Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[Dr. Rich]

Your snipits are mistaken ideas.

[Samie]

Samie,

Have you noticed in Rev. 22:15 that the vessels of indignation are described as being outside the New Jerusalem? Don't you find it interesting that they are still mentioned, since they already entered the lake of fire?

Yes, I had long noticed that. And that's true. It's what the Lord Himself in Scriptures had said. That's why I believe it. I believe that whatever is NOT INSIDE is OUTSIDE. What is NOT IN is OUT. But if you are hinting that the wicked are merely in the vicinity of the gates of the New Jerusalem, I don't think so.

Both Sun and earth are INSIDE the Milky Way. But the earth is not inside the sun; It is outside; so many million miles away from the sun. So with the wicked. They are OUTSIDE of the city - the New Jerusalem. But not just near the gates. Perhaps, so many million miles away, too. Where? Yes, you had it right, in the lake of fire, in this old earth, as Scriptures had it. But where is the New Jerusalem? In the New Earth, NOT in this old earth.

Yes, the wicked are OUTSIDE the New Jerusalem, maybe million of mile away, in the lake of fire in this old earth.

[Samie]

]What about the fact that Satan will be in torment while the saints enjoy the new earth? Rev. 20:10. Interesting, in my opinion.

What about it? If it's what Scriptures say, so shall it be. If not, then, it won't.

[Samie]

What about the common claim that we are all condemned in Adam, automatically, through no choice of our own, due to the power of his disobedience, but that we are not freed from condemnation unless we make the proper choice(s), since Christ's obedience is apparently not as powerful as Adam's disobedience?

[Samie]

Does it strike you as odd that we are saved gratuitously (without cause in us) in His grace, and He wills all to be saved, and yet He ("permanently???") designates some as vessels of indignation, since "not for all is the faith (2 Thes. 3:2)", and God is "unable to save all" because our will is "more powerful than His"?

It is an entirely different story to be saved from sin and to be ultimately saved to inherit life eternal. All were saved from sin. All grace. Not an iota of human participation.

But to be ultimately saved to inherit life eternal necessitates positive response from us (Matt 24:13; Phil 2:12, 13). The Scriptures put the process as overcoming (Rom 12:21; Rev 3:5). On the cross, God had already fashioned humanity into the body of His Son (Eph 2:11-19), forgave us from all sins (Col 2:13), and current sins committed no longer imputed (2 Thes 5:18, 19)nor remembered (Heb 10:16, 17). But we need to overcome or be blotted out from the book of life and thrown instead into the lake of fire!

[Samie]

... yet He ("permanently???") designates some as vessels of indignation, since "not for all is the faith (2 Thes. 3:2)", and God is "unable to save all" because our will is "more powerful than His"?

[rodgertutt]

#58 - THE PURPOSE OF GOD – JOHN H. ESSEX

“To those who would challenge the truth of the reconciliation of all, I would reply, ‘It is God’s choice, and praise be to Him that He has chosen it to be so. Let no one deny God the right to choose as He wills.’ ”

“When God’s conciliatory hand of friendship has been grasped by all in complete reconciliation, and when the wisdom of His choosings and His appointments, that is His sovereignty has been universally accepted beyond question – in short, when God is All in all, then every one of His creatures will rejoice in being one of HIS achievements, and all in the heavens and on earth will be both prepared and glad to acknowledge that of themselves they have contributed nothing, but that ALL HAS BEEN OF HIM.”

[dialoguewithus]

Samie, if you were to read through this thread, I think you'd find answers to most of our disagreements. Of special interest might be “When is the Consummation?”, #515654. I will mention a few things: No one can be cut off from Christ’s Body, for “Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also." Ro 8:28-30.

“So with the wicked. They are OUTSIDE of the city - the New Jerusalem. But not just near the gates. Perhaps, so many million miles away, too. Where? Yes, you had it right, in the lake of fire, in this old earth, as Scriptures had it. But where is the New Jerusalem? In the New Earth, NOT in this old earth.” I’m not sure I understand you here. 2 Pt. 3:12, 13 seems pretty clear that the new earth will replace the present earth; they won’t exist simultaneously. As for whether the lake of fire will be in the vicinity of new Jerusalem, I’m not prepared to say. What I wanted to point out was that, under SDA theology (unless I’m mistaken) puts them in “nonexistence”; they are mentioned nonetheless. Odder still that Satan, far from being nonexistent, is suffering torment in the lake of fire during the eon of the eons- Rev. 20:10. All are definitely not now capable of making the choice for Christ, unless we ignore such scriptures as 1 Pt. 2:8; Ro. 9:16-18; Acts 13:48; Ro. 3:11; Jn. 12:37-40; 6:44. “All were saved from sin. All grace. Not an iota of human participation. [so far, so good…]

But to be ultimately saved to inherit life eternal necessitates positive response from us” I agree here as well, in that we must be reconciled, and we all will be. “Eternal life” meaning immortality after the eons have concluded and death has been abolished. We should, however, be aware that the terminology “eternal life” is not used in that regard. What the Bible mentions frequently is eonian life, and that is promised to the elect and will not be upon the vessels of indignation. During the eons (the last of which is the new earth eon), the lost will not enjoy either eonian life in expectation, as we presently do, nor will they enjoy immortality, which, of necessity, requires reconciliation, which is a mutual peace. Eonian life pertains only to the eons; after that, all are saved, because thus God has designated it to be, and it’s no surprise; God’s never surprised, so why should we imagine He would allow anyone to be lost, without first assuring He would find them? “What the Immortal has done can NEVER by any Mortal be undone!” Exactly, Christ died for the sake of all, and was satisfied with the fruits of His sacrifice, for God is the Savior of all and will draw all to Himself, will reconcile all to Himself, and will abolish death. No one can be dead, even millions of miles away, and death have been abolished. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Samie. God bless!

[dialoguewithus]

This is apparently from Concordant Publishing, maybe I transcribed a recording... :

Very few believers seem to recognize the emphasis placed on the faith of Jesus Christ in the evangel. Yet it is His faith and faithfulness in obedience even to the death of the cross that secures justification. Romans 3:21-28 and Galatians 2:15,16; 3:22, are passages that declare this quite clearly. None of us have perfect faith, but Christ’s faith was unfaltering, and because of that we can be sure that its results on our behalf are secure. Our faith is very important, but Christ’s faithful work is the vital thing and the very heart of the gospel. The difference between Christ’s faith and ours are many, but the principal difference is that His faith actually saves, since it led Him to the cross, while our faith merely introduces this salvation into our lives and consciousness.

The evangel of our salvation (Eph. 1:13) is fully true in itself, entirely apart from whether we believe all of it, some of it, or none of it. We do well, then, to stop all our ill-disguised proud boastings as to how it is that we, unlike other men, have been good enough to “accept Christ,” and thus have saved ourselves from wrath while obligating God to bless us. Such concepts are present, whether expressed or not, whenever salvation is conceived in a conditional way, whenever such “steps” are believed finally to occur because of man’s actions rather than God’s.

Such inner pride- though in most cases also exhibiting itself outwardly- may well pass for humility, but only among those of a similar disposition. However pleasantly it may be manifested, it is still a boasting in man, for it adds to the work of Christ. Consequently, the advocates of all such views are following a course that is destructive to faithful service to the Lord, and one’s appreciation of the truth of the evangel. For, however unintentionally, in denying the full significance and purpose of the cross of Christ, they have thus become its enemies (Phil. 3:19; see Gal. 5:11b).

If the evangel’s significance has become clouded to us through a mistaken belief that it is finally by our own obedience- the cross of Christ notwithstanding- that we fend off God’s indignation, we will lose much precious truth of great practical value. This is because, with such an outlook, our life of faith will necessarily become self-centered, instead of Christ-centered.

As we seek to share this evangel with others, may it be that we speak more and more of Christ and what He has done for us and less and less of ourselves.

[Samie]

Samie, if you were to read through this thread, I think you'd find answers to most of our disagreements. Of special interest might be “When is the Consummation?”, #515654. I will mention a few things: No one can be cut off from Christ’s Body, for “Now we are aware that God is working all together for the good of those who are loving God, who are called according to the purpose that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren. Now whom He designates beforehand, these He calls also, and whom He calls, these He justifies also; now whom He justifies, these He glorifies also." Ro 8:28-30.

The reason why I posted is precisely because I read posts in this thread which to me seem to go against what Scriptures say. Prominent among which, and again mentioned in your post I quote above, is your position that "No one can be cut off from Christ’s Body". The verses in Rom 8:28-30 do not support your contention nor any other verse in Scriptures. The last two mentioned divine acts of justifying and glorifying all came into effect when ALL were fashioned into the body of Christ on the cross and continue on throughout a person's earthly life.

But it is an entirely different story when a man dies. After a person dies, judgment is meted out (Heb 9:27) whether to blot his name out of the book of life or not. If that person lived a life of an overcomer, his name stays, otherwise his name gets blotted out (Rev 3:5). The blotting out is done by Christ Himself and in the process removes that person from being part of His body unto which he was, by God's gracious act on the cross (Eph 2:11-19), attached to. Revelation is replete with verses that only overcomers will enjoy eternity with God and Christ (see Rev 2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21; 21:7, 27). Those blotted out from the registry of heaven will be made to suffer the wrath of God (Rom 2:5-11; Rev 15:1; 19:15-21) and will ultimately be thrown into the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).

[Samie]

2 Pt. 3:12, 13 seems pretty clear that the new earth will replace the present earth; they won’t exist simultaneously. As for whether the lake of fire will be in the vicinity of new Jerusalem, I’m not prepared to say.

The New Earth is NOT this old earth made new. God will create a New Earth (Isa 6:17; Rev 21:1). The biblical imagery used is akin to the changing of garments (see Ps 102:24, 25; Heb 1:10-12). The old is taken off; a different one - definitely not the same old one taken off and refashioned - is put on, replacing the one taken off.

[Samie]

Eonian life pertains only to the eons; after that, all are saved, because thus God has designated it to be, and it’s no surprise; God’s never surprised, so why should we imagine He would allow anyone to be lost, without first assuring He would find them?

[dialoguewithus]

Samie, Revelation, like the other books of the Bible, with the exception of Paul's letters, were written for Israel. There are two gospels, and two bodies, Christ's body and the believers in Israel. Gal. 2:7-9. The overcomers in Israel will reign over the nations, just as they were promised of old. God will make it so, for He has promised to make a new covenant with them. Heb. 8:10-12. So "Jesus answered and said to him [Nicodemus], "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten anew, he can not perceive the kingdom of God. Nicodemus is saying to him, "How can a man, being a veteran, be begotten? He can not be entering into the womb of his mother a second time and be begotten! Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I am saying to you, If anyone should not be begotten of water and of spirit, he can not be entering into the kingdom of God. That which is begotten by the flesh is flesh, and that which is begotten by the spirit is spirit. You should not be marveling that I said to you, 'You [plural] must be begotten anew.'" Jn. 3:3-7. Israel must be born again, in order to enter God's kingdom. 1 Jn. is directed to Israel before Christ's return; it even mentions the mark of the beast- 1 Jn. 5:16. Israel's eonian allotment is earthly (Matt. 5:5), while that of the Body of Christ is heavenly (Phil. 3:20; Col. 1:5; 1 Thes. 4). We, as members of Christ's Body, experience a new creation, not a new birth. We are His body; Israel is His bride. The remnant of Israel's seed will face Jacob's trouble. Rev. 12:17; Jer. 30:7; Matt. 24:3-30. Israel received the law, and by the grace of God, they must obey it. Of course, without the new birth, they were always incapable of doing so. Ro. 5:20. The law doesn't apply to us; we are to obey the commandments given by the apostle of the nations, Paul, and be filled with God's love, and guided by His spirit.

My contention is that no one will "ultimately be thrown into the lake of fire", that is to say, to remain there forever, for death will be abolished for all mankind- 1 Cor. 15:20-28. Why would God call the lake of fire the second death, say He will abolish death (which He calls the last enemy), and not abolish the second death? And to top it all off, mention Adam, and that God will be All in all. Sounds like He would be dishonest to say the least.

We're obviously not going to agree on everything today, Samie. But let's keep studying...

[dialoguewithus]

"Where in Scriptures does it say this, or just even gives a hint? All were saved from sin and are being saved from sin, YES, Scriptures say so. But for ALL to be ultimately saved? I guess not."

Here are a few:

Jesus will be satisfied with the fruits of His sacrifice. Is. 53:11. What will it take for this to happen? We know that God “wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.” 1 Tim. 2:4. We know it’s not His will that even one should perish. Matt. 18:14. So we can be sure that God and Christ would not be satisfied if even one soul were eternally lost. How many has He promised to draw to Himself? Everyone; all creation will be reconciled. Jn. 12:32; Phil. 2:9-11; Ro. 10:13. God will one day be All in all (1 Cor. 15:20-28). To complete this goal, He will, in His grace, use “His Body, the complement of the One (Christ) completing the all in all.” Eph. 1:23. God will “…reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him [Christ], whether those on the earth or those in the heavens.” Col. 1:19, 20.

Samie, let's do an extreme hypothetical:

If you were the omnipotent Creator of all that is, and willed all to be saved, and you were love, and you were satisfied with the fruit of Christ's sacrifice, how many would you save?

Isaiah 26:12 (CLV)

"Yahweh, our Elohim, You are the Setter of welfare on the hearthstones for us, for, moreover, all our doings You do contrive for us."

How many would you give up on? Matthew 19:25, 26.

[Guest]

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. Rev 22:14,15

Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

How can God take a man's part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city and the things that are written in this book, and at the same time, let him in? The Bible doesn't seem to allow for that to happen, or suggest it in any way.

[Samie]

Samie, Revelation, like the other books of the Bible, with the exception of Paul's letters, were written for Israel. There are two gospels, and two bodies, Christ's body and the believers in Israel. Gal. 2:7-9. The overcomers in Israel will reign over the nations, just as they were promised of old. God will make it so, for He has promised to make a new covenant with them. Heb. 8:10-12.

[dialoguewithus]

"and from the things which are written in this book." The things written in Revelation relate principally to Israel, near the end of this eon, and during the eons of the eons (the millennium and the eon of the eons on the new earth). The consummation and universal reconciliation come later, and were not emphasized in God's revelations to Israel, with a few exceptions, such as Is. 45.

Ro. 8:18-23: “For I am reckoning that the sufferings of the current era do not deserve the glory about to be revealed for us. For the premonition of the creation is awaiting the unveiling of the sons of God. For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God. For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now. Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body.”

Who do you brethren think will be reconciled in the heavens? Col. 1:20.

[Guest]

So you don't think the book of Revelation has anything to do with you, right?

[dialoguewithus]

Gal. 6:16-

"And whoever shall observe the elements by this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, also on the Israel of God." I see two groups, Samie. Ephesians 2 describes Christ's Body, the ecclesia. Peter and James led the Jewish church, from which, THEORETICALLY and completely illogically, came the Roman Catholic church, which they call "universal". Thus the emphasis on law, which they claim to have changed. To me Ro. 11 describes how the olive tree/ light of the world had passed from Israel to the Body of Christ, for a time (maybe about 2,000 years), due to the fact that the nation as such rejected Christ and thus did not enter their promised kingdom in the first century. Not that God thought they would, but they were in the dark, as are we, concerning the dates and times. Acts 1:6, 7. All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is useful to us; some however is more applicable to us as Christ's Body than are other parts.

[dialoguewithus]

The book of Revelation has to do with what will take place on this earth and the coming earth in the future; it reveals many important truths for our learning. I feel it is even more important for Israel, although the time is not yet for them to recognize it as such.

[Guest]

I see

[rodgertutt]

#59 - THE GREATNESS OF SALVATION – WILLIAM MEALAND

(possibly the most eloquent of all the UR writers)

“A time is coming when Christ, the Beloved Himself, stands before His Father Who is Love, with the entire universe in train. What a thrilling reception, what a glorious presentation that will be! The great end for which the God of expectation waited, in perfect assurance, and for which Christ gave Himself. How fully will such a conclusion accord with the delight of His will!

There was a time when such greatness of salvation was more widely believed. But the imposed beliefs of the dark ages spoiled all this. Christendom was held as with iron bands in the grip of priest-ridden assent. And although their teaching is kept in the background, it is still there, giving that fatal bias which so clouds the perception of grace. Thus, we find resort to the limiting of Scripture by Scripture, to the seeing of finality when God’s purpose is in continuance, and the ignoring of those passages which so blessedly bring out the fullness and triumph of saving grace. But how happy should they be who, brought to a present belief, enjoy to the full the prospect of future salvation for all, even the reconciliation of the universe.

Stage upon stage, the Victor of Golgotha will move on His momentous and victorious way. Then will He show that ‘the Father has delivered all into His hands’ John 13:3. And in those capable hands, the world, even though it be by tumult, will be led to peace. What a perfect expression God’s grace finds in such a scene! What a realization of the truth attendant on so great a salvation! How rapturous a vision, too, of the One Who carried it to such a conclusion, Who sought until He found, Who loved until He won!”

[dialoguewithus]

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good

These well known words of advice, no, command, from our Creator seem so difficult to implement sometimes. Our strength may wane; the desired effect may seem so far off to our mortal senses. When we read of the grace (thanks) of loving our enemies, and doing good, we peek into the heart of the Infinite One, “for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.” Lk. 6:32-35. When we think of doing good, we dare not compare a lifetime of our efforts with the obedience of the One, through whom the many shall be constituted just. Ro. 5:19. He was “given up because of our offenses, and was roused because of our justifying”. Ro. 4:25. In Phil. 2:5-11 we see the outline of Christ’s obedience to the precept; we perceive the efficacy of infinite love and the power of good to overcome evil.

[rodgertutt]

Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good

These well known words of advice, no, command, from our Creator seem so difficult to implement sometimes. Our strength may wane; the desired effect may seem so far off to our mortal senses. When we read of the grace (thanks) of loving our enemies, and doing good, we peek into the heart of the Infinite One, “for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.” Lk. 6:32-35. When we think of doing good, we dare not compare a lifetime of our efforts with the obedience of the One, through whom the many shall be constituted just. Ro. 5:19. He was “given up because of our offenses, and was roused because of our justifying”. Ro. 4:25. In Phil. 2:5-11 we see the outline of Christ’s obedience to the precept; we perceive the efficacy of infinite love and the power of good to overcome evil.

ADDITIONAL THOUGHT

Some ask, Why does it say "the many" instead of "all" in Roman 5:19?

This is because the one disobedient man (Adam), and the One righteous Man (Christ) are put in a class by themselves. They are in contrast with "the many."

We may put it as follows:

The one disobedient man plus "the many" equals all mankind made sinners.

The One obedient Man plus "the many" equals all mankind made righteous.

That "the one" plus "the many" made sinners includes all mankind no one will deny.

Even so, "the One" plus "the many" made righteous is all-inclusive and guarantees the salvation of all mankind.

[rodgertutt]

#60 - GOD JUSTIFIES, VIVIFIES, SAVES AND RECONCILES ALL – E.G. JONES

“In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God ‘is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,’ and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the ‘all mankind.’ God’s will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.

My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

‘To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!’ ”