Snippets from the hard copy Universal Reconciliation library of rodger

[dialoguewithus]

“To state my contention clearly: The apocalyptic visions of judgment found in the New Testament are not intended to be descriptions of the end of the story. They are, simply, visions of judgment. The mistake has been to assume that this vision of judgment is a vision of the end. The result is the introduction of a radical asymmetry into the Biblical story. An asymmetry that, theologically and aesthetically, has and continues to cause a great deal of head scratching (e.g., Why would a loving God create a world where the vast majority are doomed to perdition?).

The reason this asymmetry is introduced into the story is, in my view, due to the fact that many readers of the New Testament lose touch with the prophetic imagination, the way the prophets described the end of the story, the events after Yahweh’s judgments. In the narrative arch of the prophetic imagination judgment and the ending of the story are distinct. They are not synonymous. After the harshest and most hellish of God’s punishments and judgments, the hesed of God is always in Israel’s future. In the prophetic imagination love wins.

In short, what I’m suggesting is that the visions of the “lake of fire” and of “God being all in all” do not have to be read against each other, where the moral asymmetry of judgment is read (as it generally is) as trumping the symmetry of the eschatological culmination on display in the Christological hymns. If we allow the narrative aesthetics of the prophets to guide our readings we find that we have two different pictures of two different parts of the story. Judgment followed by God reconciling “all things,” where “every tongue confesses that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.””

-Richard Beck http://twofriarsandafool.com/2011/07/universal-reconciliation-and-the-christological-hymns/

[rodgertutt]

#63 - THE AGES IN THE SCRIPTURES – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF

“Words are inadequate to describe the harm which has resulted from confounding the ages with eternity.

The Greek and Hebrew terms rendered ‘forever and ever,’ ‘eternal,’ ‘everlasting’ never refer to endlessness; but to a series of terminable periods know as age-times. These ages are periods in which God carries on remedial work, but they have a conclusion and pass away when the purpose to be accomplished in them has been realized. The ages are never synonymous with endlessness but always distinct therefrom.

That the words translated ‘forever and ever’ are associated with the hereafter of both believer and unbeliever is true; but in the case of both it is limited to the span of the ages, and has not the remotest reference to the final state of either. Therefore the dogmas of endless agony and endless sin rest on purely imaginary premises and are without the slightest shred of biblical support.”

[dialoguewithus]

"Therefore the dogmas of endless agony and endless sin rest on purely imaginary premises and are without the slightest shred of biblical support.”

The same goes for endless death, which is more applicable to the participants on this forum. Another practice, though, that many Christians have, is to read things into texts, so when they see that Satan and his two cohorts will be tormented "forever and ever" (for thus the terms are commonly "translated"), they then assume that so it will be with all the lost. The claim that eonian can mean something completely different than eon, the word from which it comes, is obviously flawed. "Daily" cannot mean "every year", nor can "year of years" mean "forever". An adjective describes a noun; the noun doesn't modify the adjective. It is illogical to claim that eon of the eons means something different for God than for man, because God is eternal. Yes, God is eternal, but just because God will receive "honor and glory for the eons of the eons" (1 Tim. 1:17) doesn't mean He doesn't receive the same now, nor that He won't be praised after the eons conclude. God is the God of the present, of yesterday, of tomorrow, of the eons (which He created), of that which preceded the eons, of the consummation, and of the endlessness to follow.

[rodgertutt]

#64 - “HELL” – VLADIMIR GELESNOFF

This writing is a detailed explanation of why the author makes the following statement.

“The barbarous and heathen dogma of endless torment is refuted by the very passages on which orthodoxy depends for its support.”

[dialoguewithus]

God is Able- He Will Do What He Said He Would Do

““He humbled Himself…even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him…that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow” (Ph. 2:8-9). Every knee bows because of the cross. The word “therefore” links the cross with worship. To deny genuine worship at the foot of the cross is to strip this passage of all its meaning. Worse, it strips the cross of its power to save and insults the Spirit of grace (He. 10:29). Talbott asks: Now just what is the power of the Cross, according to Paul? Is it the power of a conquering hero to compel His enemies to obey Him against their will? If that had been Paul’s doctrine, it would have been strange indeed, for God had no need of a crucifixion to compel obedience. He was quite capable of doing that all along. God sent His Son into the world, not as a conquering hero, but as a suffering servant; and the power that Jesus unleashed as He bled on the Cross was precisely the power of self-giving love, the power to overcome evil by transforming the wills and renewing the minds of the evil ones themselves.

The cross of Christ is the greatest power in the universe because it alone can melt the hearts of God’s enemies, and make them His friends. As John Milton, the famous 17th century English author wrote, “Who overcomes by force hath overcome but half his foe.

Salvation is involved in this confession. “Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore…work out your own salvation…for God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure” (Ph. 2:11-13). Again the word “therefore” is very significant, for it links the confession that Jesus is Lord directly with salvation.

God Himself works in them “to will.” Does God working in the hearts of His children to will to do His good pleasure mean only a forced submission? The question is its own refutation.

“When all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him that God may be all in all” (1Co. 15:28). The Greek word for “subject” is the same used for Christ. Can it be questioned that Christ’s submission is not freely given? Moreover, would God be all in subjects forcefully subjugated?

Some will say, “Of course they’ll confess then, it will all be too obvious. There will be no merit to confessing then.” But are we saved by merit? Where is boasting? It is excluded (Ro. 3:27). We, as the Church, have stripped this passage of its full glory. The bottom line is the love of God will do what His power alone could never do: conquer the hearts of His enemies and make them His friends.”

-A snippet from Hope Beyond Hell, by GERRY BEAUCHEMIN http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=5297&searchfor=||&type=&what=

[rodgertutt]

#65 - “ONE” AND “ALL” – JOHN ESSEX

“ ‘This is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth’ (1Tim. 2:3). This passage shows us what is the driving force behind salvation, the will of God. It is God Who is the Saviour, not us, and it is His will that is the decisive factor that results in the saving of all.

Many believers will have some to be saved, some to be reconciled; God will have all to be saved, all to be reconciled. He will be All in all, not all in some. Many insist on the word ‘some’ because it makes human endeavour a part of salvation; they will not recognize that human endeavour is, of itself, vanity, and that all is of God. He, the One, does everything for the all, that in each He may display His grace. Let us not claim for ourselves the glory of our salvation, but give it wholly to Him.”

[dialoguewithus]

The purpose of God remains as the choice of Him Who is calling

God works in us to will as well as to work for the sake of His delight- Phil. 2:13. When we believe in Christ, it is God’s work- Jn. 6:29. No one can come to Christ unless God draw him, and Christ will under no circumstances cast him out- Jn. 6:44, 37. Salvation is not out of us; it’s a present from God, our faith being graciously granted to us- Eph. 2:6-10; Phil. 1:29. God “chooses us in Him before the disruption of the world”, for He is merciful to whom He will- Eph. 1:4; Ro. 9.

“…be of a sane disposition, as God parts to each the measure of faith.” Ro. 12:3. 1 Cor. 4:7: “…Now what have you which you did not obtain? Now if you obtained it also, why are you boasting as though not obtaining?”

[dialoguewithus]

“HADES IS TRANSIENT

Hades is but a transient, like the sea. When, at the great white throne (Rev. 20:13,14) the sea yields up its dead, we bid it adieu, nevermore to meet again. The new earth knows no sea. So, too, with hades. It gives up its dead and is confined to the lake of fire, which is the second death. And is not this the reason for the Spirit's substitution of death for hades (1 Cor. 15:55) in the quotation from Hosea? We, indeed, will inaugurate the fulfillment of this grand prophecy but we will need to wait until the lake of fire itself disgorges its prey before we see the fulfillment of that triumph of triumphs. Yet so sure are we that our God is able to do all His pleasure, through the arm of His Christ, that even now we drag Death in the dust; we defy it; we dare to shout:

Swallowed up was Death by Victory

Where, O Death, is your victory?

Where, O Death, is your sting? (1 Cor. 15:55)

Yet we must acknowledge that Death has the victory now. Its sting has not yet been extracted. Taunt Death at any time before the consummation, when all are rescued from its domain, and it will point to captives more numerous than the redeemed of Christ. It would taunt Him with a counter fling and say: "Where, O Christ, is your victory? I hold more of mankind than you have vivified!" But, thanks to God, when we are made alive this exultant challenge will begin to be fulfilled.” - A snippet from ALL IN ALL by ADOLPH E. KNOCH

http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=

Hosea 13:14 (CLV)

…Where is your plague, O Death? Where is your sting, O Unseen?...

1 Corinthians 15:55 (CLV)

Where, O Death, is your victory? Where, O Death, is your sting?

[rodgertutt]

#66 - ON THESE THINGS MEDITATE – WILLIAM MEALAND

(possibly the most eloquent of all the UR writers)

In summing up his book he wrote

“Christ has truly made peace ‘through the blood of His cross.’ But the clear potency of it is yet to be seen when the ministry of reconciliation has accomplished its beneficial purpose. Then, the salvation of all is at last a wondrous reality. The tendency we see in God’s great stream of the eons has widened and enlarged until all are richly blessed by its satisfying power. Its noble volume, now freed of all obstacles, attains a majestic flow. And so, by seemingly strange and inexplicable ways, the God of all grace accomplishes His purpose. For ‘Grace not in rills, but cataracts rolls.’ How glorious the stream, and how salutary its miraculous power! Sin has affected all, all but One glorious, sinless Being, and He in marvelous grace triumphs completely over it.

There will not be a single creature, then, above or below, who is not ‘lost in wonder, love and praise.’ A scene truly to inspire, and continuously impel to grateful thanks. Transcendent grace indeed, in fullest flow.”

[Lysimachus]

Just when you think some new people come into this forum to provide us essential equipment to defend our doctrines, 99% of the time you get disappointed in the end when lo and behold you discover that there is some hidden agenda under their sleeve to slip in some heretical teaching.

Scripture are plain without any need to dance between the rain-drops and play theological hopscotch by explaining away the plain and simple meaning of the texts to try and somehow pretend that the doctrine of Universalism has ANY chance at being derived at from the Sacred Writings of Holy Writ:

• “As wax melts before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.” Psalms 68:2

  “For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth. For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.” Psalms 37:9,10

  “But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.” Psalms 37:20 (KJV)

  “But the wicked shall perish; the enemies of the Lord, like the splendor of the meadows, shall vanish, into smoke they shall vanish away.” Psalms 37:20 (NKJV)

  “But the transgressors shall be destroyed together; the future of the wicked shall be cut off.” Psalms 37:38

  “Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.” Psalms 21:9

And that's all folks.

Case closed!

[dialoguewithus]

Hi, Lysimachus

Any thoughts on who in the heavens will be reconciled to God? Col. 1:20.

[rodgertutt]

#67 - “ETERNAL LIFE” – DR. LOYAL F. HURLEY

“Hebrew and Greek scholars know that there is no word in the Bible corresponding to our ‘eternal,’ which, as commonly used among us, means unending. Most theologians know this too, but they don’t teach it. Only one who is willing to stand for TRUTH for truth’s sake and is willing to be branded a fanatic would dare to challenge the translation ‘eternal life.’

‘Eternal life,’ so called, pertains to relationship and quality. What men are urged to ‘lay hold of’ is ‘eonian life’ or ‘real life’ or ‘true life.’ It is not duration but quality. How tragic that truths like this are covered up by faulty translations!”

The only definition of ‘eternal life’ so-called, in the entire Bible is clearly stated in John 17:3, ‘And this is life eternal (eonian), that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.’ That describes relationship, not duration; it signifies quality, not quantity.”

[dialoguewithus]

We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind -1 Tim. 4:10

“All the earth shall bow down to You and shall make melody to You. They shall make melody to Your Name.” Ps. 66:4

“The praise of Yahweh, may my mouth speak, And may all flesh bless His holy Name For the eon and further.” Psalms 145:21

“Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just award for all mankind for life's justifying.” Romans 5:18

“And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.” Luke 3:6

“Moreover, from the eon I am He, and there is no rescuing from My hand. I will contrive, and who will reverse it?” Is. 43:13

“I am entreating, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, pleadings, thanksgiving be made for all mankind, for kings and all those being in a superior station, that we may be leading a mild and quiet life in all devoutness and gravity, for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God, Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.” 1 Tim. 2:1-4

“Find pleasure in Yahweh, And He shall give you the requests of your heart.” Psalms 37:4

“Now, hearing it, the disciples were tremendously astonished, saying, "Who, consequently, can be saved? Now, looking at them, Jesus said to them, “With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible.”” Matt. 19:25, 26

“Lo, I [am] Yahweh, Elohim of all flesh: For Me is anything too wonderful?” Jeremiah 32:27

“…But courage! I have conquered the world.” Jn. 16:33

“All the limits of the earth shall remember and return to Yahweh, And all the families of the nations shall bow down before Him.” Psalms 22:27

“And all the kings shall bow down to Him; All nations shall serve Him.” Psalms 72:11

“Raise a joyful shout to Yahweh, all the earth; Burst forth and be jubilant and make melody.” Ps. 98:4

[rodgertutt]

An appropriate snippet from

“ASK OF ME OF THINGS TO COME” – K. ROSS MCKAY

“WHO SHALL EVENTUALLY WORSHIP GOD?

Every creature Rev. 5:13

All flesh Isa. 66:23

All the ends of the world Psa. 22:27

All the kindreds of the nations Psa. 67:7

All the isles of the heathen Zep. 2:11

All the nations whom Thou hast made Psa. 86:9; Rev. 15:4

All the earth Psa. 66:4

The whole earth shall be filled with His glory Psa. 72:19; 97:7.”

[rodgertutt]

Hi, Lysimachus

Any thoughts on who in the heavens will be reconciled to God? Col. 1:20.

I am wondering what your answer will be too Lysimachus.

Have you got time to reply?

Rodger

[Lysimachus]

All the heavens will be reconciled to God, meaning, ALL the heavens IN Christ. Those who have not chosen Christ are OUTSIDE heavenly places. Christ has purchased the whole human race. Paul is speaking in a term of legal justification, where the human race has been bought with an infinite price, and all those who accept Christ will be accepted in the Beloved. But if you are outside of Christ, this does not apply to those who have rejected the truth.

Scripture with scripture.

Everyone will bow down in the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the millennium, but it does not mean they will be saved. It just means they will be forced to ACKNOWLEDGE that God is the just. But that doesn't make them saved. They will become ashes under the soles of our feet.

You cannot play the selectivity game and pick texts that you think match your preconceived opinions, and then ignore the rest.

Those scriptures that "seem" to be alluding to the fact that all men are saved, are not saying what you think they are saying. It's because Paul was a deep thinker, he used language which even Peter acknowledge was "hard to understand" (2 Peter 3:16). But if you are unstable, and unlearned, you will rest these seeming scripture that seem to convey that all men will be saved to your own destruction.

And that is the resounding truth, whether the two of you like it or not.

[Lysimachus]

We rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind -1 Tim. 4:10

“All the earth shall bow down to You and shall make melody to You. They shall make melody to Your Name.” Ps. 66:4

[dialoguewithus]

Col. 1:16-21

for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him, and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him. And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first, for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens. And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles

-So, Lysimachus, am I understanding you that you take all the "alls" literally except for the last one? And if "those in the heavens" refers to humans, as you seem to contend, then who are "those on the earth"? Also, do you realize that the word "reconcile" as used in verses 20 and 21 means a mutual harmonization, rather than a one-sided affair?

[dialoguewithus]

Originally Posted By: dialoguewithus

“Find pleasure in Yahweh, And He shall give you the requests of your heart.” Psalms 37:4

"Providing they are in accordance with His will, not our own will. This passage is speaking to those who's hearts are in tune with the desires and wants of the things of God. This verse does not teach universalism."

Then let's pray in accord with His will. 1 Tim. 2:1-6. Don't lose hope, Lysimachus- you might be pleasantly surprised one day!

[dialoguewithus]

"The entire world has been accepted, in a legal sense, in the beloved. This means that legally speaking, every single human being CAN be saved. But all those who accept Christ and are IN Christ, will partake of the salvation blessings."

So is it the case that every single human CAN be lost in Adam? Or is Adam's disobedience more powerful, universal, and effective than Christ's obedience? I'm afraid you're deifying man and dethroning God when you contend that His will is subject to ours.

[Guest]

Don't lose hope, Lysimachus-

I don't think Lysimachus was anywhere close to loosing hope. He has a good grasp on the scriptures...and reality.

[dialoguewithus]

Behold the Lamb of God, which takes away the sin of the world.

-Thanks for the discussion!

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: dialoguewithus

Don't lose hope, Lysimachus-

I don't think Lysimachus was anywhere close to loosing hope. He has a good grasp on the scriptures...and reality.

Good call RLH

[dialoguewithus]

Colossians 1:15-20

“How marvellous and how wonderful this scripture is. This is unquestionably and without any doubt the full Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. There is no bad news here whatsoever. Think about it. God will do what?

God will reconcile ALL things on earth and ALL things in heaven through Jesus Christ having made PEACE through the blood of His cross.

Please note that these verses, Colossians 1:15-20, are constructed in such a way that they leave absolutely no room for any doubt whatsoever that the word ALL can only mean ALL, without any exception. Apostle Paul, inspired by the Holy Spirit, repeats the word all seven times before coming to the key verse, verse 20, which says that God will reconcile all things to Himself through Jesus Christ.

If you believe verse 16, that Jesus Christ created all things in heaven and on earth, then you have no option but to also believe verse 20, which says that Jesus Christ will reconcile to God the Father, the same all things that He created, thus making peace with all of His creation.”

-A snippet from UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION SCRIPTURES

The Riches of Christ http://www.godsplanforall.com/7foundationalbiblicaltruths

[dialoguewithus]

“"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph.2:8,9). Why do these verses follow immediately the statement, "that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus"? And why do these verses begin with the word "for"? The word "for" shows a relationship between what precedes and what follows. In the ages to come, He will demonstrate His grace, for He has already shown it to us, His church, whom He will use as the demonstration.

No member of the church deserves to be saved by grace. Not one thing can we claim that has any merit in it. Some will say that at least our faith is our own. "For by grace are ye saved through faith"--and surely the faith is ours. But Paul will not have it so, for he adds, "and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God." Yes, God gives to us our faith, "according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith" (Rom.12:3). And He gives it to us through "Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith" (Heb.12:2). Not only does He give us grace: He gives us the faith to receive it. Otherwise we would still be in stubbornness or unbelief. "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that He might have mercy upon all" (Rom.11:32).

So God chooses a few undeserving sinners in this age through whom He will demonstrate His grace to other undeserving sinners, "in the ages to come." And the demonstration will be convincing, too. It will accomplish what God intends that it shall accomplish: "That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him" (Eph.1:10).”

-A snippet from The Outcome of Infinite Grace

Death Swallowed Up in Victory

By Dr. Loyal Hurley