Acts 8

[BibleOnly]

Someone finally answered me on Acts 8, but with the general torrent of sarcasm and insults headed my way on that thread, it was locked before I could reply. So, trying to start again, and hoping everyone remembers what Spirit they claim to be of, here is my response.

Quote:

Acts 8:14-18

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John, [15] who came down and prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, [16] for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. [17] Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. [18] Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

Notice that it says these believers had only been baptized in the name of Jesus. They hadn't been baptized in the name of the Holy Spriit.

If that's all that had to happen, was a different incantation, then why were they not baptised again ? Why did they need to call someone to baptise them in a different name ? How does this change that they did not have the Spirit, visibly, and then had the Spirit, visibly ?

Quote:

The simple answer to your question is that the new believers must have given some sort of evidence that they had received the Holy Spirit. They were changed. The Holy Spirit's coming into our lives always makes a change in us. If there's no change-- if we're still the same as we were before we accepted Jesus and were baptized into His name--- it's a sign that the Holy Spirit is not in our lives. In the case of the new believers in Acts 8, it is possible that they gave evidence of various gifts of the Spirit, including the speaking in tongues.

Given that tongues were universally given in Acts 2, 10, and 19, every time evidence is nominated, I'd say it was probably a given.

Quote:

The evidences of the Holy Spirit aren't by any means limited to the speaking in tongues, however. It would be a mistake to think that a person must speak in tongues in order to show evidence of having received the Holy Spirit.

The bible says there are different things the Spirit does but, in contrast, the same manifestation is given to every one. In Acts, this was tongues. The Bible also describes why every Christian needs this gift, it's the only way to 'pray in the Spirit' that the Bible ever nominates.

Quote:

An even more important and dramatic sign is that whereas a person gave evidence of the works of the flesh, now he gives evidence of the fruit of the Spirit. See Gal. 5: 19-25.

How can something that non Christians have, be evidence ? I am not saying the fruits don't matter, they are non negotiable. But, they are fruits, they grow, they are not always immediately evident in their fullness. Nor are they unique to Christians and as such, they can not be proof of anything, only their absence of proof of a life not walking in the Spirit.

As Paul says:

1 Cor. 13:1-8

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. .... [8] Love never ends.... as for tongues, they will cease....

Yes, you are right. To cover the bits you did not quote:

Paul is talking about tongues in the church, and makes clear in these verses that we can all speak in tongues, but we should control use of this gift in the church. Nevertheless, he says this is a prayer language that only God understands, which we should use in our prayer

Tongues will cease when Jesus returns, and therefore love, which is eternal, matters more. Yet, in this age, tongues is important, that's why God gave and gives it, because we need it now, even if we will not then.

[cheddar]

Talk about someone who does not want to see clear evidence from the Bible!

I remember when I was a kid my step father’s parents belonged to a Pentecostal church and we went there one time. During the service some of the people went up front and started speaking in that ‘gibberish language’ that you speak so highly of – I’ve never been so scared in my life. We never went back there ever again!

Speaking in tongues is speaking in a different language. To believe that tongues is some ‘gibberish language’ only diminishes our faith in God and makes him out to be someone with lesser intelligence than a human being.

The tongues that you speak of come from Satan not God.

[miz3]

Talk about someone who does not want to see clear evidence from the Bible!

I remember when I was a kid my step father’s parents belonged to a Pentecostal church and we went there one time. During the service some of the people went up front and started speaking in that ‘gibberish language’ that you speak so highly of – I’ve never been so scared in my life. We never went back there ever again!

Speaking in tongues is speaking in a different language. To believe that tongues is some ‘gibberish language’ only diminishes our faith in God and makes him out to be someone with lesser intelligence than a human being.

The tongues that you speak of come from Satan not God.

[Q.E.D.]

So, trying to start again, and hoping everyone remembers what Spirit they claim to be of, here is my response.

[John317]

Paul is talking about tongues in the church, and makes clear in these verses that we can all speak in tongues, but we should control use of this gift in the church. Nevertheless, he says this is a prayer language that only God understands, which we should use in our prayer

"Tongues" is a language used for the communciation of the gospel and was given among the gifts of the Spirit in the first century in order to spread the gospel. It isn't gibberish. Even in modern times there have been instances where the gift of tongues was given when it necessary to communicate the gospel to people who couldn't otherwise have understood what was being said.

[John317]

The Bible also describes why every Christian needs this gift, it's the only way to 'pray in the Spirit' that the Bible ever nominates.

Are you saying that if someone prays in a language they understand, it can't be a prayer in the Spirit?

So, the only way anyone can pray in the Spirit is to make unintelligible sounds?

Where does Scripture teach this?

[Q.E.D.]

So, trying to start again, and hoping everyone remembers what Spirit they claim to be of, here is my response.

[Q.E.D.]

So, trying to start again, and hoping everyone remembers what Spirit they claim to be of, here is my response.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

How does this change that they did not have the Spirit, visibly, and then had the Spirit, visibly

Pehaps I missed something. Where does it say that there was a visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit at the laying on of hands?

[17] Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. [18] Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

“Tuck in a love gift of only $10 and receive a special Jesus prayer cloth. . .”

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

The simple answer to your question is that the new believers must have given some sort of evidence that they had received the Holy Spirit. They were changed. The Holy Spirit's coming into our lives always makes a change in us. If there's no change-- if we're still the same as we were before we accepted Jesus and were baptized into His name--- it's a sign that the Holy Spirit is not in our lives. In the case of the new believers in Acts 8, it is possible that they gave evidence of various gifts of the Spirit, including the speaking in tongues.

[BibleOnly]

Talk about someone who does not want to see clear evidence from the Bible!

[BibleOnly]

So everyone that is baptised in the name of the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues? I have seen a lot of people baptised in the name of the Holy Spirti and not a single one ever spoke in tongues. Have you seen it?

"Can I unwrap my gift now. . ."

Q.E.D.

No, everyone who is baptised in the Holy Spirit, which these verses say is not guaranteed just because someone was water baptised, speaks in tongues. Acts 19 also confirms this.

[BibleOnly]

Because of the fact that water baptism is not the same as and is completely separate from the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The had already had water baptism.

"16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:"(Luke 3:16)

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

The Bible also describes why every Christian needs this gift, it's the only way to 'pray in the Spirit' that the Bible ever nominates.

Are you saying that if someone prays in a language they understand, it can't be a prayer in the Spirit?

So, the only way anyone can pray in the Spirit is to make unintelligible sounds?

Where does Scripture teach this?

In 1 Cor 14. Where else is 'prayer in the Spirit' defined to not be a meaningless statement ? How do you CHOOSE to pray in the Spirit ?

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Paul is talking about tongues in the church, and makes clear in these verses that we can all speak in tongues, but we should control use of this gift in the church. Nevertheless, he says this is a prayer language that only God understands, which we should use in our prayer

"Tongues" is a language used for the communciation of the gospel and was given among the gifts of the Spirit in the first century in order to spread the gospel. It isn't gibberish. Even in modern times there have been instances where the gift of tongues was given when it necessary to communicate the gospel to people who couldn't otherwise have understood what was being said.

This is never true in the Bible. How would you know that it was true today, if you could ask the people in question, to know that they understood ? 1 Cor 14:2 says that only God understands tongues, because that is who we are speaking to. There is no record of the gospel being preached in tongues, although some were understood in Acts 2, Peter still had to get up and preach in the common language

[BibleOnly]

Pehaps I missed something. Where does it say that there was a visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit at the laying on of hands?

[17] Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. [18] Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

“Tuck in a love gift of only $10 and receive a special Jesus prayer cloth. . .”

Q.E.D.

So what do you claim that Simon saw and offered money to give ? And it does not answer the question, how did they know they did not have the Spirit ?

[Q.E.D.]

Pehaps I missed something. Where does it say that there was a visible manifestation of the Holy Spirit at the laying on of hands?

[17] Then they laid their hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. [18] Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was given through the laying on of the apostles' hands, he offered them money,

“Tuck in a love gift of only $10 and receive a special Jesus prayer cloth. . .”

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

So everyone that is baptised in the name of the Holy Spirit speaks in tongues? I have seen a lot of people baptised in the name of the Holy Spirti and not a single one ever spoke in tongues. Have you seen it?

"Can I unwrap my gift now. . ."

Q.E.D.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

So what do you claim that Simon saw and offered money to give?

Uhhhh. . .Simon saw Peter and John lay pray while laying hands on them so that they could receive the Holy Spirit.

Logic would dictate that Peter and John did not lay hands on Simon so Simon offered money to Peter and John for them to pray and lay hands on him.

[BibleOnly]

(quote=BibleOnly) No, everyone who is baptised in the Holy Spirit, which these verses say is not guaranteed just because someone was water baptised, speaks in tongues. Acts 19 also confirms this.

Could someone please translate the above statement by BibleOnly or restate it in the King's English for me?

"English seemed fairly simple before the 80's. . ."

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

No, everyone who is baptised in the Holy Spirit, which these verses say is not guaranteed just because someone was water baptised, speaks in tongues. Acts 19 also confirms this.

Could someone please translate the above statement by BibleOnly or restate it in the King's English for me?

"English seemed fairly simple before the 80's. . ."

Q.E.D.

[BibleOnly]

Thankyou! I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit but I don't speak in tongues. So Methinks that not everyone speaks in tongues.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

Uhhhh. . .Simon saw Peter and John lay pray while laying hands on them so that they could receive the Holy Spirit.

Logic would dictate that Peter and John did not lay hands on Simon so Simon offered money to Peter and John for them to pray and lay hands on him.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Once again you use logic to contradict the Bible.

Could someone please explain to me how I did the above???

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

The Bible says he offered money to be able to GIVE the Spirit' date=' not to GET it.

Methinks Simon would have to GET it before he could GIVE it.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

The And, it still ignores the question. What did Simon see ?

I’ll try again. . . Simon saw Peter and John lay hands on those that were baptized in water.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Going back a step, how did they know these baptised believers DIDN'T have the Spirit ?

I’ll try again. . .Peter and John asked them “Have you received the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

How would YOU know if a baptised believer doesn't have the Spirit?

I could ask them and they would tell me.

How would YOU know if a baptized believer doesn’t have the Spirit? Would you stalk them until they go into rapturous glossolalia?

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Wow. That's amazing.

I know, I know, often simple things are amazing!

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

So, when they were asked this question, how would they have known the answer?

Simple. . . They had never heard of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

How did YOU know you had the Spirit?

Simple. . .I was baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

And, why did Peter and John have to ask, when they were sent for on the basis that these people didn't have the Spirit?

Sent for on the basis that they didn't have the spirit????

Please point that out in the verse below. . .

Acts 8:14

Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent to them Peter and John

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Looks to me like you've not even read the verses properly.

Perhaps the Holy Spirit could send you to help me. . .

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

You're really struggling here, sorry.

Ahh. . . the struggle. . . I hear that “Islam” is Arabic for “struggle.” Don’t be sorry, I will likely survive and soon this will all be a dim memory.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

The simple fact is, this verse says you can tell if a baptised believer has the Spirit or not, and Simon offered money because of what he saw.

I must have dosed off somewhere and missed that. Could you explain to us how YOU can tell if a baptized believer has the Spirit or not and also if you would be so kind as to tell us exactly what Simon supposedly saw? Remember to use the verses in Acts 8.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

He was used to playing tricks on people, seeing people just become convinced they had something with no evidence was old hat to him.

[/quote']

I think I will pass on this one. . .

“The lion sleeps tonight. . .”

Q.E.D.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Paul is talking about tongues in the church, and makes clear in these verses that we can all speak in tongues, but we should control use of this gift in the church. Nevertheless, he says this is a prayer language that only God understands, which we should use in our prayer

"Tongues" is a language used for the communciation of the gospel and was given among the gifts of the Spirit in the first century in order to spread the gospel. It isn't gibberish. Even in modern times there have been instances where the gift of tongues was given when it necessary to communicate the gospel to people who couldn't otherwise have understood what was being said.

Paul at one point explains that it needs to be "translated" to be meaningful. It seems to be be about edification and understanding. The original manifestation of speaking in tongues in Act 2 brought about understanding. Everyone spoke in their own language and those touched by the Holy Spirit heard it in their own language. Some onlookers that had not received the Holy Spirit, only heard nonsense and babbling that they thought was drunkenness.

I recall hearing of a modern day story of just such an example of "speaking in tongues". I believe it happened to H.M.S. Richards, Jr. at a camp meeting. He delivered a stirring sermon in English without a translator. Afterwards a Hispanic lady came up to him to thank him for his message that was so very timely and meaningful for her at that point in her life. I believe the story was that she either had to speak to him with a translator or spoke with very limited English. And she complimented him on his perfect Spanish and noted he didn't even have a hint of an accent.

That's what it is about to me. And lesser manifestations are the many people gifted with fluency in multiple languages.

[BibleOnly]

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

Once again you use logic to contradict the Bible.

Could someone please explain to me how I did the above???

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

Thankyou! I have been baptised in the Holy Spirit but I don't speak in tongues. So Methinks that not everyone speaks in tongues.

Bible Only Sez: How do you know ?

Q.E.D. Responds: I told you, "I don't speak in tongues. I think I would know if I did.

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

Oh, really? I didn’t know that! And just how can one tell if a believer is a Christian or not in an immediate way? I thought all believers were Christians and all Christians were believers.

Bible Only Sez: And that is why I pointed out Acts 8 and 19. In Acts 19, Paul asks 'did you receive the Holy Spirit since you believed' ? Only later does he ask what they had believed. So, he says they are not the same. Acts 8 shows they are not the same. The people believed and did not have the Spirit. So, the Bible disagrees with you.

Q.E.D. Responds: I don't think so

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

Do you have a fixation on watching what people do on Saturday?

Bible Only Sez: ROTFL - others here have said the Sabbath is the sign of the Spirit

Q.E.D. Responds: Do you believe everything someone tells you?

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

or if their personality has changed,

Why are you concerned with personality change?

Bible Only Sez: I am sure you're one of those who told me that the fruits of the Spirit are the evidence of the Spirit

Q.E.D. Responds: That is what the King James says. I have no problem with that.

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

Originally Posted By: BibleOnly

“not least because people who are not Christians can do both of those things.”

I suppose people can do whatever they like in America without someone accusing them of being a Christian. ( It really makes on shudder at the thought of being accused of being a Christian )

Bible Only Sez: No-one can speak in tongues unless God gives them the ability, because that is what it means. That is my point.

Q.E.D. Responds: So that is your point. . . Now I can rest in peace.

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

I'm a Christain and I can prove it. . ."

Q.E.D. [/quote']

Bible Only Sez: Well, go ahead then :-)

This small gold cross could be pinned to my shirt and surely that will fool a lot of people. . .

Q.E.D.