Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[rodgertutt]

#28 - THE ANCIENT HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – HOSEA BALLOU

From the time of the apostles to the era of the reformation 1498.

“I have been careful to state, in his own words, the opinion of every Christian author extant concerning future punishment and the eventual salvation of the world. This history contains an account of every individual of note whom we have now the means of knowing to have been a universalist.”

#29 - THE MODERN HISTORY OF UNIVERSALISM – THOMAS WHITTEMORE

Contains the writings of several hundreds of Christian Universalists from 1498 to 1830.

A snippet from Thomas Whittemore reads, “I cannot permit this opportunity to pass without expressing my heart felt acknowledgements to that Being Who has preserved my health and enabled me to finish this work in the midst of other pressing and incessant duties. May my confidence in Him never be diminished.”

[dialoguewithus]

A snippet from All in All, by A. E. Knoch:

The phrase "Conditional Immortality" contains some truth. We who believe in eventual universal salvation also believe that Christ is the only Savior and that man is mortal. It is the false assumption and unfair implication that universal reconciliation denies what is true in "conditional immortality" which is used to prejudice the saints against it. We ourselves hold the truth that man is mortal, apart from Christ. We do not differ here.

It is with the insistent repetition of the finality of the judgment of the unbeliever that we disagree. To teach that it was the purpose of God to destroy, and that irretrievably, those whose names will not be found in the scroll of life at the judgment of the great white throne, is to believe some one other that God, for He has never used these words to describe the fate of those cast into the lake of fire.

--To which I would like to add, the second death cannot abolish death; it is death. 2Tim. 1:10

[Guest]

2Tim 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death, and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

[dialoguewithus]

1 Cor. 15:22,26-28:

For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified.

The last enemy is being abolished: death. 27 For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him." 28 Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.

God is vivifying all- 1 Tim. 6:13

[dialoguewithus]

A snippet from The Really Bad Thing About Free Will (2006), p. 64, by Martin Zender:

“The “fall” of humanity in the garden did not take God by surprise. How could anything take God by surprise? God did not resort – following the events of Eden – to Plan B. I am happy to tell you that God is still on Plan A, and the so-called fall was part of that plan. God has a plan (Ephesians 3:11). Imagine that.”

Romans 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation

Christ will conquer evil with good. He will draw all to Himself and subject all to Himself. Romans 12:21; John 12:32; Phil. 3:21. This is so because God graces Him with the name (“Yahweh saves”) above every name, so that every knee should be bowing, celestial and terrestrial and subterranean, and every tongue should be acclaiming that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God, the Father. This is in accord with the Father’s will, for a Ransom being paid, the Power can do nothing less than justify those ransomed by the precious blood of His Son. Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Tim. 2:1-6. The undeniable judgments reserved for some cannot negate that God is the Savior of all mankind, while especially of believers.

[rodgertutt]

#30 - RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS – ANDREW JUKES

“It is argued that whatever be the meaning of the word aionios in the case of the lost, the same must be its meaning in the case of the saved; and our certainty of never-ending bliss for penitent believers is gone if the word bears not the same signification in the case of the impenitent and unbelieving. But the truth is that this word describes not the quantity or duration, but the quality of that which it is predicated.

The word which in Matt. 25:46 we translate punishment, in its primary sense means ‘pruning’ and is always used for corrective discipline which is for the improvement of him who suffers it. Even those who hold the common view of the endlessness of punishment are obliged to confess this; and this of itself proves that their doctrine is untenable; for any punishment, be it for a longer or shorter time would not be corrective discipline, but quite another thing if it left those who were so corrected unimproved and lost forever. But from the fall till now the changeless way of the Lord is to make even the curse a blessing.”

[dialoguewithus]

A snippet from Bible Student’s Notebook, by André Sneidar:

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).

A.E. Saxby, in God in Redemption, gives us a wonderfully logical reason for rejecting the notion that God will condemn anyone to eternal damnation and suffering, and rather proves that He has provided for the salvation of all mankind.

He says,

If a human act was effectual for ruin, how much more shall a Divine act be effectual for salvation?

How quickly we believers will latch on to some fragment of a verse, in a whole context, to prove a negative perception and then propagate it as truth, to the total exclusion of the whole context of the doctrine being presented.

Why do we so easily jump to conclude all men to condemnation, but find it so terribly difficult to accept with the same unabashedness the accompanying text which says that “the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life”?

How can anyone think that as the first Adam’s act could bring about the “ruin” of all of his descendants, that the second Adam’s act was nowhere near as efficacious to provide the remedy whereby all of those descendants would be rescued from such a penalty? It’s really quite an illogical act of mental gymnastics to interpret Romans 5 that way.

It is rather amazing that we never consider that as sin abounded in its effect on all of the first Adam’s posterity, God’s “grace did much more abound” (Romans 5:20).

Thus, if the first Adam’s act was so powerful as to affect the ruin of all of his future generations, how much less of an effect would God’s grace be through the redeeming act of the Second Adam, that even one of those offspring could be eternally lost forever to the loving grace of His Creator and Father?

It is too much to comprehend that we serve a God and Father so callous to the welfare of His creation, that He would allow any one of His dear creatures to go unprovided for in the eternal plan of His “great love wherewith He loved us.””

[rodgertutt]

#31 - YOU SAID IT LORD – ALINE TALSMA

“Lord, did you really say in Your word what I used to believe You said? Is it actually ok with You that people will spend eternity in hell? No, no, a thousand times no! You do not say that - and I am so relieved. Because had You said that, it would follow that I would have to think of You as worse than a murderer, that is, as a tormentor. If a person is murdered at least the possibility of torture and torment is past. But if I were to believe that You have prepared an eternal hell for some, I would also have to believe that You can be happy while you are tormenting people eternally.”

[Gibs]

No eternal burning hell fire for anyone as they are consumed. He is that fire and called a consuming fire.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mt 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Ps 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Ps 21:10 Their fruit shalt thou destroy from the earth, and their seed from among the children of men.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

The subjection of all to Christ

What does God mean when He states that Christ can subject all to Himself? Philippians 3:21 tells us that this will be in accord with the transfiguration of the body of our humiliation, to conform it to the body of His glory. This is further explained in 1 Corinthians 15:42-44: “Thus also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is roused in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor; it is roused in glory. It is sown in infirmity; it is roused in power. It is sown a soulish body; it is roused a spiritual body.” Verse 28: “Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all.” So not only is Christ able to subject all to Himself; He will subject all to Himself. Once all are subjected to Christ, Christ will subject Himself to God, that God may be all in all. This is when Christ will be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father- verse 24. Verses 25-27 show the intimate relationship between the subjection of all to Christ, and the abolishment of death. In verse 22 we are informed that the “all” encompasses the entirety of mankind. This is in perfect harmony with Phil. 3:21. To further elucidate the theme, Paul gives us the revelation of Romans 5:18, 19. Being constituted just (immortality/ vivification) is contrasted with being constituted sinners (the body of our humiliation). Just as all mankind were condemned through Adam’s act, all mankind are justified through Christ’s sacrifice. This is an essential and unavoidable part of Christ’s achievement, “…For this was the Son of God manifested, that He should be annulling the acts of the Adversary.” 1 John 3:8. Never doubt that Christ and God are able to overcome Adam and Satan. Death will be abolished in practice; it already has been in principle. The realization of this achievement is accomplished in phases, for there are three classes in view in 1 Cor. 15:20-28.

[Gibs]

I would add to that, That with Christ in you that you now have Power to overcome your sinning now and that is one that must never be doubted. It is a fitting now or never, if it isn't done by each one of us we are condemning ourselves.

We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

A snippet from Universalism the Prevailing Doctrine of the Christian Church During its First Five Hundred Years, by J. W. Hanson, 1899:

(Origen Adamantius)

“This greatest of all Christian apologists and exegetes, and the first man in Christendom since Paul, was a distinctive Universalist. He could not have misunderstood or misinterpreted the teachings of his Master. The language of the New Testament was his mother tongue. He derived the teachings of Christ from Christ himself in a direct line through his teacher Clement; and he placed the defense of Christianity on Universalist grounds. When Celsus, in his “True Discourse”, the first great assault on Christianity, objected to Christianity on the ground that it taught punishment by fire, Origen replied that the threatened fire possessed a disciplinary, purifying quality that will consume in the sinner whatever evil material it can find to consume….God will act the part….Origen says, “not like a cook but like a God who is a benefactor of those who stand in need of discipline of fire.””

[Gibs]

Universalists have a teaching all men will be saved and when I hear that word I am turned off.

Christ's are not universalists but His and only His. They are separate from the world, they continue to heed His call, to come out of her my people and His hear His voice and they recognize it from the fact it is the truth as He gives in His Word to all who will receive it instead of words of men.

We who are His are led of Him Only.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

All paths do not lead to God; I agree on that point. But God is the Savior of all mankind, especially of believers. This means, at a minimum, that all hear the message of salvation and are given "a chance" to be saved. Although, I don't consider salvation a matter of chance, I am just setting out what seems like a reasonable minimum to be considered the Savior of all mankind. So what about those who die without ever hearing of the One true God during their time on our "earthly journey'?

[dialoguewithus]

Actually, as far as I know, the definition of “savior” is one who saves. So 1 Timothy 4:10 is in perfect harmony with the rest of the scriptures; God saves those who believe in this life for eonian glory in the oncoming eons, while the rest of mankind will not receive immortality until the eons have run their course. What turns me off is when Christians refuse to heed the words of scripture because they place more weight in other writings.

[rodgertutt]

#32 - THOUGHTS ON THE DIVINE GOODNESS RELATIVE TO THE GOVERNMENT OF MORAL AGENTS PARTICULARLY DISPLAYED IN FUTURE REWARDS AND PUNISHMENTS – FERDINAND OLIVER PETITPIERRE

“I am assured that goodness is the foundation, and happiness is the end of all the ways of God, to myself and every creature. Hope is the anchor of my soul, sure and steadfast; for though ‘His ways should be in the deep and His paths in the mighty waters;’ though I should experience every external evil; no affliction shall shake my confidence. Never will I dishonor by a moment’s distrust, a Being Who has in mercy commanded me to ‘cast all my care upon Him;’ because ‘He careth for me.’

I have in the whole of this treatise, in establishing the doctrine of perfect goodness, and following it in its consequences; constantly combated such erroneous opinions as represent the Creator of the human race as a Being Whose power will be employed in inflicting never ending torments on a portion of His creatures, and I have established the non-eternity of future torments.”

[Gibs]

Mal 4:1 ¶ For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Heb 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

“It says God will burn all the sinners to ash and that the second death is eternal.”

Some believe Malachi 4 is a literal description of a judgment upon sinners. We would be wise to study the symbolism of the word “ashes”. We can’t negate the many clear statements that all will be constituted just and immortal, based on the assumption that some of the saints will literally dance upon the remains of those condemned to burning judgment. In fact, both could be fulfilled; there is no contradiction. The claim that the second death is permanent is a mere assumption, not unlike the assumption many make about the first death. Acts 24:15.

“God has to respect our decisions, so He can’t save us if we don’t want to be saved.”

So who’s in charge, us or Him? Who gave us this so-called “freedom”? If He gave us this freedom, then He gave control of the universe over to sinners. The scriptures clearly state that faith is a gift- not an offered gift, but simply a gift. The Giver determines who will receive faith and when. Regardless of the circumstances and timing, only He saves, through His grace. And there is only one Name in which we must be saved. Acts 4:12; Rev. 17:17.

The Meaning of Destruction

http://hopebeyondhell.org/ (Teaching Articles)

[Gibs]

Those of the second resurrection and Satan and his angels throughout eternity will never be re-instated.

Na 1:9 ¶ What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.

Na 1:10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry.

Just those who have found total freedom within His Will will ever have a place in the Heavenly Kingdom. The Holy Angels are totally free within His Will but Satan and those who co-opted with him are not and never would be.

They are destined to be no more for eternity, they have choosen it that way.

Ps 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

Ob 1:16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

Psalm 37:9-11

“For the evildoers, they shall be cut off, Yet those expecting Yahweh, they shall tenant the land. And still a little while, and there will be no wicked one; When you consider his place, he will not be there. Yet the humbled ones, they shall tenant the land, And they will find pleasure in the abundance of well-being.” This text seems to parallel Matthew 5:5, where Jesus promises Israel their kingdom: “Happy are the meek, for they shall be enjoying the allotment of the land.”

The following is from All in All http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=

"They shall be as though they had not been" (Obadiah 16) is another one of the principal proof texts to show that the wicked shall be utterly destroyed or annihilated. At first sight, this seems to be the import of the words. But the figure as, or like, always is limited in its scope, and never denotes the same as if they had not been. The context should tell how far this likeness goes, and this is pointed out, to some extent, even in our Authorized Version.

The general context clearly shows that these words do not apply to all the wicked, but are confined to one nation, Edom, at a definite time, when the day of Jehovah comes. To use it of any others at another era changes it from truth to error. If it teaches annihilation, this must be applied only to Edom at the manifestation of Jehovah. Moreover, it is a national penalty, not an individual one. As all in Israel suffered in its national calamities, so will all those in its neighbor nations be involved in God's judgments over them. The Edomite nation it is which shall be as if it had not been. This is in accord with other prophecies concerning that day, and with our Lord's judgment of the living nations at His advent. Edom, with other nations that did not succor our Lord's brethren, will go into eonian chastening, while those who aided Israel will enjoy eonian life for the millennium."

As for Satan and his messengers, Phil. 2:9-11 and Col. 1:15-20 speak clearly of their ultimate fate, as far as I can see. And we are in agreement that affliction shall not rise up the second time. God bless!

[Gibs]

dialoguewithus,

I will not run the path and way you see, it isn't solid ground as it is clear to me that there is only one way, the way He has made and there is no other.

To you no scripture must have no clear meaning. I don't believe He meant it any other way but from what it clearly reads.

He leaves you to be free to believe what you find and I do too.

I bid you run as you find it peace in your heart.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

A snippet from The Inescapable Love of God, Pages 59, 60, by Thomas Talbott:

“Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life (Romans 5:18).

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all (Romans 11:32).

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive (I Corinthians 15:22).

In each of these texts, we encounter a contrast between two universal statements, and in each case the first “all” seems to determine the scope of the second. Accordingly, when Paul asserts in Romans 5:18 that Christ’s one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all, he evidently has in mind every descendant of Adam who stands under the judgment of condemnation; when he insists in Romans 11:32 that God is merciful to all, he has in mind every human being whom God has “shut up” to, or has “imprisoned” in, disobedience; and finally, when he asserts in I Corinthians 15:22 that “all shall be made alive” in Christ, he has in mind everyone who has died in Adam. The grammatical evidence here seems utterly decisive; you can reject it only if you are prepared to reject what is right before your eyes.”

Does “All” mean “All”?

http://hopebeyondhell.org/ (FAQ 4)

[rodgertutt]

#33 - HOPE BEYOND HELL – GERRY BEAUCHEMIN (recently published)

”Tradition has taught that God will not save a person against their will. I agree. However He has the power to orchestrate whatever circumstances are necessary to effect one’s will to change.

Once a full revelation of God is received in the ages to come (Eph. 2:7), men will bow and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord just as Isaiah and Paul prophesied (Is. 45:21-25; Rom. 4:11; Ph. 2:9-11). Who would want to continue in active and persistent rebellion knowing God only wants what is best for them? Knowing the great goodness and love of God, along with the Holy Spirit working in their hearts, these hardened hearts must melt before His glorious being.

It is impossible that an omnipotent God can fail in His purpose so that some would forever resist unconditional love opting for everlasting pain. This would be totally irrational. And even if one were that irrational, such resistance would not arise out of a ‘free’ will, but an ‘enslaved’ will, a will in bondage to an enslaved mind.”

[Gibs]

My advice is don't find out too late there is no hope for all who land in the lake of hell fire. There is no hope for Satan and his angels and all who are raised in the second resurrection.

Eternal life for us is to be in the first resurrection and that He has made it so all men can obtain it easily. It is not the way laid out by men and Satan to get as many as he can to perish with him for eternity infinitley.

Eternal life is as eternal as Our God is eternal.

Eternal death is as eteral as Our God is eternal.

You may have eternal life now, apply for it in Jesus Christ and it is by Him His Way and His Way Only and it is free and easy and none can or will have any excuse.

We choose our destiny now in this life for eternal life or eternal death.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[dialoguewithus]

Peace, Gibs

Did you know that there is no word in the Bible which can accurately be translated "eternal"? I put some info on this on the thread, Are You a Protestant? Here's a good source: What Does “Eternity” in the Bible Mean? by Gerry Beauchemin- http://hopebeyondhell.org/ (Teaching Articles)

Romans 8:28-30: "Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also." Happy New Year, everyone!