BobRyan Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Since CARDW has several threads discussing the atheist POV vs the Gospel. Here is an interesting scenario. The atheist stands at the Great White Throne in Rev 20 and writes in his diary. Dear Diary - 1. Just found out that God is real and really did create the world in 7 days -- oops! 2. Just found out that God made laws for the entire universe and the penalty for rebellion was said to be the 2nd death.... oops! 3. Just found out that Adam and Eve were created sinless - chose to rebel against God's Law and so mankind was doomed to the 2nd death since they were the only two people on the planet...oops! 4. Just found out that Jesus Christ really was the Son of God and came to save mankind.... oops! dear diary - I now realize that if the beginning concepts were all true even though I doubted and disbelieved them - there is the strongest likelihood that the end of the Bible is all true as well.... big OOPS! Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igakusei Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 I always thought that the great white throne was that thing next to my bathtub. Quote I believe in life before death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Since CARDW has several threads discussing the atheist POV vs the Gospel. Here is an interesting scenario. The atheist stands at the Great White Throne in Rev 20 and writes in his diary. Dear Diary - 1. Just found out that God is real and really did create the world in 7 days -- oops! 2. Just found out that God made laws for the entire universe and the penalty for rebellion was said to be the 2nd death.... oops! 3. Just found out that Adam and Eve were created sinless - chose to rebel against God's Law and so mankind was doomed to the 2nd death since they were the only two people on the planet...oops! 4. Just found out that Jesus Christ really was the Son of God and came to save mankind.... oops! dear diary - I now realize that if the beginning concepts were all true even though I doubted and disbelieved them - there is the strongest likelihood that the end of the Bible is all true as well.... big OOPS! So it comes back to the whole premise of - be a Christian cause its less scary than not being one. Still does not make sense to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Igakusei Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Also, this. Edit: and this. Quote I believe in life before death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 3, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 3, 2011 ESV | ‎Je 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. ESV | ‎Is 30:21 And your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, “This is the way, walk in it,” when you turn to the right or when you turn to the left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 Since CARDW has several threads discussing the atheist POV vs the Gospel. Here is an interesting scenario. The atheist stands at the Great White Throne in Rev 20 and writes in his diary. Dear Diary - 1. Just found out that God is real and really did create the world in 7 days -- oops! 2. Just found out that God made laws for the entire universe and the penalty for rebellion was said to be the 2nd death.... oops! 3. Just found out that Adam and Eve were created sinless - chose to rebel against God's Law and so mankind was doomed to the 2nd death since they were the only two people on the planet...oops! 4. Just found out that Jesus Christ really was the Son of God and came to save mankind.... oops! dear diary - I now realize that if the beginning concepts were all true even though I doubted and disbelieved them - there is the strongest likelihood that the end of the Bible is all true as well.... big OOPS! Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted December 3, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 3, 2011 ESV | Je 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. Love that verse-- thank God for that truth. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Originally Posted By: BobRyan Since CARDW has several threads discussing the atheist POV vs the Gospel. Here is an interesting scenario. The atheist stands at the Great White Throne in Rev 20 and writes in his diary. Dear Diary - 1. Just found out that God is real and really did create the world in 7 days -- oops! 2. Just found out that God made laws for the entire universe and the penalty for rebellion was said to be the 2nd death.... oops! 3. Just found out that Adam and Eve were created sinless - chose to rebel against God's Law and so mankind was doomed to the 2nd death since they were the only two people on the planet...oops! 4. Just found out that Jesus Christ really was the Son of God and came to save mankind.... oops! dear diary - I now realize that if the beginning concepts were all true even though I doubted and disbelieved them - there is the strongest likelihood that the end of the Bible is all true as well.... big OOPS! Originally Posted By: EmptyCross So it comes back to the whole premise of - be a Christian cause its less scary than not being one. Still does not make sense to me. The reason Christ paid the second death in our behalf is so He could save us from it. Your response is of the form "yes but that is not good enough reason to miss out on the lake of fire". Not sure you are really thinking that one through. By contrast the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" and even the Bible warns the sinner to "flee from the wrath to come". The entire Bible ends with the Wrath of God on the wicked in the lake of fire (Rev 20 ) contrasted to eternal life in the new Earth - paradise, the tree of life restored to mankind, and the city of heaven itself come down to earth in Rev 21 and Rev 22. On another one of CARDW's "why believe the Gospel" threads - I point out that God made mankind to live in a perfect sinless, deathless, eternal state in harmony with God and the angels and having a future that included exploration of the entire sinless universe. This is the condition "From which mankind fell". By contrast - the suffering death and misery in the world today is in fact "atheist heaven" because from the atheist POV - this is wayyy better than living in caves and then being eaten by predators or competitors. in Christ, Bob Wow that was an awesome twist to what I said Bob. I look at my post and I see nothing about lakes, fires, and/or missing out on anything. I just don't think being scared is a reason to worship any deity. Thats not honest worship. Its doing your duty to save your backside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo ESV | Je 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. Love that verse-- thank God for that truth. Yet it does not always work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo ESV | Je 29:13 You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart. Love that verse-- thank God for that truth. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 No I was thinking of my own experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 When you read in Hebrews 12 that Esau found no place for repentance even though he sought for it with tears - what comes to mind? in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Either he was more concerned with getting caught, you know repentance out of fear. Or he was getting the raw end of a broken deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 In our Sabbath School lesson today we were reminded of the plea of Abraham to God "oh that Ishmael might live before you". God said "NO ... but I have heard your prayer regarding Ishmael - he will be father of 12 princes and a great nation". Think about it - Abraham's desire to have children and to have bazillions of descendents would be fulfilled in Ishmael as well as in Isaac. However in Isaac "the promise" that "in you will all the nations be blessed" would only be fulfilled in Isaac. God so loved the "World" that He gave. There is no "God so loved the FEW" that He gave. Though we all have different roles in God's great plan - the love of God is for ALL and Jesus Christ is the "light that coming into the world enlightens every man" John 1. But in John 1 we have the sad lament "he came to his OWN and his OWN received him not". We have to receive God on HIS terms - not on ours. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted December 3, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 3, 2011 Yet it does not always work. ESV | ‎Nu 23:19 God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind. Has he said, and will he not do it? Or has he spoken, and will he not fulfill it? ESV | ‎Heb 6:18 so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. NIV84 | ‎Jn 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Quote: The reason Christ paid the second death in our behalf is so He could save us from it. So, Christians don't die... second time Quote: By contrast the Holy Spirit "convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" and even the Bible warns the sinner to "flee from the wrath to come". What sin would you consider to be worthy of death? I.E. If you have a teenage son who lied, do you think it would be fair to have him put to death for it? Quote: The entire Bible ends with the Wrath of God on the wicked in the lake of fire (Rev 20 ) contrasted to eternal life in the new Earth - paradise, the tree of life restored to mankind, and the city of heaven itself come down to earth in Rev 21 and Rev 22. Who are the "wicked"? Are these the people who don't believe based on lack of proper evidence? Or are those people like Hitler, and Stalin? Perhaps you would put those in the same group? Quote: On another one of CARDW's "why believe the Gospel" threads - I point out that God made mankind to live in a perfect sinless, deathless, eternal state in harmony with God and the angels and having a future that included exploration of the entire sinless universe. How do you know that? How do you know that that story is not merely a metaphor for birth, childhood (not knowing good from evil), and adulthood (knowing good and evil, and being cast out of that condition of being a child and comfort of your parents home). Quote: This is the condition "From which mankind fell". You have no idea. You really don't. You don't know what's happening right this morning in your neighbour's house . But you claim to know for sure that that story was not some metaphor which attempts to explain problems of life. You claim that it's literal truth, and that a way to fix things is for someone to die. It makes 0 sense. Quote: By contrast - the suffering death and misery in the world today is in fact "atheist heaven" because from the atheist POV - this is wayyy better than living in caves and then being eaten by predators or competitors. I think a mature person would makes one to realize that suffering has always been, and will always be a part of human being. Human being without suffering is meaningless. If there's no suffering, then there's no pleasure. Suffering is comparative to bliss and pleasure. Without opposites, the single definitions are meaningless. What is good without evil? If everything is good, then what is good? It wouldn't make any sense. That's why the world in our mind is perceived through opposing concepts. Without something to compare to something it simply would not make sense. It would be just a state of homogenous being, ironically the being that people describe God prior to creation of the Universe. Suffering is not negative or positive. It just is, and it's inconvenient. We can deal with it, by making up stories about how it happened, and how we need to be saved from it... or we can deal with it right here, right now, without waiting for a train no come. That's where empathy plays in our collective existence. Either you are empathetic, and you help alleviate suffering, or you are not, and blame the suffering on those who are hurt, and then provide the solution in form of a prayer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. T. Cross Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 In our Sabbath School lesson today we were reminded of the plea of Abraham to God "oh that Ishmael might live before you". God said "NO ... but I have heard your prayer regarding Ishmael - he will be father of 12 princes and a great nation". Think about it - Abraham's desire to have children and to have bazillions of descendents would be fulfilled in Ishmael as well as in Isaac. However in Isaac "the promise" that "in you will all the nations be blessed" would only be fulfilled in Isaac. God so loved the "World" that He gave. There is no "God so loved the FEW" that He gave. Though we all have different roles in God's great plan - the love of God is for ALL and Jesus Christ is the "light that coming into the world enlightens every man" John 1. But in John 1 we have the sad lament "he came to his OWN and his OWN received him not". We have to receive God on HIS terms - not on ours. in Christ, Bob Not sure if that is in response to my post or not. If so I don't really see the relevance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Quote: We have to receive God on HIS terms - not on ours. And that's the thing. How do we know that it's His terms, and not the terms of traditional church, or religious leadership ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 Turns out the Bible is the word of God. Be that as it may - my point was to contrast what is in the Bible with the world view of atheists. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted December 3, 2011 Share Posted December 3, 2011 Quote: Turns out the Bible is the word of God. Did God tell you that, or did clergy through the Bible, which they wrote? Did God come down, and personally tell you that Bible is the 100% His word, and that there's nothing to which He would object? If not, then you are simply assuming. Quote: Be that as it may - my point was to contrast what is in the Bible with the world view of atheists. Fair enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted December 3, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 3, 2011 Christian's diary at the Great White Throne: Oops, turns out I'd read the wrong bits literally and figuratively. God loves me anyway, but he's pretty frustrated that I wasted all that energy denying the way he really created the world. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 Christian and Athiest diary at the GWT -- Dear Diary - Turns out the Bible was right - about creation, about salvation and about the lake of fire... ===================================== For one of them - this will be in the "good news" section. The choice is up to you where it will show up for you. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 Quote: Turns out the Bible is the word of God. Did God tell you that, or did clergy through the Bible, which they wrote? Did God come down, and personally tell you that Bible is the 100% His word, and that there's nothing to which He would object? If not, then you are simply assuming. If your argument is that I need to treat you as an atheist and explain why the Bible is true while other books of religion are not. Fair enough. We would have started that conversation with Daniel 2, 7,8,9 and a discussion about how over 2500 years of real world history was accurately predicted. Sorta the way the atheist/agnostic Walter Veith (and other agnostics I have known) made the transition from agnostic to Christian. But in this case Daniel 2 is not my only point of persuasion. I also have the Romans 1 argument that condemns both the TE and the Atheist POV when it comes to "observations in nature". This is an element that is at work - regardless if I mention it or not. It is the same way with the John 16 point about the Holy Spirit convicting the world (yes - even atheists) of "sin and righteousness and judgment". Another point that works in favor of the Bible since "no scripture is a matter of one persons interpretation but rather holy men of old moved by the Spirit of God spoke from God" 2Pet 1:20-21 in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted December 3, 2011 Author Share Posted December 3, 2011 Some have argued that if the atheist simply "says it is not true" enough - that God will "go away". That is a limiting strategy - as my OP points out. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted December 3, 2011 Moderators Share Posted December 3, 2011 The inability to even *consider* the possibility that the purpose of God's existence is *not* to prove Bob Ryan was right about everything all along... is worrying. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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