVERLASTING Covenant of GRACE? In other words, the TRUE CHRISTIAN Sabbath?

It is clearly IMPOSSIBLE.

Those thus PRETENDING are LEGALISTS, claiming they 'keep the Sabbath'.

The plainest way to put the question of WHICH Sabbath one believes and keeps, is answered by texts like Mark 2:27,28 and Hebrews 4:4,8-10, which are all summed up in ONE WORD from Colossians 2:12-19 : “CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE”

IS CHRIST THE SUBSTANCE not only of one's 'keeping of the Sabbath', but OF THE SABBATH DAY ITSELF regardless its ‘keeping’ by true believers or unbelievers?

So, if there's one Sabbath only, that has to be the one Paul says not to be judged by ? I'm sorry, I'm not sure I follow what point you're trying to make ?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

SD:

When you press the reply button and the window for your reply appears, right above are blocks with 'B', 'I' and 'U' which mean BOLD, INDENTED or UNDERLINED.

[/quote']

Thanks, I can see how to add the tag now, too. It's just 'b', not 'bold'

[BibleOnly]

There are numerous mandates in the Old Testament that do not require repetition in the New in order to understand that it has already been established in the old to be eternal.

Incest, for example, is one. Nowhere does it repeat in the New that incest is wrong, but it clearly is wrong based on the Old Testament.

[Lysimachus]

BibleOnly,

If you're interested in hearing refutations to the strongest arguments used against Sabbatarianism, I invite you to to listen the following 5-part radio show series:

1. 85 Stupid Questions Presented to Sabbatarians - Part 1

2. 85 Stupid Questions Presented to Sabbatarians - Part 2

3. 85 Stupid Questions Presented to Sabbatarians - Part 3

4. 85 Stupid Questions Presented to Sabbatarians - Part 4

5. 85 Stupid Questions Presented to Sabbatarians - Part 5

(Audios should load in streaming-audio M3U files--if they don't load, let me know)

Keep in mind that these men come from a rough Missourian background, so they can be a little rough in their language. While I do not endorse some of their sharp vocal thrusts, I invite the listener to look past that and focus on the arguments themselves, as they stand on their own merits. This is by far the most thorough radio/audio refutation that has ever been produced against anti-Sabbatarianism.

And, if you're interested in learning and reading of my best arguments in defense of the Sabbath, feel free to read the following articles:

Misunderstandings on The Nature of the Covenants (Part 1)

Misunderstandings on The Nature of the Covenants (Part 2)

The Three Principles of the Covenants

The "Sabbath-Rest" Issue of Hebrews 4

Like I said, we've been over ALL this before--with the best "experts" against Sabbath keeping. A thousand times over. I've posted a total of at least of 2,000+ posts on just the Sabbath alone in the past during the last 15 years of my life. In the end, the critics have no leg to stand on.

So if you're interested, you are free to dig up old material. But do not expect us to rehash old arguments and wear out our fingers for nothing. If you're interested in learning why the Sabbath is important, you can be sure you will find the answers on the net---that is, if you are really honest.

Otherwise, you're only posting this information because you are here to pick a fight and try to prove why you are right and we are wrong.

[BibleOnly]

I hate to double post, but I admit to being a little flabbergasted at the claim that God hides the Gospel so that people will not be saved, for lack of ability to get clear instruction from the Bible. If you consider verses like Paul telling the church not to be judged according to the Sabbath, and that we are free to keep certain days or to regard every day the same, and verses like this:

Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

then we have to move beyond the Bible being vague, to it being deliberately unclear. I know this verse also does not tell them not to kill, and therefore does not list the 10 commandments, but the Sabbath is different because the other commandments are all about things to avoid, the Sabbath is something one has to actively do. Given that the church grew from initially just being Jews, it seems very odd that when asked what the Greeks needed to keep of the Old Law, the Sabbath would not be mentioned, if Paul was answering honestly and the SDA is correct in it's view. It is also clear that this was asked because it was understood that aspects of the old law had changed, and yet, whenever the Bible talks about this, it never indicates that the Sabbath had to be kept.

Can I ask, is this SDA doctrine or just your belief ? If someone in the SDA has a Bible question, are they answered completely, or vaguely to leave room for them to get confused and leave ? Because you're suggesting that Paul took the time to write letters to instruct the churches, but was vague because God wanted to encourage sin, that is what I take from you saying:

Quote:

Had there been a clear command "Remember the Sabbath Day...the Seventh day is the Sabbath" in the New Testament, it would have been impossible for the man of sin to exercise his deceptions in changing and abrogating the Sabbath.

I also note the loaded language - 'the man of sin' 'excercise his deceptions'. In asking this, am I 'the man of sin' ? Am I being deliberately deceptive in your view, for asking questions and using the Bible as my source of absolute truth ?

[BibleOnly]

Question - if I read these articles, and I disagree with them, with whom can I discuss it ? If I ask questions about what they say here, will I be 'here to pick a fight' ? Is it a tenant of the SDA that people must blindly obey and not read their bibles or ask questions ? Why are you here, if you're not willing to answer my questions ? If you don't want to talk, why are you paying money to post here ?

[BibleOnly]

OK, I'm not really up for listening to long radio shows ( are there transcriptions I can read ?), but I read the articles.

Misunderstandings on The Nature of the Covenants (Part 1)

Misunderstandings on The Nature of the Covenants (Part 2)

I don't think the 10 commandments have been done away with. I think they've been fulfilled. So, these articles argued with a point I do not make.

The Three Principles of the Covenants

Luke 23 was after Jesus died, but before the church started. The Holy Spirit was first given in Acts 2. Jesus had to rise from the dead in order for the Spirit to be given, and the Spirit had to be given for the church to start. It stands to reason that people didn't see Jesus die, and then decide they had the new covenant, until they saw Him risen, they assumed His ministry had ended in disaster, and they would quite obviously have continued to keep the customs they had always kept, this does not even remotely reflect on if Jesus' sacrifice had paid the price to fulfil the law ( although I contend He had to rise and even then it didn't matter to the individuals until the church was started, i.e., the Spirit was given ).

"Obviously Jesus was trying to demonstrate that He was an example of what truly resting on the Sabbath meant--it was meant to be a "delight" as described in Isaiah 58:13,14, not according to the rigorous and burdensome rules that were being imposed on the Sabbath by the Jewish Pharisees."

So, there are no burdens placed on SDA members on the Sabbath ? You're allowed to go shopping ? You're allowed to cook ? You're allowed to chop wood and light a fire ? Read a newspaper ? Watch the news ? If this is all true, then I guess I've been misled as to how the SDA impliments the sabbath. If not, then I don't really understand the difference between the SDA and the pharisees.

The 'Sabbath-Rest' issue in Hebrews

This one is interesting because it avoids the whole point made in these verses:

Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Hbr 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.

Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

So, this is talking about the sabbath, the seventh day

Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.

In this verse, a certain day is set apart. It is not the Sabbath, but, 'today'.

Hbr 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.

Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God [did] from his.

Hbr 4:11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

This is not talking about 'labouring' to have a rest every Saturday. It's talking about the complete rest that happens every day for a Christian. Hence 'today' is the day we need to work to rest in God, not just on a certain day.

"Someone might suggest that after we enter into spiritual rest there would be no need to observe the memorial of it by keeping the Sabbath physically. But if that were true, we would have to also stop practicing water baptism. Immersion memorializes our death to the old man of sin. We experience that conversion BEFORE entering the water to be baptized. If the physical observance is unnecessary just because we have had the spiritual symbolism fulfilled in us, then we should abandon the physical custom. "

This is a meaningless word game. It does not follow. Some people are converted prior to baptism, and some after. But, the act of baptism is the show of a good conscience towards God, either way. It is a symbol that only came in to being in the New Testament. Unlike the Sabbath, the New Testament is full of instruction for us to observe baptism of converts. It would be more convincing if this article argued from scripture and not just from human logic. A logic chain often sounds impressive, but only because you have to concentrate to work out where the flaw is. In this case, it's quite simply that Jesus commanded baptism, Paul commands baptism, no NT scripture tells us to keep the Sabbath. We don't baptise because 'physical observance is necessary', we baptise because doing what the Bible says is necessary.

None of these articles addressed any of the scriptures I pointed out, or any of the questions I raised. Is anyone here able to explain these verses and these points to me, in their own words, in a manner that allows me to discuss it and come to understand the SDA position ?

[Q.E.D.]

OK, I guess I'll start with an easy one. Why should Christians keep the Old Testament Sabbath?

What is your definition of the Old Testament? Book, Chapter and Verse please.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

OK, I guess I'll start with an easy one. Why should Christians keep the Old Testament Sabbath?

What is your definition of the Old Testament? Book, Chapter and Verse please.

Everything before Acts chapter 2. Jesus had to die in order to give the Holy Spirit, that is why He came. The Spirit was given in Acts chapter 2. Therefore, everything before Acts 2, is the Old Testament, and the life of Jesus, lived under the Old Testament Law so He could be a perfect sacrifice for us.

However, I would happily reword the question to 'why should we keep the Sabbath in the way that was intended by the fourth commandment' ?

[wayfinder]

John 20:22 NAS

And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

This is when Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His disciples.

As far as "Old Testiment" "New Testiment", this was done by men when the canon was put together.

Matthew 5:18 NAS

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Since we continue to have heaven and earth, we continue to have the Law.

Deuteronomy 5

12 'Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. 13'Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you, so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.

Revelation 14:12 NAS

Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

God is eternal, and He has shown us the way into His eternity. An integral part of this way is obedience to His commandments. Adam and Eve lost their access to the Tree of Life because of their disobedience. We are given access to the Tree of Life through our obedience to God.

Revelation 12:17 NAS

So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

John 14:21 NAS

"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

Matthew 19

16 And someone came to Him and said, "Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life ?" 17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."18 Then he said to Him, "Which ones? "And Jesus said, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS;19 HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

Keeping the commandments is not the only requirement, as the rich young ruler found out, we must also learn what Jesus taught and believe and live according to His word, and we become sons of God when we keep His commandments and have the testimony of Jesus.

[BibleOnly]

John 20:22 NAS

And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.

This is when Jesus gave the Holy Spirit to His disciples.

As far as "Old Testiment" "New Testiment", this was done by men when the canon was put together.

[Woody]

I can't understand why a Christian would not honor the Sabbath whether it is required or not.

I will give you that the Sabbath was given to us before sin entered the world - but that should not stop us from honoring the God of Creation.

[phkrause]

I can't understand why a Christian would not honor the Sabbath whether it is required or not.

I will give you that the Sabbath was given to us before sin entered the world - but that should not stop us from honoring the God of Creation.

Excellent post Woody. Makes absolute sense. I mean whats the meaning of worshiping on any other day of the week? What happen on those days?

[Woody]

Yes pk. Some mistakenly use the excuse that "Oh we don't want to be legalistic". But honoring God is not being legalistic. We are not saved by honoring God. We are saved by the honor that God gave to us with the sacrifice of His Son. But those who accept this honor will also honor HIM. Making laws against honoring God is certainly not Christian.

[Woody]

I think I may have shared this before - but if it were not for the Sabbath - I would no longer be a Christian for it centers me back to Christ each week no matter how many trials life brings.

So for me personally - I must - I have to honor the Sabbath in order to keep my relationship with God clean and on track.

[BibleOnly]

I can't understand why a Christian would not honor the Sabbath whether it is required or not.

I will give you that the Sabbath was given to us before sin entered the world - but that should not stop us from honoring the God of Creation.

Well, are you circumcised ? Do you keep the food laws ? Do you require all in your church to do these things ? Paul said if you want to keep one aspect of the law, you have to keep it all. If you choose to live under the law, you can't pick and choose.

Having said that, Paul said that you're welcome to esteem one day above another, so long as you accept that I regard each day as the same. If that is your position, then I have no objection to your keeping the Sabbath. But, if you're saying that God requires me to, then I disagree, and so does Paul.

[BibleOnly]

I think I may have shared this before - but if it were not for the Sabbath - I would no longer be a Christian for it centers me back to Christ each week no matter how many trials life brings.

So for me personally - I must - I have to honor the Sabbath in order to keep my relationship with God clean and on track.

Why could you not do this on a different day ? Why can't you do it every day ? Do Seventh Day Adventists have communion every week ? I read somewhere they do it four times a year, yet 1 Cor makes clear that it's communion where we 'center' ourselves, and consider corrections we need to make in the way we are living.

[Woody]

Quote:

Why can't you do it every day ?

Good Question. If it works for you then I see no problem with doing it each day. Personally - I've not been able to accomplish that. Perhaps you are stronger than I. ANd if you are then I see no problem with doing it each day.

Perhaps you have received a big inheiritance and don't have anything more to do than to honor God each day. That is cool. But scripture encourages us to work 6 days a week. I would encourage volunteer work . Helping others 6 days a week and then recharging your batteries on the 7th day as God has commanded.

[phkrause]

Yes pk. Some mistakenly use the excuse that "Oh we don't want to be legalistic". But honoring God is not being legalistic. We are not saved by honoring God. We are saved by the honor that God gave to us with the sacrifice of His Son. But those who accept this honor will also honor HIM. Making laws against honoring God is certainly not Christian.

[phkrause]

I think I may have shared this before - but if it were not for the Sabbath - I would no longer be a Christian for it centers me back to Christ each week no matter how many trials life brings.

So for me personally - I must - I have to honor the Sabbath in order to keep my relationship with God clean and on track.

[BibleOnly]

Quote:

Why can't you do it every day ?

Good Question. If it works for you then I see no problem with doing it each day. Personally - I've not been able to accomplish that. Perhaps you are stronger than I. ANd if you are then I see no problem with doing it each day.

Perhaps you have received a big inheiritance and don't have anything more to do than to honor God each day. That is cool. But scripture encourages us to work 6 days a week. I would encourage volunteer work . Helping others 6 days a week and then recharging your batteries on the 7th day as God has commanded.

I have a job. Why does it take a whole day to honour God ? Why does it mean not working at all ?

Col 3:23 And whatsoever ye do, do [it] heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

I honour God by being a hard worker at work, so that I cannot be spoken ill of, bar for the Gospel's sake.

Jud 1:20 ¶ But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,

Jud 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.

I recharge by praying in the Holy Spirit, which builds me up in the faith and keeps me in God's love. Then I consider God in everything I do ( well, I try to, I am not claiming perfection here ). That is how I honour God every day.