Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[rodgertutt]

Rodger, are you the one who used to advertise in Newspapers across Canada about Hell Fire not being forever?

Just the two largest Toronto newspapers Stan, along with my phone number. I sent out hundreds of packets of UR literature in response, and I spent many hours talking with people on the phone.

But when I got a computer I switched to posting on forums instead.

Ray Prinzing is my earthly hero and mentor.

All of his writings can be Googled up by typing in his name.

His good friends, J. Preston Eby, and Canadian George Hawtin, have also been a big help to me. The writings of Preston and George can also be Googled up by typing in their name. All three of them frequently quoted each other in their writings.

[rodgertutt]

Please understand.... people do not read when people copy and paste copius text.

Ya, I got the feeling by the responses that most ANers were not reading what dialoguewithus and I have been posting.

But we thank you for letting us have our say and not banning us which is what I was expecting you to do to us.

[dialoguewithus]

1 Cor. 15:24, interlinear: http://interlinearbible.org/1_corinthians/15-24.htm

Then the end (tel’os), when He [Christ] shall have given up the kingdom to Him Who [is] God and Father; when He shall have annulled all rule and all authority and power.

tel’os – FINISH, the consummation of action or time. Other examples of this word occur in Lk. 22:37; 2 Cor. 3:13; Ro. 6:21, 22. In the case of 1 Cor. 15:24, the consummation refers to vivification (vs. 23), and/or to the annulment of all rule and all authority and power. Once Christ has annulled all rule, authority, and power, He will subject Himself to His Father, that God may be All in all (vs. 28). By subjecting Himself to His Father, Christ gives up the kingdom to Him. When will this transfer occur? Please notice Rev. 22:1. Here, Christ and God still share the throne. It is also apparent that all rule and authority will not yet have been annulled (Rev. 21:24). 1 Cor. 15:25, 26: “For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death.” When will all Christ’s enemies be placed under His feet? Let’s notice Rev. 20:10: “[The Adversary, the wild beast, and the false prophet] shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons.” The eons of the eons, like the Holies of Holies, are the greatest of the eons: the millennium and the New Jerusalem eon. Therefore, Christ will still be reigning on the New Earth, as will other kings, and Satan will still be Christ’s enemy. Notice also that the last enemy to be abolished is death. Nevertheless, we read in Rev. 21:8, concerning the vessels of indignation, that “their part is in the lake burning with fire and sulphur, which is the second death.” They will be dead, therefore death will not yet have been abolished. Remember 1 Cor. 15:22: “For even as, in Adam (through him as an instrument), all are dying, thus also (in like fashion), in Christ (through Him as an Instrument), shall all be vivified. 1 Cor. 15:20-28 describes events which must take place after the New Jerusalem eon.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted By: dialoguewithus

The Holy Places and the Eons

-Adapted from All in all, by A. E. Knoch

Before the Eons

First Eon- Outside the Camp

Disruption- Gen. 1:2, CLV: “Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant…”

Second Eon- The Camp

The Deluge

Third (and present) Eon- The Court, with the Altar of Sacrifice

Day of Indignation

Fourth Eon (lasting a little over 1,000 years)- The Holy

The Judgment (4th and 5th eons- Eons of the Eons- Holies of the Holies)

Fifth Eon (The eon of the eons/ The eon of the eon/ New Jerusalem eon)- The Holy of Holies

The Consummation

After the Eons

Where did he make up this stuff from?

Let reason prevail.

Stan, both Philip Scranton and Louis Abbott see the same idea in the Bible as A.E. Knoch

by PHILIP SCRANTON

"God is working all things after the counsel of His will and according to His perfect schedule. But the improper translation of "for the ages of the ages" ignores the purpose and climax of history. The holies of the holies (plural/plural) were the two inner confines of the tabernacle. (1Kings 8:6 literal translation instead of the most holy place.) They were more holy than the outer court and the camp and all the places outside the camp. In like manner, the ages of the ages are the two greatest ages of history because of what will transpire during their time. It does not cast the smallest shadow on the brilliance of God's glory to say that glory be attributed to Him during the climatic eons when His purpose will be realized by all and His glory seen more clearly than ever before."

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott

As mentioned previously, there are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33 (LXX), tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In IKings 8:6 (LXX) we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "the eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle.

While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies." Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons.

As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5.

Quoted from AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott

[dialoguewithus]

You ascend on high, You capture captivity, You apportion gifts among mankind, And also for the stubborn, to tabernacle with Yah Elohim. Ps. 68:18.

Dan. 2:44, 35

In their days, that is, of these kings, the Eloah of the heavens will set up a kingdom that for the eons shall not come to harm. His kingdom shall not be left to another people. It will pulverize and terminate all these kingdoms, and it shall be confirmed for the eons.

Then pulverized, as one, are the iron, the clay, the copper, the silver, and the gold, and they are as chaff from summer threshing sites, and the wind lifts them up, and no place at all is found for them. And the stone that collides with the image becomes a vast mountain range, and fills all the earth. (Matt. 5:5)

Dan. 7:18, 27

Yet the saints of the supremacies shall receive the kingdom and they will safeguard the kingdom unto the eon, even unto the eon of the eons.

And the kingdom and the jurisdiction and the majesty of the kingdom under the entire heavens will be granted to the people of the saints of the supremacies. Their kingdom is an eonian kingdom, and all other authorities shall serve and hearken to them.

Psalm 2:

8 Ask of Me, And I will give the nations as Your allotment, And as Your holding, the limits of the earth. 9 You shall smash them with a club of iron; Like a vessel of a potter, You shall shatter them. 10 And now, O kings, be intelligent; Be admonished, all judges of the earth; 11 Serve Yahweh with fear, And exult with quivering. 12 Bear admonition lest He should be angry, And you should perish in the way, For His anger shall consume speedily. Happy are all those taking refuge in Him.

Psalm 110:

1 {A Davidic Psalm} The averring of Yahweh to my Lord: Sit at My right Until I should set Your enemies as a stool for Your feet. 2 The rod of Your strength shall Yahweh send from Zion; Sway among Your enemies. 3 Your people shall be willing in the day of Your potent power; In holy effulgence from the womb of the dawn, You will have the dew of Your childhood. 4 Yahweh has sworn, and He shall not regret: You are a priest for the [millennial] eon According to the order of Melchizedek.

Our El is an El of grand salvation, And to Yahweh, my Lord, belong the exits from death. Ps. 68:20. There are three exits from death mentioned in 1 Cor. 15:20-28, one for each of mankind’s “classes”. The second class of vivification will rule over the nations, and reign in the heavens as well, and will be co-workers with Christ for the conversion of the many. (Rev. 2:27; 12:5; 19:15; Eph. 2:7; 1 Cor. 6:3) Christ will sit at God’s right hand until all His enemies become a footstool for His feet. (Acts 2:34, 35; Mk. 12:36; Rev. 22:1) Then, the third class of humanity will be vivified, and death will be abolished.

[John317]

...

My understanding of the important point is that God will eventually fit every individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil ....

You appear to be saying that sin was part of God's plan and a necessity to fulfill God's intentions for humanity. I don't believe this is what the Bible teaches. God is in no way responsible for evil or the Fall. Adam and Eve could have remained loyal to God, and Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels need not have fallen.

[John317]

Satan is not interested in being in heaven with Jesus, unless he is on a par level with Jesus. He isn't now, never was, and never will be. He knows that. And he's laughing at those who think he will be "saved." What a farce.

I agree, Pam. And glad to see you posting again!! :-)

[John317]

....Actually, "eons" and "eonian" NEVER refers to eternity.

Here are some examples of where "forever" means eternally or without end; there are many more:

Psalm 29:10

The Lord sits enthroned over the flood;

the Lord sits enthroned as king forever.

Psalm 45:6

Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.

The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;

Hebrews 1:8

But of the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

Psalm 90:2

Before the mountains were brought forth,

or ever you had formed the earth and the world,

from everlasting to everlasting you are God.

NOTE: the above is saying that God is eternal-- i.e., without either beginning or end. He has always existed and will always continue to exist.

Psalm 136:1

Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good,

for his steadfast love endures forever.

Psalm 146:6

who made heaven and earth,

the sea, and all that is in them,

who keeps faith forever;

Psalm 146:10

The Lord will reign forever,

your God, O Zion, to all generations.

Praise the Lord!

Romans 9:5

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

2 Cor. 11:31

The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying.

Galatians 1: 4,5

....God and Father, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

Philip. 4:20

To our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 1:23

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jude 1:25

to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.

Rev. 22:5

And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

[rodgertutt]

John3:17, neither the scriptures you quoted, nor any other scriptures, should have been translated "forever."

"Forever and Ever"--A Poor Translation

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter5.html

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"If the Greek words eis tous aionas ton aionon mean endless time, as translated in the KJV, 'forever and ever,' we have a contradiction in Scripture."

-Dr. William Barclay

"This view (Restitution of All) is so clearly Scriptural that the only surprise is that it has not been more definitely and widely held."

-Dr. A.T. Pierson

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There is no doubt that God has always existed, but the statement at Romans 16:26 speaks of Him as an eonian God. The Scriptures say He made the eons, so He existed before they were made, and He will exist after the eons have been concluded (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26). He is endless. To argue that "eonian God" makes the "eonian" unlimited time because God is unlimited is illogical. Isaiah 54:5, KJV, calls Him "the God of the whole earth." This does not preclude Him from also being the God of the entire universe. In the context of Romans 16:26, He is called the "eonian God," but He was God before the eons were made; He is God during all the eons, and in post-eonian times. In other words, just because the Scriptures refer to Him as the "God of the ages" does not preclude Him from being the God of eternity. The Scriptures declare Him the "God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob," and "the God of Israel." Does that mean He cannot therefore be the God of the gentiles, of the whole universe? Of course not!

As for the KJV translation, "forever and ever," there are some students of the Greek who admit that this is not a faithful translation of the Greek words found in the text. The Greek uses three distinct phrases, all of which are translated the same in the KJV.

Hebrews 1:8: ho thronos sou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of the eon." In both occurrences in this verse, the Greek word we translated "eon" appears in the singular.

Ephesians 3:21: auto hê doxa en tê ekklêsia kai en Christo Iêsou eis pasas tas geneas tou aionos ton aionon, "To Him be the glory in the ecclesia and in Christ Jesus for all the generations of the eon of the eons. Amen." Here the Greek word for eon is used twice. The first time it is in the singular; the second time it is in the plural.

Galatians 1:5: ho hê doxa eis tous aionas ton aionon, "To Whom be glory for the eons of the eons." Here the Greek word for eon appears twice in the plural.

Philippians 1:10 says (ASV margin), "so that ye may distinguish the things that differ." Since the words of God are inspired and are used precisely, to ignore the differences in these passages is to ignore what He is saying.

Hebrews 1:8 is a quotation from Psalm 45:6, LXX, where the Greek text says, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "into the eon of the eon,"-the singular form for eon in both occurrences. The preposition eis is translated "into" or "unto;" idiomatically, "for." Bagster's Analytical Greek Lexicon and Concordance defines it: "eis, into, to as far as, to the extent of."

Dr. E.W. Bullinger's Lexicon and Concordance says (p. 804), "eis, unto, when referring to time, denoting either the interval up to a certain point, during; or the point itself as the object or aim of some purpose, up to, for."

Dr. Nigel Turner, in his book, Grammatical Insights into the N.T., says (p. 91), "eis involves a movement for development toward a goal." If eis means as far as, to the extent of, or a movement or development toward a goal, then it cannot be used with words meaning endless or unlimited time.

Ephesians 3:21: eis pasas tas geneas tou aionos ton aionon, "for all the generations of the eon of the eons." KJV: "throughout all the ages, world without end." ASV margin: "unto all the generations of the age of the ages." Young's Literal Translation: "into the age of the ages." The "eon of the eons" refers to a crowning eon of another which precedes it.

So what is meant by this expression? Many KJV tradition scholars say that these three different Greek phrases are idiomatic expressions for "eternity." Idiotic, perhaps, but not idiomatic! Similar expressions used in the Scriptures are cited in order to illustrate the meaning: Song of Solomon 1:1, "song of songs;" Eccl. 12:8, "vanity of vanities;" Gen 9:25, "servant of servants;" Ex. 26:33, "holy of the holies;" Deut. 10:17, "God of gods and Lord of lords;" Dan. 8:25, "prince of princes;" Phil. 3:5, "Hebrew of Hebrews;" 1 Tim. 6:15, "King of kings and Lord of lords." Most students of the Scriptures understand what is meant by such expressions, so why is Eph. 3:21, "eon of the eons" an enigma? The eon of the eons refers to the final and greatest of all eons. That it cannot refer to "eternity" is shown by the statement that there will be "generations," which implies procreation, which will not happen in eternity since we will then be like the angels. This eon succeeds the millennial eon, and is previous to the final state.

There are others who teach the same. Dr. A.T. Pierson supports this view in his book, The Bible and Spiritual Life: "This view is so clearly scriptural that the only surprise is that it has not been more definitely and widely held. It adds immeasurably, both to the glory of Christ as the coming King, and the Father as the former and framer of the ages. It is the period typified by the eighth day of the Mosaic Code: the perfect glory of Christ, reserved for 'the morrow after.' The millennial 'Sabbath.' And while the millennial period is limited to a thousand years, there are no definite limits to this final age of glory."

Mr. George Saltau, in his book, Past, Present and Future, adopts the same view.

Clarence Larkin, Dispensational Truth, or God's Plan and Purpose in the Ages, shows (p. 3, chart "The Ages") an age succeeding the kingdom age, which he calls the "perfect age." This "perfect age" is also shown in other charts in Mr. Larkin's book.

The expression, "eon of the eons," is not limited to its use at Eph. 3:21. In the LXX at Dan. 7:18 we see, heos aionos ton aionon, "until eon of the eons." In the Song of the Three Children (LXX, Septuagint), at the end of verse 68, there is, kai eis ton aiona ton aionon, "and into the eon of the eons." In the book of Enoch there is a similar expression: "until the judgment of the eon of the eons be accomplished."

Windet, in De Vita Functor Statu, states, "However you understand the phrase, it could not be used unless it signified something less than endlessness; for 'completion' does not accord with true endlessness." Therefore, the expression "eon of the eons" and "eon of the eon" mean the last and crowning eon in which Christ will hand everything to His Father, entirely subjected (1 Cor. 15:22-28). We know that the millennial eon will not be one of such complete subjection, for Christ will rule with a rod of iron, and at its close, after the most wonderful and beneficial rule by His sceptre, at the instigation of Satan, loosed from the pit, large numbers of those who have been blessed under Christ's gracious reign will revolt against Him (Rev. 20:7-9). While there may be many different interpretations about this "thousand year period," clearly we have time, and things not yet subjected. This revolt shows that the subjection spoken of at 1 Cor. 15:22-28; Eph. 1:9-11; Phil. 2:10-11; and Col. 1:10-20 has not been completed. It will take yet another eon, following the millennial one, with Christ reigning to end all insubordination in all His realms, before He will finally surrender to His Father all completed, so that the Father can be "all in all." The final eon is that of new heavens and the new earth wherein reigns righteousness (2 Pet. 3:13). That is the one called the "eon of the eon" (Heb. 1:8). It is also called the "eon of the eons" at Eph 3:21, because it is paramount to all preceding eons, including the millennial eon in which Christ Jesus reigns as Messiah and King. Paul writes (Eph. 2:6,7) of the blessings of the coming eons. He says: "And He rouses us together and seats us together among the celestials in Christ Jesus, that in the oncoming eons, He may be displaying the transcendent riches of His grace in His kindness to us in Christ Jesus" (see also Eph. 3:20-21).

Thus, in the coming eons, the millennial and the succeeding eon, Christ Jesus will be displaying His transcending riches to us. We must be careful when talking about what God will do in future generations and ages. For too often we project our own ideas onto the plan of God. I hope I have not crossed that line. Yet when it comes to the correct rendering of these words, I feel certain what you are reading sheds much light which many Bible translations have hidden from us.

Let us get back to "forever and ever." The Greek phrase eis tous aionas ton aionon, "for the eons of the eons," occurs about twenty times in the Greek New Testament in this combination. The ASV margin and some other versions, lexicons, dictionaries, and commentaries translate the phrase correctly.

Windet, in De Vita Functora Statu, of 1633 says (p. 170), "eis tous aionas ton aionon, of the New Testament meant a finite period."

At 1 Cor. 15:25, where the Greek text shows, dei gar auton basileuein achri hou thê pantas tous echthrous hupo tous podas autou, "For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet." This clearly states that Christ's reigning is limited. There is no Scripture to contradict the statement when aion and aionios are correctly translated.

Dr. William Barclay concurs in his commentary (p. 166-169) on The Letters to the Corinthians. If the Greek words eis tous aionas ton aionon mean endless time, as translated in the KJV, "forever and ever," we have a contradiction in Scripture, for Rev. 11:15 says, in the same version: "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." That contradicts 1 Cor. 15:25, which says: "He must be reigning till..." If Rev. 11:15 is translated "eons of the eons," or "ages of the ages," there is no contradiction. The ASV says (1 Cor. 15:24-25), "Then cometh the end, when He shall deliver up the kingdom to God., even the Father; When He shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power. For He must reign till He hath put all His enemies under His feet;" consequently, the reigning of Christ Jesus and the saints (Rev. 22:5) will be "for the eons of the eons" or "for the ages of the ages" (see the ASV margin here).

Eis tous aionas is accusative plural, "for the eons," or "for the ages," and these words are not "forever and ever," which are in the singular. The word ton is the genitive plural article, and in our syntax should be translated "of the." In this Greek clause, there is no word that means "and," as the Greek conjunction kai; "and," is not in this clause. The word aionon is the genitive plural of the noun aion, and the genitive plural in this syntax should be translated "eons," or "ages;" hence ton aionon, "of the eons." Anyone can study these words and see that "forever and ever" is not a good translation of these Greek words. As eis is used in this clause and as eis involves a movement or development toward a goal, this clause cannot mean endlessness.

As mentioned previously, there are several analogous expressions in the Scriptures which should show the meaning of the words under discussion. In Ex. 26:33 (LXX), tou hagiou ton hagion, "in the holy of the holies." This is similar to the "eon of the eons" of Eph. 3:21. In II Kings 8:6 (LXX) we see, eis ta hagia ton hagion, "for the holies of the holies"-similar to "eons of the eons." The "holy of the holies" and "holies of the holies" refer to the tabernacle. Psalm 44:7 says, ho thronos sou ho theos, eis ton aiona tou aionos, "Thy throne, O God, is for the eon of eon"-similar to Heb. 1:8. Daniel 7:18: "until eon of the eons" and similar to that of Eph. 3:21, where a singular is followed by a plural, "eon of the eons." In these expressions we see the eons corresponding to the holies in the tabernacle. While there are many different teachings on the types in the Tabernacle of Moses, it should not be too difficult to see that there were at least five divisions: (1) without the camp; (2) in the camp; (3) in the court; (4) in the holy place; and (5) in the holy of holies. These may be likened to the five eons we find in the Scriptures (past eons, present eon, future eons). The last eon is called the "eon of the eons," because it, like the "holy of holies," is the climax of the others. In Hebrews chapter 9, the Greek text of Nestle reads (margin v. 25), eis ta hagia ton hagion, "into the holies of the holies," and (v. 3), hagia hagion, "holies of holies." Just as the two holy places in the tabernacle are called the holies of holies, so the last two eons are often called the eons of the eons. As the tabernacle illustrated man's approach to God, it corresponds closely with the eonian times, which also brings man to God. The "holy of holies" was a single holy place. The "eon of eons," a single eon. It was the pre-eminence of the "holy of holies," in relation to the other holy places, which caused it to be so designated. So the pre-eminence of the "eon of the eons" lies in its being the fruitage and harvest of previous eons. The same is true of the "holies of the holies" of Heb. 9:25. They may be likened to the "eons of the eons" of Rev. 11:15; 22:5. Luke 1:33 says of Christ's "kingdom there shall be no end." While the kingdom itself will not end, but the reign of Christ for the eons of the eons will end when He delivers up the kingdom to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-26).

Mr. W. Kelly, in his book, Lectures on the Book of Revelation, commenting upon the saints' reign, states (p. 435-436), "Supposing that God's Word speaks of the earthly state of things and uses the expression 'reigning forever and ever,' as in Daniel 7 and Luke 1, it cannot be understood absolutely. The words must be limited by the subject-matter of which God is speaking-so in Daniel 7:27 the kingdom under the whole heaven, which is given to the people of the saints of high places, is said to be an everlasting kingdom. This, I apprehend, is the same period that is called here the thousand years."

The sentence in Rev. 22:5 saying: "They will be reigning for the eons of the eons" shows that the expression has no reference either to the present or to the preceding eons. The Greek verb basileusousin, "they will be reigning" is a third-person plural future active indicative form; so this reigning must be future. In this present eon, as in those preceding ones, the slaves, or servants, of God are not reigning. Similarly, that God and Christ are living for "the eons of the eons" (Rev. 1:18; 4:9; 10:6; 15:7) has reference to the eons of the future, not to the present eon. That is not to say that God and Christ Jesus are not living during the previous eons. God was the living pre-eonian God. He is the living eonian God, and He will be the living post-eonian God. Paul, when writing to Timothy, said (1 Tim. 4:10), "For this we are toiling and being reproached, for we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of believers."

Two scriptures state positively that the eons will end: 1 Cor. 10:11, tauta de tupikos sunebainen ekeinois egraphê de pros nouthesian hêmon eis hous ta telê ton aionon katêntêken, "Now those things befalls them typically, yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained." Paul had said what those things are, which befalls them typically, in the preceding verses. Yet "it was written" is in the singular, for "our" (plural) admoniton- the "our" referring to the saints, who are the present believers. "To whom," referring to the saints, "the consummations of the eons have attained." The Corinthian saints had attained the consummations of eons in spirit because they were a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). Some day all will be a new creation (Rev. 21:5). Now, only the saints who are in Christ are of the new creation, but it is God's goal for the eons to head up all in the Christ, as stated at

Eph. 1:9-11. Salvation for all is God's plan for the eons. Those saints believing now have attained that purpose, so have attained the consummation of the eons.

While some doubt such an exegesis of 1 Cor. 10:11, others, such as the writer of the New Dictionary of the N. T. Theology, concur (vol. 1, p. 324): "Paul also speaks of a movement from God to man. 1 Corinthians 10:11 speaks of us 'upon whom the end of the ages has come.' Hebrews 9:26 contains a similar expression, 'at the end of the ages' (time, art. aion). Christ appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. The movement directed by God towards its end; with us it has now attained its goal. The thought also contains the certainty that with Christ, Who inaugurates the end of the ages, a new world era and order of things has begun. Admittedly, this is apparent only to the believer."

Consequently, with the saints it is possible in spirit to taste the powers of the ages to come (Heb. 6:5). At Hebrews 9:26 the Greek says, epei edei auton pollakis pathein apo katabolês kosmou nuni de hapax epi sunteleia ton aionon eis athetêsin tês hamartias dia têsthusias autou pephanerotai, "Since then, He must often be suffering from the disruption of the world, yet now, once, at the conclusion of the eons, for the repudiation of sin through His sacrifice, He has been manifested." In the clause, "He has been manifested," the verb is a third-person singular perfect passive indicative. The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state, resultant upon a past action. There is no English tense which corresponds to that of the Greek perfect, so this form is a difficult one to convey into English. It may be translated: "through His sacrifice, He is manifested." But it is clear His sacrifice was not at the "end of the world," as the KJV says, since the world continues. But it is equally clear that His sacrifice was not at the "conclusion of the eons," since Paul wrote of "this present wicked eon" and the "on-coming eons" (Gal. 1:4; Eph. 2:7). Sin still remains, and there is a world of sinners; but when the eons come to a conclusion, sin will be repudiated by virtue of His sacrifice.

In Romans 4:17 Paul says, "According as it is written that, a father of many nations I have appointed you, facing which, he believed it of the God Who is vivifying the dead and calling what is not as if it were." Here Paul is writing of Abraham, that Abraham believes God. The God Abraham believes is the God "who is vivifying the dead and calling what is not as if it were." God did not say, "I will appoint you a father of many nations," but "I have appointed you," using a Greek perfect verb, which indicates a completed action with a resultant state of being. As God stated it, it is already an accomplished fact, yet at the time, Abraham did not even have a son, and he was nearly one hundred years old. So God was there calling what was not as though it were. God speaks so of us, when He says: "Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also, now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also" (Rom. 8:29-30; see Eph. 1:3-8). Are we glorified now? Certainly not! But God is following the same pattern of dealing with us as with Abraham, in that He is calling what is not as if it were. God says that He "seats us together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 2:6), yet we are still in this world, and a part of an ecclesia on the earth. He can make such a statement because He can, and will, do what He says.

Because we are a new creation in Christ Jesus (2 Cor. 5:17), we have attained to the consummations of the eons (1 Cor. 10:11). At the conclusion of the eons, sin will be repudiated. At present God is "calling what is not as if it were." Only God is able to do that.

The Scriptures teach that during the eons mankind is experiencing evil, sin, sickness, death, judgments, generation, opposition from sovereignties, authorities and powers, all of which will be nullified or abolished, as stated in 1 Cor. 15:22-28.

Luke 1:50 says, kai to eleos autou eis geneas kai geneas tois phoboumenois auton, "and His mercy is for generations and generations, for those who are fearing Him." In the phrase, "for generations and generations," there is an example of two plural nouns being used with the conjunction kai, "and;" but in the expression aionas ton aionon, there is no conjunction. The word ton, "of the," is the genitive plural article, and should not be translated "and," as is done in the KJV's "forever and ever." The LXX, at Psa. 90:1, states, en genea kai genea, "in generation and generation." Another example of the use of the conjunction kai, "and," between the two words for "generation" in the singular. At Heb. 1:8 the noun aion, "eon," is used twice in the singular form, but with no "and" between. At Ex. 15:18, kurios basileuon ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti, "the Lord is reigning the eon and upon eon and longer." Eon, as used here, cannot refer to time without end, for there could be nothing beyond, or longer than, endless time. Here the Latin Vulgate says, Dominus regnabit in aeturnum et ultra, "The Lord will reign unto [or into] eternity and beyond." The Latin word in, when used with an accusative aeturnum, has the meaning of placing His reign in eternity, but the ultra, "beyond," shows it did not stop when it was placed there, but continued beyond the time of the placing. The English words, "forever and ever," unfortunately, do not convey the same meaning.

The Hebrew text shows, "to the eon and further." Similar expressions appear frequently in the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin texts (see Daniel 12:3, for example).

Wycliffe's version, the first translation into English, did not use the words "forever and ever." Several versions in modern English do not use those words either: The Emphasized Bible, by J.B. Rotherham; The N. T., A Translation, by E.L. Clementson; The Emphatic Diaglott, by Benjamin Wilson; Young's Literal Translation, by Professor Robert Young; and The Concordant Literal New Testament, by A.E. Knoch as well as others.

[rodgertutt]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Quote:

Satan is not interested in being in heaven with Jesus, unless he is on a par level with Jesus. He isn't now, never was, and never will be. He knows that. And he's laughing at those who think he will be "saved." What a farce.

Sooner or later everyone will learn that they started trusting in Jesus as their Saviour ONLY because God laid hold on them by His sovereign grace and made Jesus "choice" in their heart, just like He will for Satan at some point in the future.

Stan said you probably won't want to read a lot of copy and paste, but here it is in case you change your mind.

Personally, I believe that the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action among the celestials will occur when Satan humbly bows in love and adoration in front of His Saviour Jesus Christ.

UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION – MINNIE ALBERTSON

“The original scriptures taught final universal salvation; but translators usually rejected that theme. So they added to, or dropped words, to make the text conform to their wrong thinking. They could not eradicate the original theme; but we inherited their wrong thinking in our translations, and so we have the resulting direct contradictions. Unknown time periods they made endless.

Salvation is for angels also. ‘All things were created by Him, and for Him’ (Col. 1:16).

‘For Thy pleasure they are and were created (Rev. 4:11). So He ‘reconciles all things unto Himself, whether they be on earth, or things in the heavens (Col. 1:16-21).

Even the devil is not too evil to be corrected. Note who he belongs to, as well as those he deceives. ‘The deceived and the deceiver are His’ (Job 12:16). (end quote)

“God delights to reconcile all, whether those on the earth, or those in the heavens (Col. 1:20). Therefore there is no more reason to suppose that Satan is not included therein than that any other certain creature is not included therein. Therefore it must be that that notable creature who had rightly long been termed “the Adversary,” is very much included in the reconciliation of the universe, at which time this title (“Adversary” or “Satan”) necessarily will no longer apply, since he will be reconciled and be at peace.” (end quote)

Jim Coram, UNSEARCHABLE RICHES, March 2005.

“Ah, I long intently for that day when even the devil himself shall put away his pitchfork, hang up his horns, and come humbly and brokenly to the Father's house! Does that startle you? How else could it be in that glad day when the Christ has finally RECONCILED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH, including all the PRINCIPALITIES AND POWERS OF THE HEAVENLY SPHERE!” (end quote)

RECONCILIATION IN THE HEAVENS – J. Preston Eby

http://www.godfire.net/eby/reconcilehvns.html

THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL – PAUL SIEGVOLCK

“Col. 1: 16-20 teaches us the extent of the reconciliation made by Christ, namely, that it extends itself over the whole creation. Therefore the fallen angels must also necessarily have their share in it, for they do incontestably belong to the invisible things created by Christ, and consequently to all things including the things in the heavens.

‘Jehovah is good to all: and His tender mercies are over all His works.’ Psalm 145:9

In this passage we are plainly told that the mercy of God, or His tender love, does not only extend itself to men, but universally towards all creatures that have their being and stand in need of mercy; and consequently also towards the fallen angels; which tender love of God must necessarily at last effect or bring about the restoration of all corrupt creatures, for it is not a weak or faint, but an almighty love.” (end quote)

AVITUS and BASIL taught

“Future torments are not endless; for although they are called everlasting, yet that word in the original Greek, does not, according to its etymology, and its frequent use, signify endless, but answers only to the duration of an age; so that every sinner, after the purification of his conscience, shall return into the unity of the body of Christ.

The devil himself will at length be saved, when all his wickedness shall have been subdued.

ERSKINE’S SKETHCHES OF CHURCH HISTORY records the words of John Gasper Christian Lavater.

“God is not gracious in time and cruel through eternity. Ascribe not to God, what in a human judge all would account a defect in wisdom and goodness, the punishing for the sake of punishing. It is enough my Creator, Thou art love. Love seeketh not her own; Thou seekest the happiness of all, and shouldst Thou not then find what Thou seekest? Shouldst Thou not be able to do what Thou willest?

My prayers are comprehensive. I embrace in my heart all men; present and future times, and nations, yea Satan himself. I present them all to God, with the warmest wishes that He will have mercy on them all.”

CLOUDS AND SUNSHINE – J.S. Taylor

I cannot believe that any being will exist in any part of the universe, so steeped in guilt and anguish (no, not Satan himself), as to be beyond the redeeming love and healing power of the Creator.

Oh, no; on the contrary, I believe that in this mysterious, but divinely ordained conflict of good and evil, the powers of light are everywhere slowly but surely gaining the ascendancy over the powers of darkness, and that it will continue to be so, even unto the perfect day; yes, that perfect day, wherein all these blessed victories over sin and ignorance shall have been consummated, these transformations completed, and no solitary stain of folly, guilt, or grief, be left to mar the luster of the universe.”

Gregory of Nyssa

"What is the scope of St. Paul’s dissertations? That the nature of evil shall, at length, be wholly exterminated, and divine immortal goodness embrace within itself every rational creature; so that of all who were made by God, not one shall be excluded from His kingdom. All the viciousness that like a corrupt matter is mingled in things shall be dissolved and consumed in fire; and everything shall be restored to its pristine state of purity.

In 1Cor. 15:22-28, the apostle Paul declares the extinction of all sin, saying that God will be All in all. For God will be truly All in all only when no evil shall remain in the nature of things. All evil must at length, be entirely removed from everything, so that it shall no more exist. For such being the nature of sin, that it cannot exist without a corrupt motive, it must, of course, be perfectly dissolved and wholly destroyed, so that nothing can remain a receptacle of it, when all motive and influences shall spring from God alone.

As the devil assumed a fleshly shape in order to ruin human nature, so the Lord took flesh for the salvation of man; and thus He blesses not only him who was ruined, but him also who led him into perdition; so that He both delivers man from sin, and heals the author of sin himself.”

[rodgertutt]

GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME

THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE

http://www.saviourofall.org/Tracts/Eons2.html

MUST AION MEAN ETERNAL? – PHILIP SCRANTON

"There are many texts in which aion and aionios cannot bear the meaning of eternity. And there are no texts in which the meaning of a limited period of time does not make reasonable sense. Our great loss is that when we ascribe the meaning of eternity to these words, we obliterate from view God's purpose of the eons.

It does not say that "all in Christ shall be made alive." It says, "in Christ shall all be made alive." The word for made alive means to be made immortal. After the great white throne, the unbelieving will participate in the second death – the lake of fire. Finally, at the consummation, when death is abolished, all will be made alive in Christ."

God is working all things after the counsel of His will and according to His perfect schedule. But the improper translation of "for the ages of the ages" ignores the purpose and climax of history. The holies of the holies (plural/plural) were the two inner confines of the tabernacle. (1Kings 8:6 literal translation instead of the most holy place.) They were more holy than the outer court and the camp and all the places outside the camp. In like manner, the ages of the ages are the two greatest ages of history because of what will transpire during their time. It does not cast the smallest shadow on the brilliance of God's glory to say that glory be attributed to Him during the climatic eons when His purpose will be realized by all and His glory seen more clearly than ever before."

[Samie]

The Universalist says reconciliation is still future.

The Bible says reconciliation had been accomplished on the cross:

Romans 5:10-11

Quote:

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

"Atonement" and "Reconciliation" are from the same Greek word "katallage"

2 Corinthians 5:18

Quote:

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

On the cross, all men had been reconciled to God but only overcomers will enter heaven and inherit eternal life (Rev 3:5; 21:1-7, 27).

The Universalist teaches contrary to what the Bible says. Beware of their teachings. It could make persons act and live like devils being pampered with the false hope heaven will still be their final home.

Again I say, beware.

[dialoguewithus]

"Hebrews 1:8

But of the Son he says,

"Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,

the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom."

That this is a mistranslation is apparent from many other texts. Notice the word "till" or "until".

Psalms 110:1 (CLV)

{A Davidic Psalm{ The averring of Yahweh to my Lord: Sit at My right Until I should set Your enemies as a stool for Your feet.

Mark 12:36 (CLV)

For he, David, said, in the holy spirit, 'Said the Lord to my Lord, "Sit at My right, Till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet."

Luke 20:43 (CLV)

Till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet."

Acts 2:35 (CLV)

Till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet."

Hebrews 1:13 (CLV)

Now to which of the messengers has He declared at any time, "Sit at My right, till I should be placing Thine enemies for a footstool for Thy feet"?

Hebrews 10:13 (CLV)

waiting furthermore till His enemies may be placed as a footstool for His feet.

1 Cor. 15:20-28 shows clearly when Christ will give up the throne to God.

[dialoguewithus]

Ro. 5:10, 11

For if, being enemies, we were conciliated to God through the death of His Son, much rather, being conciliated, we shall be saved in His life. Yet not only so, but we are glorying also in God, through our Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom we now obtained the conciliation.

As we've discussed previously, the word here, conciliated, as with the Greek word, differs from the word reconciliation, which the Bible and the dictionary shows involves two parties in every case. No one can be reconciled without his knowledge, nor before he even exists, except in the sense that God is the God of the living for all live to Him. He sees the end from the beginning. Therefore, He is the Savior of all mankind.

[Samie]

...

As we've discussed previously, the word here, conciliated, as with the Greek word, differs from the word reconciliation, which the Bible and the dictionary shows involves two parties in every case.

[Q.E.D.]

Universalists do not keep the 10 commandments of God so there is ZERO chance of the remnant saints being deceived by them.

[dialoguewithus]

Conciliation- The owner conciliated the anger of her employees at having to work longer hours by giving them wage increases. The anger was the employees', not the owner's.

Reconciliation- The two friends had a reconciliation after they disagreed, and now they are friends again.

In the NT, there are two different words as well, because they have two different meanings. Of course, Christ secured and assured the reconciliation of all at the cross. But the manifestation takes place in each heart, when God designs it to take place.

[Samie]

You can come up with your own thesaurus. Existing ones have conciliation = reconciliation.

The Universalist says "Christ secured and assured the reconciliation of all at the cross".

The Bible says "God reconciled all at the cross".

Beware of the teaching of the Universalist. It encourages people to act and live like demons, being pampered with the false hope heaven will still be their final home.

[dialoguewithus]

If fear is your motive for serving God, then may fear be your theme. I choose to believe the scriptures, and serve God from love, but each one receives their own gifts from God; some will believe one thing, some another, until, to paraphrase the Quran, "God straightens us out concerning our differences." I doubt anyone here is intending to deceive anyone, so let's just pray and study and consider each others' opinions, as we have two ears, and only one mouth, even if we are "speaking" through a keybd.

[dialoguewithus]

“God is greater than our heart, and He knows all.” 1 John 3:20.

Acts 17:

30 Indeed, then, condoning the times of ignorance, God is now charging mankind that all everywhere are to repent, 31 forasmuch as He assigns a day in which He is about to be judging the inhabited earth in righteousness by the Man Whom He specifies, tendering faith to all, raising Him from among the dead –

“all everywhere are to repent” corresponds to John 1:9; 12:32; Titus 2:11. God will enlighten all, and draw all to Himself. This must occur after death, in the case of many, for we know that not only does God not grant faith to all during this life, but He doesn’t even allow many to reach the age of five before perishing. 1 Pt. 2:8; 2 Thes. 2:13; 3:2; Ro. 9:15-24.

God will be “tendering faith to all”, for He is the Savior of all mankind, and especially of believers. 1 Tim. 4:9-11; 1 Cor. 15:20-28; 12:3; Phil. 2:9-11.

On the cross, God secured reconciliation for all; not only mankind, but all created beings. Col. 1:15-20.

“Not stronger than He are we!” 1 Cor. 10:22. While many feel that they will never submit to God, they will, for the Creator’s will is sovereign, while the creature’s will is not. 1 Tim. 2:1-6; Ro. 5:18, 19; Ps. 135:6; Is. 46:10.

[rodgertutt]

Beware of the teaching of the Universalist. It encourages people to act and live like demons, being pampered with the false hope heaven will still be their final home.

I think it's sad that you think that way Samie.

I can't speak for other URs, but personally, I think that Jesus is so wonderful that I want to please Him every moment of every day.

I'm not aware of any UR who uses their belief to justify living a careless sinful life.

Doesn't it make you wonder that perhaps God won't let you even want to believe that UR might be true because He knows that if you yourself started to believe it you would go out and sin as much as you really want to?

[rodgertutt]

A SNIPPET FROM THE PROBLEM OF EVIL AND THE JUDGMENTS OF GOD – A.E. KNOCH

“I, for one, freely confess that, without a knowledge of the consummation, when God will reconcile all and become All in all, I could not have confidence in a deity who allowed the world to work itself into such a mess, and who can do little more for most men than to sweep them into destruction or extinction.

But now, how can I distrust God? Mankind is just where He has brought it. The effect of all the present evil and distress will be salutary. God will get glory out of it, and men will be prepared by it to appreciate the gifts He has in store for them all.”

[dialoguewithus]

Romans 8:20

For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation

“Vanity” is the Greek mat ai o’t es

It appears in two other verses:

Eph. 4:17 “in the vanity of their mind, their comprehension being darkened”

2 Pt. 2:18 “uttering pompous vanity”

“Voluntarily” must refer to the creation, rather than to Him Who subjects the creation to vanity. It was not the will of creation, but the will of the Creator, that things should be as they are. Why did He subject the creation to vanity? He did it “in expectation that the creation itself also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of god.” Did creation have that expectation on its own? Of course not. Only God sees the end from the beginning. Only He was aware of the fact that “not as the offense, thus also the grace.” Only He knew that the gratuity in grace to the many superabounds. Ro. 5:15. Only God knew and knows how to make good come out of evil. Only God can foresee a superior outcome in a redeemed creation vs. an innocent creation. Gen. 3:22. Ecclesiastes 1:13 (CLV)- “I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.” God was not surprised by sin, nor is it a mystery to Him. He made the Adversary, or he who He knew would become the Adversary. God made Adam and the tree of knowledge, knowing what would happen. God is love. God has all power. He is all-wise. Trust Him!

Ecc. 1:13 http://interlinearbible.org/ecclesiastes/1-13.htm

7451 ra’ http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Lexicon.show/ID/h7451/page/2

6031 la ‘a no wt http://studybible.info/strongs/H6031

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Beware of the teaching of the Universalist. It encourages people to act and live like demons, being pampered with the false hope heaven will still be their final home.

I think it's sad that you think that way Samie.

I can't speak for other URs, but personally, I think that Jesus is so wonderful that I want to please Him every moment of every day.

I'm not aware of any UR who uses their belief to justify living a careless sinful life.

[Samie]

...

On the cross, God secured reconciliation for all; not only mankind, but all created beings. Col. 1:15-20.

...