The Way to Heaven

[teresaq]

Is Jesus the only way to heaven?

Or is His character the only way to heaven?

[Gibs]

Jesus says that He is

We can grow to attain to reflect His character and Image fully and long to be perfectly like Him.

I cannot answer this question in this forum as I'd like without use of His Word. But we are to attain toward His Character and be perfect in this world as is expected of us. Many want to call it "works", and it is not Us that works but He in us.

I don't like to be limited to not use the Holy word.

[phkrause]

I'd say Jesus is, does he not say I am the way? Follow me?

[teresaq]

That's an interesting perspective, dgrimm60, can't say that I expected that. LOL

Maybe the question would be, is there a difference between "Jesus" and His character?

[teresaq]

What is it about Jesus that makes Him the only way?

[teresaq]

If Jesus, Himself, is the only way to heaven, how is it that heathen who have never heard of Jesus will be in heaven? :)

[Tom Wetmore]

I have thought about that question a number of times. Jesus is the keeper of the keys to heaven and hell and he said the Father put that judgment in his hands. The old idea of St. Peter being the gate keeper of heaven is of course not Biblical. It is Jesus. He is the one who decides and the one who welcomes the saved in. That moment may be the heathen person's first encounter, but it is enough.

[Gibs]

John 14:6, Jesus declares He is the Way The Truth and The Life.

Then He made a way that we could be in Him and He in us, we then have His Divine Nature and have put on His Character which is revealed in the 10 commandments and they are embedded now in our hearts also and our will is now His Will.

He is ALL THINGS to us!

1 John 4:4

[Woody]

If a person gets to heaven by becoming perfect - does he need to ask Jesus's permission to go through the pearly gates? After all he has earned the right supposedly.

[teresaq]

Not meaning to be condescending, but I think some are not able to back away (from their own bent in thinking) and think about the question.

It isn't just heathen that will be saved who have never met Jesus. There will be athiests, evolutionists, new-agers, homosexuals, Sunday-keepers, etc. What is it, according to the scriptures, that these people will have in common?

[Gibs]

teresaq(sda),

No one can and ever will have earned any right to go through one of those 12 gates into Heaven.

It is a gift for being His and Only His. Only the Overcomer will meet the requirements He Has given. No one can be saved until all is surrendered and the whole heart given. We must die a death of the old man, woman and be born again in Him, One in Him.

He told us Himself that it would be the few. He told us Himself it would be the overcomers. The following list is the ones Jesus Himself made.

Re 2:7 , Re 2:11, Re 2:17, Re 2:26, Re 3:5, Re 3:12, Re 3:21

There is more by John and others.

The gate is "strait" and narrow and so is the path and Jesus walked it before us and He in us it is our priviledge to walk also victoriously. That's why He came to make the way for us to do that.

He'll stand by us if we stand by Him!

Christ in us is the Hope of Glory. Col 1:27 and 1 John 4:4

[teresaq]

You might be one of those that needs to "back away" and reread who wrote what. :)

[Gibs]

teresaq(sda),

You know by now that I am a Christian not for the "new age" view of the salvation issue.

There is no fear in love but there sure is in disobedience. True love also does no wrong and finds the way Jesus has made to be pleasant and the way of love. I think we define Love much different.

Some are seeing the world has evolved into a much better place. I don't and see it actually near the culmination at the summit of how evil it can get.

But I am sure you may not be of my thinking there either but I don't condemn you and you shouldn't me.

Pleasing Him and no man is the goal I think for us all.

[teresaq]

Gibs,

What part of,

you

are

addressing

the

wrong

person,

do you not understand?

If you actually read what I posted

you would see

I was not the one

who said anything

about gates and

earning one's way into heaven.

[Gibs]

teresaq(sda),

I had just I guess took it from this comment you were going along with that,

. . .

Well forgive me I pray and I am glad that you are not.

And my answer if I didn't give it before to your original question, No doubt Jesus is the only way and when we become fully His we have His Character and Love what He loves. Our will is also His will.

1 John 4:4

[teresaq]

Yes, Jesus is the way, the truth and the life.

But for all the heathen, etc. who have never had a bible nor heard of the name of Jesus, how would He be "the way, the truth and the life" for them that would enable them to get into heaven?

The question again is,

What is it, according to the scriptures, that these people will have in common?

I think the recent video Lazarus shared contributes to this thread.

[Kevin H]

Only in God is life original and unborrowed. God gives life to his creation but this life is dependent on our connection with the lifegiver just as a light bulb is dependent on it's powersource to continue to light.

This is the first thing that we need to realize. From this stems the nature of what (or rather who) hell fire is. If we think that the judgement is us standing before the judgement bar of God and either get the message "Yes you can come into heaven" and we wipe the sweat from our brow and with joy go into heaven. Or else being told that we have to go to hell instead and get dragged off screaming and kicking, we want to know what the magic is to get the one and not the other. The Christian solution to this delema is to say the magic words about Jesus. There is the assurance of Salvation because we said those words. They are saved, the investigative judgment is only a hangup that does not fit this mold. Of course it leaves little room for people like Abraham Joshua Heshel, Anwar Saddat and others. Plus too often this group has added to this that you need to become an anti-gay, make the government make abortion illegal(and too frequently this also becomes wanting to take the Catholic Churche's attitude towards birth control) and have the government enforce our religion Republican. Thus having a form of Godlyness but denying the power there of.

It also causes a problem when you say look at Nazi Germany where several of the commendants of concentration camps were Lutheran ministers as well and would give wonderful worship services on the atonment of Christ, and the guards would at Christmas and Easter cry as they would sing about Jesus' birth and resurection. Yet they had no problem working their inmates to death, and sending them to the gas chambers. In the above framework the people going into the gas chambers singing the psalms and calling the Holy One Blessed be he to deliver them are lost because they did not say the correct words about Jesus. And those who sent them into the gas chambers are saved because they asked Jesus to save them.

However, if the "Fire" of hell is God's bright glorious love that radiates from God's being, every person, Christian, Jew, Athiest etc. have a reaction. First we are all attracted to this beauty. Jesus is our deepest desire, the desire of ages, the desire of all nations, the one beloved of women. However, as when Jesus was on earth some longed to be with him and others wanted to get rid of him. The Holy Spirit works with everyone pointing everyone to Jesus. We make choices with in our context. things like the Investigative Judgment, discoveries in Biblical Studies, archaeology, linguistics etc. are tools that can help us deepen our knowlege of Jesus. In relationships we find different levels from those who met but distance keeps them appart excpt for a soft spot in their memories and heart. Then there is letters that bring about more of a connection between lovers, but takes days (and even weeks or months as we look back in history) yet, say for our soldiers in say W.W.II gave that connection with their loved one. Then there were phonecalls, followed by affordable phone calls, and e-mail/instant messaging. And of course the greatest is being together in person. However there are these different forms of helping the relationship when we cannot be physically together.

The heaven-hell situation is the reunion and how we choose to respond to the reunion. As long as choose to be with the life giver we will be with him. The Holy Spirit works with everyone. Being saved in "The name of Jesus" means being saved in the character of Jesus. It is characteristic of Jesus to love us, to want to be with us, to reach out to us. However it is this great awesome pure power that is reaching out to us, and it is not a weak sticky sweet sementalism love, but a powerful love that encourages us to be the best that we can be. We will all see ourselves in light of that spotless purety of Jesus and will see the contrast. We will want to be with Jesus yet all of us ask "who shall be able to stand?" and the answer is "my grace is sufficient for you" Jesus tells ALL of us those words. However we find 2 responses to those words. Some say "YES, His grace is sufficient for me, this is my God, I have longed for him and he will save me!!!" others say "Jesus is lieing, his grace is not sufficient for me" and they run to the rocks and caves and say "Hide us from the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb"

To pray in the "Name of Jesus" means to trust in this grace and to pray for the types of things that Jesus would pray for. When a Jew, or Hindu, or Buddiest prays for the types of things that Jesus would pray for, their heart is in the character of Jesus and they are praying in the name of Jesus. When an Athiest who may not go on their knees, but find in their hearts a reaching out to the same things that Jesus was reaching out to, they are praying in the name of Jesus. When a "Christian" uses the words "In Jesus name amen" but prays for things that Jesus would not be praying for, they are not praying in the name of Jesus. Those who may have felt an anger in their heart at the word "Jesus" as Christians were persecuting them, yet reaching out to God for salvation as they were in the gas chambers, we believe that Jesus is God and thus they were reaching out to Jesus for salvation. At the end of time the consentration camp guards who said their prayers every night, went to church every Sunday, read their Bible and Luther faithfully, as they see Jesus at the end they will recognize that they saw him before. They did not notice it before. We only interpet about 126 bites of information per second and this was not one of the 126 of what they noticed at the moment, but they realize that everytime they turned on the gas one of the group was the one they now see sitting on the throne. And these guards will be heartbroken. One may trust in the words "My grace is sufficient for you" and say "worthy is the lamb" and appoloziges to the others who he harmed. another other being equally heartbroken, equally repentant of the act and equally horrified that they did something so horrible, does not trust that his grace is sufficient for him and he is in a delemma of wanting to come and accept this grace,but refusing to yield to the desire to ask forgiveness from him and their other victims, fearing that the one who was in the gas chamber is now in the position of revenge and will get them and they decide they would rather have the pleasue of sulking over how life is against them, and choose to pull back away from the life giver.

I hope this helps.

[Kevin H]

[in response to Woody's questions...]

No, because God treats us all the same at the end, it is how we respond to being with God that makes the difference between heaven or hell. The trinity live in a righteousness by faith relationship with each other, not dependent upon their works. The most "perfect" person, who does not want to be this relationship with the lifegiver are not forced to live there. The cross teaches us that the most perfect person can choose to be sepperated from God and die, yet the resurection teaches us that if someone chooses to be with God, all the sins of the world cannot keep them appart. The reason why there is no resurection from the second death is because they chose that death of sepperation. Jesus shows that even the second death does not need to be eternal if only they would let God share his grace with them.

We need to realize the battle of the two selves with in us. That in us that wants to love the world as Jesus has loved it, and that which thinks we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. We all need to realize that there is something that likes to be wounded and to nurse our wounds and stroke our wounds. I once heard a lecture about a story where the young girl in the story would sometimes picture herself dieing in the rose garden and how everyone would feel so sorry for her, dieing so young and pretty in the rose garden. There is something in us that finds that sulking attractive. The idea of "poor me, poor me, pour me a drink" and we can find this "poor me, poor me, pour me a drink" taking over our lives. The desire to die in the rose garden and the power it would have over others on the dieing so young and beautiful, we need to see the way we go for contemp rather than loving the world as Jesus has loved it. Other wise we will choose the one pleasure over our deepest desire and greater pleasure at the end.

[Bravus]

I'm allergic to the definite article ('the'). Much more comfortable with 'A Way To Heaven' or 'Ways To Heaven'.

Yes, that's massively unorthodox in Christian circles.

[Woody]

Not unorthodox to true Christian circles.

[teresaq]

OK...the point I am trying to get at, what I believe the scriptures are saying, is that Christ's character is the only way to heaven, regardless of what a person is, or isn't. Jesus is the only way into heaven in that the character He had is the only way. If Jesus had ever given into Satan there would be no way into heaven.

That is the only thing that makes sense to me if heathen who have never heard of the scriptures are going to be there, not to mention atheists, Hindus, Pagans, and all the rest.

(In that sense, Bravus, it is the only way.) Having the character/mind/heart of Christ is the common denominator of all who will see heaven.

That is what ties all the scriptures together for me. Those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked, visited those in prison, etc., in short those who did the works of Christ in the same Spirit He did it in.

I think you kinda got the idea Kevin...

[Bravus]

Teresa, I can respond in a couple of ways.

One is within the Christian framework... and within that, your proposal is unorthodox, since most Christians seem to believe only those who actually acknowledge Christ will make it to heaven. The question of whether living a good life in the absence of that will get you there is a vexed one, and includes some odd situations like it's better to *not* hear about Christ in terms of chance of salvation, under your view.

The other is my own framework, which tries to look broader than just the Christian. Within the Bible, there are these exclusivity claims that Jesus is the *only* way... but other religions have those too. Since it's largely a historical accident of where and when I was born that I grew up Christian, it no longer makes sense to me to accept *any* of these exclusivity claims. Rather, 'ways' to heaven.

[teresaq]

I'm not sure about it being "better to not hear about Christ"...tho sometimes I wonder...

I think I have a purely biblical view, some texts that are rarely mentioned or thought of...

In this passage the church tried to throw Jesus off a cliff,

Luke 4:25-30

Romans 2:14-29 is very clear and inescapable.

I think the bible is full of texts like these. Yes, Jesus character/mind/heart is the way, the truth and the life.

Thanks for keeping it on topic. :)

[Kevin H]

Bravus: everyone has some knowlege of Christ. It is how we do with the knowlege that we have and if we choose to deepen and want to know more and more about Jesus. Those who's knowlege of Jesus is slim are often dealing with superstitions and the resurection for them will be the blessed surprise instead of daily living with the blessed hope and allowing the blessed hope to comfort us during the hard periods of life. They do not have this comfort but have to just deal with the harness of life even if they awaken to and are reunited with loved ones at the blessed surprise.

Also, a little more knowlege of Jesus has the danger of misunderstandings of hell fire. We want a connection with Jesus, we are saved by this connection with Jesus, however the more we know about Jesus the more and more freedom we can get from superstition and misunderstandings.

This is why we get to enjoy the Investigative Judgment, we live in a time where we can enjoy the deeper knowlege of the Bible and to learn more, again as if two lovers are sepperated and the role things such as letters, phone calls, e-mails and IMs can use to bring about a connection and prepare us for the reunion. The Anti-Investigative Judgment people tend to have an attitude of "Hey, I've already gotten the engagement ring, we will be married when he returns, so why do I want letters, phone calls, e-mails or IM's? That would just be a tool to give him reasons to want to break up with me so I'm going to trust in the fact that we are engaged and I don't want to hear a thing from him until the wedding."

It is in deeper understanding of Jesus that we can learn more about him. Contradictions in the Bible shows us how God is willing to work with us where we are. The truth about hell fire gives a joy, knowing about health can increase the chances of living longer to enjoy our friends and family more and to be a part of their lifes instead of spending too much time as just a memory. Knowing about how to treat others, Biblical Principles that have been discovered by people such as Dr. William Glasser's Choice theory and his 7 habits of miserable people can help us avoid the 7 habits. Eli Siegel's theory of the opposits and the fight between respect and contempt can help us understand the opposits in Scripture and Mrs. White and in life. C. S. Lewis' "The Great Divorce" teaches different attitudes that we tend to go towards that will keep us citizens of hell so that we can avoid them and not let them prevent us from enjoying heaven. Jack Canfield's "The Success Principles" and Dr. Ellis' "Cognative Therapy" (with Glassers and Siegel's thought) can help us to focus on what is true and good and be open to the Holy Spirit to do his work in our life.

Knowing about Babylon, Medio-persia, Greece, Rome, Holy Roman Empire/Papal supremicy, the deadly wound, the deadly wound healed by the nations uniting under economic cooperation will help us know about events we are facing and to hopefully make better choices.

Yes, someone who has not heard of Jesus except through the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart, or heard of him but in ways that still had other baggage so they choose not to become Christians, may be responding the best they can from what they have, but let's help them to develope a deeper and even deeper relationship with Jesus. Lets let people know that they have a savour, that there are events happening in the workd that we can make certan choices with and to live with the blessed hope to help us in daily life instead of just suffering alone and then eventually having the blessed surprise.

[Gail]

What about the shed blood of Jesus for our redemption? To me that is the difference between Christianity and other religions.

I guess that has to do with His character, an attitude of such love that surrenders itself to die for another. It is such a love that agreed to take the guilt and blame for another's sins. How many of us would do that?